was just curious if anyone has been interested in making a super smash bros clone for the nes/snes i have quite a bit of skill in artwork both 2d and 3d and would like to be apart of a project based on said game. i have a bit of scripting / code knowledge but looking through the docs here this (6502?) language is way over my head. my main experience has been with photoshop/gimp, 3ds max, rpg maker engines, a bit of game maker, and the "quake" c language.
anyone who has nes / snes programming know how and would like to work on a project like this please contact me either here or via email (
ceriux@gmail.com)
ceriux wrote:
i have a bit of scripting / code knowledge but looking through the docs here this (6502?) language is way over my head.
The 6502 is the name of the NES's processor. The SNES uses the 65816, which from a coding perspective, is 6502 assembly with more instructions I think and some other stuff, but it's generally the same. You can just call it 65xx assembly.
ceriux wrote:
my main experience has been with photoshop/gimp, 3ds max, rpg maker engines, a bit of game maker, and the "quake" c language.
How does photoshop, gimp, or 3ds max have anything to do with programming? I don't have a clue how the rpg maker engines look, but I bet it's very high level.
ceriux wrote:
anyone who has nes / snes programming know how and would like to work on a project like this please contact me either here or via email (
ceriux@gmail.com)
Do you know the limitations of each system? That way, you could choose whatever system best suits you needs. There seem to be quite a bit of people here who try to make something on the NES, but then get angry that they don't have 2 scrolling fields or more than 25 colors onscreen.
One thing I always wondered is has anyone ever tried to make a thread that just asked for help, kind of like you'd ask someone how to do something and someone would do it? Kind of like just state the problem and eventually someone will take care of it? The problem I could see from this is if people got sidetracked. It would just be like a game development thread.
sorry if i was too vague i have a very limited experience with coding/scripting being that through the rpg maker , game maker , and quakec.
iv reviewed the tutorials and documents iv found around these forums and have come to the conclusion the programming language used to program nes games is above my skill level and understanding when it comes to programing.
i am more of a digital artist , and since i feel i will not be able to ever actually produce anything code wise to a project i was curious if someone would be willing to start a project with me ( or has one that i can join ) to contribute my usable skill set towards.
i am aware the nes and snes both have limitations in fact i feel its more enjoyable to make things for games with limitations. which hopefully seeing that i have experience with modding quake 1 , that might be fairly obvious? although the limitations for quake are not nearly as close to those of the nes i have made artwork for games with low spec sprites as well. such for the game called
Nestalgiahow ever being used to pc game engines im not exactly sure how sprites and coloring ect work for the nes. are they all grey scale and the programmer assigns a palette color? i guess specific things like that. with a few things addressed i could still easily create the artwork required for a nes or snes project. it would be fun and challenging.
i would like to thank you for such a speedy reply and the interest you've taken in my thread.
ceriux wrote:
i would like to thank you for such a speedy reply and the interest you've taken in my thread.
I'm pretty much always here.
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God dang! Maybe I should settle down...
ceriux wrote:
how ever being used to pc game engines im not exactly sure how sprites and coloring ect work for the nes. are they all grey scale and the programmer assigns a palette color? i guess specific things like that.
I guess you could say that? The pictures are just information, and when they are put to the screen, they always have to use a color palette out of the 4 available on the NES. So basically, a paletteless picture is not grayscale, because it's not even displayable because it will always use one of the palettes. If you don't mess with any of the palette bits, it will still be a palette because "0" is a palette.
ceriux wrote:
iv reviewed the tutorials and documents iv found around these forums and have come to the conclusion the programming language used to program nes games is above my skill level and understanding when it comes to programing.
Well, it's hardest getting started, but you don't have to do it if you don't want to of course. I remember the time I wanted to do SNES programming the first time, I didn't find any tutorials or anything but I found something called "Nerdy Nights" for the NES. I felt like looking at it because I thought it would be useful for helping me get into SNES development, but I didn't get it in the slightest. It's the people here who've helped me.
ceriux wrote:
i am more of a digital artist , and since i feel i will not be able to ever actually produce anything code wise to a project i was curious if someone would be willing to start a project with me ( or has one that i can join ) to contribute my usable skill set towards.
Have you done any artwork that you would be willing to show?
Oops, I meant related to the project.
oh no, but i could make some mock ups with a bit of time.. i wont lie to you i didnt want to start anything with out anyones interest. would you like to see a literal super smash bros mock up or one with my own ideas (characters, stages, ect) based off the same gameplay?
Definitely original characters and original stages, so as not to anger any lawyers.
I've mooted a platform fighter for NES several times before. Here's the plan I've considered:
- Start with characters from famous pre-1923 fairy tales (Grimm, Andersen, Collodi, Baum, etc.) to avoid copyrights on famous video game characters. Could a grass-type like Pinocchio or Scarecrow defeat a fire-type like Fire-eater or Wicked Witch of the West?
- Characters should be about 40 to 48 characters tall. This is noticeably smaller than a typical Street Fighter II character and closer to a Shaq-Fu character (or indeed Thomas from Kung Fu), but it's small enough to allow maneuvering around a playfield.
- It might take 150 to 200 frames to do an entire moveset.
But each time, it has gone nowhere because nobody has been willing to post a sprite sheet for even one character's complete moveset as a proof of concept. So if you can make these, I'd be willing to go into more detail about what would be needed to make it fit the NES or Super NES.
- One level (512x224 pixels, 256x224 visible at once)
- One character's moveset
tepples wrote:
Definitely original characters and original stages, so as not to anger any lawyers.
You're really afraid of copyright... (Not that that's a bad thing.)
ceriux wrote:
would you like to see a literal super smash bros mock up or one with my own ideas (characters, stages, ect) based off the same gameplay?
I wouldn't mind. I probably would be of that much help because I really haven't done much of anything myself. I've currently been working on a game engine for a run and gun, but it can be adapted into a SMB type game relatively easily because it's pretty flexible. I still have a large amount of things I haven't even gotten to yet though, like an animation engine, or something for checking collisions and another thing for making stuff appear in the level when the screen scrolls. I have an overwhelming amount still left to do, but in terms of making it, I'm probably a little over halfway done, but it took me almost a year to get here.
tile dimensions , sprite dimensions , and background image info?
Are you asking for an opinion or something? (never mind, I understand.) The NES runs at 256x240, and the SNES runs at 256x224, if that's what you were wondering. Tiles on both systems are 8x8 pixels, but only every 16x16 pixel area in the background can have its own palette, without the use of the MMC5. Sprites on the NES can be either 64 8x8 or 8x16 sized sprites and there can only be one or the other onscreen at a time, but you cannot have more than 8 sprites together on the same line horizontally before flicker sets in. With the SNES, you have 128 8x8, 16x16, 32x32 and 64x64 sized sprites, but the width of all the sprites horizontally on the same line cannot be over 272 pixels long without this kind of weird effect where any extra pixels just don't get displayed. You can also only have 2 different sprite sizes onscreen at a time. On the SNES, all the sprite tile data has to fit into an area that is equivalent to 8 64x64 sized sprites, so just don't use 64x64 sized sprites because they offer no advantage over 4 32x32 sized sprites. A lot of objects in both NES and SNES games are actually many sprites together. For example, Mario in the original Super Mario Bros is 16x32 pixels large. Since the game is using 8x8 sized sprites, he is made of 8 sprites. On the NES, you have 4 palettes that consist of 4 colors, a set for the BG and a set for the sprites, but the first color in each palette is the transparent color, kind of like the "alpha channel". Whatever the first color of the first BG palette is, the back of the screen is, so it is actually possible to have 4 colors per BG palette, (even though one of the colors is always going to be shared) but since sprites are generally over the BG, the transparent color for sprites will just show whatever is behind so BGs can kind of use 4 colors, (but one of the colors in each of the 4 palettes is the same) and sprites can only really use 3 colors. On the SNES, the same basic rules apply with transparent colors and whatnot except you have a set of 8 16 color palettes for the BGs and sprites. Again, the first color of each palette is transparent. The SNES can actually change the amount of colors the BGs use per tile, in that there's a 256 color mode that actually also uses the sprite palettes and the first color of each 16 color palette is not invisible for it, only the first color of the whole thing. There's also another mode where it's like the NES in where it has 4 color palettes, and the first two normally 16 color palettes are turned into 8 4 color palettes. Again, the first color in each now 4 color palette is transparent, but is shared among all the palettes if the layer is in the background. The SNES has 8 different graphical modes that generally balance out the number of colors per color palette (it's called bits per pixel, and it makes sense if you see how the tiles are stored) and the number of BG layers. The most useful modes are 1 and 3, which I will tell you about. It's not hard to look up the others, but they generally aren't as good. (Mode 7 is good for racing games though.)
Mode 1: 2 16 color palette BGs (4bpp) with 1 4 color palette BG. (2bpp)
Mode 3: 1 256 color BG (8bpp) with 1 16 color BG. (4bpp)
There's more to it than that, but just ask questions.
ceriux wrote:
tile dimensions , sprite dimensions , and background image info?
Quick summary of NES graphical capabilities:
-256 8x8-pixel tiles for the background;
-256 8x8-pixel tiles for sprites;
-54 colors to chose from;
-1 background color (color 0);
-4 3-color palettes (colors 1, 2 and 3) for the background;
-4 3-color palettes (colors 1, 2 and 3) for sprites;
-color 0 is always transparent on sprites;
-2 256x240-pixel backgrounds (can be arranged side by side or stacked vertically);
-palettes are applied to 16x16-pixel background areas;
-sprites can be 8x8 pixels (only 1 tile) or 8x16 pixels (using 2 consecutive tiles);
-sprites can be flipped vertically and horizontally;
-64 sprites per frame;
-only 8 sprites can be drawn per scanline;
These are the rules as originally designed by Nintendo, but some of them can be bent with programming tricks and/or special hardware in the cartridge.
thank you all for this information its useful ill try and start a mockup tomorrow after work.
i just want to let everyone know the left click on my mouse randomly decided to stop working... iv ordered a new mouse and as soon as i receive it ill update the post.
okay got my mouse this isnt really much but iv started messing around with character design ideas... this is a 32x32 sprite...
please feel free to coach me if iv done anything wrong when it comes to nes sprites.
this was a quick try. maybe i should move to to a larger sprite size?
the character is like a praying mantis type alien. currently unanimated? i just dont want to progress any furtherif something should be changed.
ceriux wrote:
i should move to to a larger sprite size?
Definitely not. The NES can only handle 64 sprite pixels before flicker sets in, and I'm not even sure if you would want this to be 4 player or not. By the way though, the picture isn't working.
One thing though is that you could aim for more human shaped characters and have a 32x48 sized sprite.
Espozo wrote:
ceriux wrote:
i should move to to a larger sprite size?
Definitely not. The NES can only handle 64 sprite pixels before flicker sets in, and I'm not even sure if you would want this to be 4 player or not. By the way though, the picture isn't working.
One thing though is that you could aim for more human shaped characters and have a 32x48 sized sprite.
thanks for the tip. a new question if anyone knows, is there any tools that someone might suggest for nes sprite making?
i also just uploaded the sprite to the previous post.
EDIT:quick try at the 32x48 sprite.
That's a very good sprite.
I just draw everything in MS Paint, and convert to the NES format as a last step. But if you're after a tile editor, YY-CHR appears to be the best option. Even if you're drawing somewhere else, you can paste the graphics into YY-CHR to convert them to NES format.
ceriux wrote:
quick try at the 32x48 sprite.
That looks good! You shouldn't have to worry about having the characters limbs extending past 32 pixels when punching or kicking because it will only last for a split second and it is often unlikely that both character's limbs will be on the same level. Even if you are having the game be 4 player, you might actually be able to get by with characters that size because if it's like SSB, then many times, characters aren't at the same height because they are on different platforms. Now that I think about it, even without the sprite limit, you probably wouldn't want the characters much if not any bigger because the whole stage has to fit on the screen because there obviously cannot be any zooming.
tokumaru wrote:
I just draw everything in MS Paint
I use gimp. It works just fine to me, and you can zoom in really close and set up grids to help you.
Here's how 4 of your characters would fit onscreen:
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That might actually be too big! This is about how 24x40 sized characters would look, but they'd obviously be a little smaller because of how they wouldn't fill up the entire space. One downside is that the characters would no longer perfectly use 8x16 sized sprites, but you could always use them and leave about 8 pixels of blank space on top. Otherwise, you'd use 8x8 sized sprites and each character would be 15 sprites x 5 = 60, so you'd have about 0 room for anything else. With 8x16 sized sprites, you'd have 9 sprites x 4 = 36, but you'd have 3 blank tiles over the top of the character. Off course, not all characters would be the same size, so you could have a really tall guy be 24x48 or you could have a wider person be 32x40.
Anyway, this is about how it would look:
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Espozo wrote:
Even if you are having the game be 4 player, you might actually be able to get by with characters that size because if it's like SSB, then many times, characters aren't at the same height because they are on different platforms.
Can someone take a screenshot of Final Destination in some
Smash Bros. game at an appropriate zoom level to confirm this?
tepples wrote:
Can someone take a screenshot of Final Destination in some Smash Bros. game at an appropriate zoom level to confirm this?
Thanks smart a**.
Look up super smash bros fight on google and there are a ton of examples where characters aren't on the same level. A little flicker doesn't kill anyone anyway.
But more seriously, comparing your character's scale against Mario in a screenshot of Battlefield might help us understand how much of a stage will fit in 256x224 pixels.
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The largest character is Ike, who is 24x32, (24 because of the sword, but you only need an extra 8x8 for that) and the smallest is Mario, who is 16x24. You could actually probably get by using 8x8 sprites instead of 8x16.
(The picture is 256 pixels wide and 211 tall, with what would be the top clipped off because the NES doesn't have a perfect 4:3 aspect ratio.)
Espozo wrote:
Even if you are having the game be 4 player, you might actually be able to get by with characters that size because if it's like SSB, then many times, characters aren't at the same height because they are on different platforms.
There will be flicker, there's no way around that. You'll probably have to design the levels in a way that encourages and facilitates vertical movement, to avoid the situation where 4 characters are standing on the same platform. 3 should be OK for brief periods.
Quote:
I use gimp.
I'm of the opinion that it's better to draw sprites in whatever software you already use for drawing, because you're already used to the tools and workflow. Tile editors usually don't have tools that are as versatile, and their interfaces tend to encourage the drawing of blocky graphics.
Quote:
One downside is that the characters would no longer perfectly use 8x16 sized sprites, but you could always use them and leave about 8 pixels of blank space on top.
I usually prefer to leave blank space on the bottom, because when characters are standing, the blank sprites will be inside the ground, where there usually aren't any actual objects. On the other hand, keeping the blank space on the top gets it quickly out of the way when jumping.
Here's a crappy thing I did. I basically just traced over Mario in the screenshot with 3 colors:
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Espozo wrote:
Here's a crappy thing I did.
He's a little blocky and undetailed (I would certainly go for larger sprites), but the choice of colors is pretty good to represent modern Mario.
With 4 characters on screen, I can see no other way (that doesn't require sprite layering or doesn't result in extremely monochrome designs) than to give each one their own optimized palette, leaving nothing free for effects, items and such. Any suggestions on how to handle that?
Effects are easier, since they are too quick and abstract to draw attention if they're slightly miscolored, but items have to be easily discernible.
maybe make it 1v1 only ? does the nes even have a multi-tap?
ceriux wrote:
maybe make it 1v1 only ?
But then it's not much different from a regular fighting game.
Quote:
does the nes even have a multi-tap?
Yes.
tokumaru wrote:
ceriux wrote:
maybe make it 1v1 only ?
But then it's not much different from a regular fighting game.
Of course it's different, so long as you're not on Final Destination (or Omega stages in
Super Smash Bros. For). The whole stage doesn't
quite have to fit on the screen, though switching to a half-size version of the stage might help once a match comes to long-distance projectile wars.
tepples wrote:
The whole stage doesn't quite have to fit on the screen, though switching to a half-size version of the stage might help once a match comes to long-distance projectile wars.
So you mean that if everyone is too far away from each other, a new half sized picture of the stage will be loaded along with half sized characters? I can't help but think that this project is better suited for the SNES. (You could use Mode 7 to scale the map and just use software sprite scaling. You'll only have 1 BG, but you'd only have 1 on the NES anyway. There shouldn't be a problem with palettes.)
i just think it would be more interesting to see what we can accomplish within the original nes within its limitations. then maybe make an (our platform fighter 2) on snes. the goal should be that it has platforming elements , decent visuals , and fun gameplay. imo it doesnt have to follow ssb to a T just take inspiration from it.
Espozo wrote:
I can't help but think that this project is better suited for the SNES.
Of course it's better suited for the SNES, but trying to make a console do what it wasn't supposed to is half the fun! =)
btw we might want to take a look at joust. the gameplay isnt what im looking for but the level design really reminds me of ssb.
http://gamesdbase.com/Media/SYSTEM/Acor ... rnsoft.jpg
Nintendo's clone of Joust is called Balloon Fight, and Villager from Super Smash Bros. For is a blend of the player characters from Animal Crossing and Balloon Fight.
im just saying it has 4+ moving things on screen at once,
the bird + the player is red,blue,orange, and white (four colors).three colors red,green,brown.
and it has multiple changing platforms (dynamic levels?), i just think looking at it as what has worked so far might be a little helpful.
a better screenshot. im pretty sure the last screenshot i used wasnt from the nes version.
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/UZF4kIGnFEM/maxresdefault.jpgnvm apparently that one wasnt either, this one is though:
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/QY1U-hKrXYM/maxresdefault.jpg
tokumaru wrote:
leaving nothing free for effects, items and such. Any suggestions on how to handle that?
Effects are easier, since they are too quick and abstract to draw attention if they're slightly miscolored, but items have to be easily discernible.
Well, Megaman was perfectly fine with recoloring E-tanks and 1ups. It would be reasonable. Effects could be color-coded to the character who generated them.
Or could have forced team-style coloring so that the palettes are standard across characters (so you have a red, a blue, a green, and a ...). It's not like SSB didn't allow character palette selection normally.
ehhh another sprite 24x32 as suggested.
i like him, but hes a bit bland.
Size wise, it looks perfect. However, I can't help but think that the man was originally sitting down operating a machine gun turret or something that was facing directly at the screen, and then decided to turn his head left and twist his right leg. I do have to say though, it does look good for a windup for a punch. One thing I would try to do is if this is meant to be an idle animation, make his waist turned more at what he's looking at and also his arms in that we should be able to see the outside of his right arm. Also, are his pants supposed to be baggy, or are they mostly tight? I am getting the impression that his right pant leg is bigger. Finally, are you using the NES's color palette, because I do not remember there being two browns so close together. Sorry if I sound kind of harsh.
I really like the detail in the face, especially considering at the low resolution it's at.
i honestly do not have the nes palette , do you have it available for photoshop? also ill see what i can do with your suggestions.
as i was looking for ideas, i took reference from the character in challenge of the dragon (i think?)
ceriux wrote:
i honestly do not have the nes palette , do you have it available for photoshop?
Well, I have a picture: (I use gimp)
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changed him into a boxer i was thinking "brawler" when i was making the first. heres the updated one.
this is the nes palette i used... if its the correct one.
Much better!
By the way, the gray gradient at the bottom of the picture doesn't exist in the NES's palette. The NES doesn't necessarily have a standard palette, as I think I've heard that the colors are not RGB values but rather NTSC signals or something, so it changes from TV to TV. Off course, this doesn't mean you could choose purple, expecting it to look green on another TV, but you get the point. There's a little leeway. (The palette you choose appears to be accurate enough.)
ehhh this is what we would have with current sprite dimensions i think, correct me if im wrong.
perhaps we should try sprites that are half the size of 24x32?
sorry to bump topic but no thoughts?
It's not bumping if the post you made was less than one day latter.
I think you mean to say double posting, but I really don't think people here care too bad if you do either one. Some people on other forums act like Nazis about it for some reason.
Anyway, you could try something like making the sprite dimensions the same, but making the characters in it smaller. Some characters might be able to be 16x24. Look at the Battlefield picture and see how many pixels wide and tall the characters are. Mario fits in a 16x24 sized box, while I think I remember Ike fitting in a 24x32 sized one, but he didn't occupy the whole space. The reason the dimensions need to be in multiples of 8 is because of how sprites are 8x8, but the actual character inside can be 20x28 if you wanted it to be.
Alright I just feel like the level seems too small for 4 people. 2 might be okay, but not 4. I'll see what I can do with smaller dimensions.
What about the level, any problems? Can I do more , should I do less?
ceriux wrote:
What about the level, any problems? Can I do more , should I do less?
I'd say more. You can try to add a background, as only having one BG layer won't look odd when there is no scrolling. The layout you have for that stage could be fine for something like a battlefield type stage, but you can make it fancier if you want to.
this is a work in progress so far... sorry its taking me a bit , RL and what not...