Hello,
I'm in search of anyone with any type of knowledge about a motherboard I came across recently and no one seems to have any idea what it is.
The console is a smooth top/bottom low serial N0068*** with a very odd motherboard inside. The board is a 1985 NES CPU-02 with most of the chips reading toshiba Japan on them. It's nothing like I've ever seen and no one has any idea what it is
I can send photos of the board and chips to anyone who would like to check it out
Feel free to attach photos to a post here.
One thing we'd like to know first is what letter replaces "Q" in the large chips marked RP2A03Q and RP2C02Q.
Here's some info
Smooth top/bottom
Serial number N0068942
Washington State customer service & warranty phone number
Motherboard 1985 NES CPU-02
CPU - RP2A03E
PPU - RP2C02E-0
Lockout chip 3193 1985 Nintendo 8543 A
5 smaller chips that read toshiba japan
2 Japan TTMM2115BP-15
If you'd be willing to post pictures of the mainboard to the forum, I'd love to see them.
We have no prior evidence of revisions
less than NES-CPU-04, so a contradictory bit of evidence would be really nifty. (You can successfully search for images of NES-CPU-XX, where XX is 04, 05, 06, 07, 09, 10, 11)
Thank you very much!
One question: do you see the word "ALPS" or "MITSUMI" anywhere on the RF modulator?
No I do not here's what it reads
This is awesome. What do you want to know about it? I would probably take it at face value... it's one of the first (either 7k or 70k, I'm not certain whether the serial numbers have a check digit) NESes that Nintendo released in the US.
As far as we know, there are no software-detectable differences between the RP2A03E and G or the 2C02E and G...
So, why might you want to know what CPU you have? Well, quite simply, if you have an early CPU revision, you can play just about any unlicensed game cart without problem. If you have a later revision, however, you will find that some cartridges just will not play on your console. It is good to know what motherboard revision you have, and if you have a later revision you can go through the steps to permanently disable the lockout system in your console, allowing any game to be played.
This board could contain some of the earliest lockout protocols Nintendo used in the early days.
What's your thoughts on the lockout chip and do you know of any toshiba/Nintendo chips did they work together in the 80s
I've contacted the vghmusuem. The strong mussem, and even the author of the new book I am ERROR
Nathan is actually the guy who sent me to this forum. No one has heard of or seen this board
Jaysin wrote:
So, why might you want to know what CPU you have? Well, quite simply, if you have an early CPU revision, you can play just about any unlicensed game cart without problem.
Ability to run CIC-stunning games are more a function of protection circuits near the CIC (the chip marked 3193) than of the CPU.
There are three kinds of unlicensed NES games: lock-on, CIC clone, and CIC stun. Lock-on passed the CIC signals to a second cartridge. It was used on the NES mostly by HES in Australia, and on the Super NES by Wisdom Tree. CIC clone was used by Tengen and continues to be used by retroUSB, Krikzz, and Infinite NES Lives. But during the NES's original commercial era, other manufacturers used a charge pump on the cart to generate a -3 V to -5 V signal on the CIC data lines to freeze the CIC. To block this, Nintendo redesigned the NES mainboard to add components between the CIC and the Game Pak connector that block negative voltage.
tepples wrote:
Jaysin wrote:
So, why might you want to know what CPU you have? Well, quite simply, if you have an early CPU revision, you can play just about any unlicensed game cart without problem.
Ability to run CIC-stunning games are more a function of protection circuits near the CIC (the chip marked 3193) than of the CPU.
NES-
CPU-02
Blame Nintendo for using the term CPU in the board revision name. Also while the CPU may not be responsible for it, it can still be a giveaway of the board revision which does then include stuff like the CIC circuit.
lidnariq wrote:
This is awesome. What do you want to know about it? I would probably take it at face value... it's one of the first (either 7k or 70k, I'm not certain whether the serial numbers have a check digit) NESes that Nintendo released in the US.
As far as we know, there are no software-detectable differences between the RP2A03E and G or the 2C02E and G...
or between the RP2A03G and H or the 2C02G and H?
Also, has anyone ever checked to see whether PPU register $2004 is readable on a 2C02E? It isn't on the 2C02C (found on early Famicoms) and is on 2C02G. Micro Machines relies on the register being readable or there will be glitches.
Jaysin wrote:
N0000131 CPU-01 - Source YouTube Video New York
Care to share a link?
Great Hierophant wrote:
Also, has anyone ever checked to see whether PPU register $2004 is readable on a 2C02E? It isn't on the 2C02C (found on early Famicoms) and is on 2C02G. Micro Machines relies on the register being readable or there will be glitches.
I believe that was fixed in the 2C02E... although I can't remember where our evidence is...
I'm just curious what justified 6 revisions of each of the 2A03 and 2C02... even the 2A07 got one.
Well that's one of the 2a03's that lacks the short noise mode, right? So some of the sound in your games aren't going to sound the way they should. One of the NESSOUND.TXT documents says that F and G added the 93-bit LSFR mode to the noise.
I wonder if the test modes in the 2a03 revE are the same as the recent findings too...
Goto you tube and copy in paste this in the search
NES from test market fall 1985 motherboard and CPU-1
I think the one Jaysin's talking about is youtu.be/KZHhlBsxmz8 ... Unfortunately, this video is just a demonstration of gameplay.
Same poster
does have another video ( youtu.be/NkFgMmEckyE ) which is a slideshow that actually does include photos of mainboard (showing a NES-CPU-01, 2A03E, 2C02E) and the serial number—but this serial number is N0052096. (Unfortunately, his photos are overexposed, so I can't even actually tell what the difference in video quality he was claiming was)
I can find a picture of the N0000131 case on
nintendoage. Other sources imply it's the same person as the above video poster.
B00daW wrote:
Well that's one of the 2a03's that lacks the short noise mode, right? So some of the sound in your games aren't going to sound the way they should.
On the other hand some earlier games like Balloon Fight will sound like what was probably intended.
Quote:
One of the NESSOUND.TXT documents says that F and G added the 93-bit LSFR mode to the noise.
Quoting Great Hierophant from another forum, that document seems to be slightly wrong. According to Kevtris here, looped noise was added as early as in the RP2A03E
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4279&hilit=2A03E#p35831.
Can anyone offer a patch for the unwanted short-noise mode set in Balloon Fight? This is the only game I know of that appears to set the noise mode bit inadvertently, judging by the Vs. version.
I'm guessing that short noise in
Balloon Fight (JU) is intentional, as it kicks in when a spark hits the fighter or the side of the screen, and it turns off when music is played. And
BF wasn't a Famicom launch title either. By the time it went gold in late 1984, the Famicom had been out for nearly a year and a half with 28 other games (source:
Wikipedia, sorted by date), and Ricoh was probably already cranking out short noise-capable 2A03s. Perhaps it doesn't appear in the Vs. version because the Vs. CPUs were early revisions.
The thing is that the Famicom/NES version is probably a port of the VS version, and as you say the VS Dual System had the original unrevised PPU without short noise capabilities. Since it was developed on the VS System we are guessing that is how it's supposed to sound.
Are you sure it turns off during the music? I heard a sound comparison of the music between an older and a newer PPU.
Edit: Here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avNLbQVKHIc, at the end of the game over tune.
Oh, it's only in the game-over music? That's actually reading garbage and writing it to the register, rather than anything intended. (This bug was masked with the 2A03blank, because the value written is $F7...)
Balloon Fight (J) has two paths for controlling the value written to $400E. At $F700-F711 there's a six-entry table of 3-tuples that are written to $400C, $400E, and $400F. This table is used by the routine fragment starting at $F5E1, which uses the value of Y to index into that table (so only values of 0,3,6,9,12, and 15 are valid). But when the game-over music plays the bad note there, Y contains $2A.
Hm, Y contains $2A because at $F579, Y contained $E when ($FE) pointed to $FE86; pointing to $FE94 ... Y should contain one of 1, 5, or 10 at this point (the other valid values)...
Ok, Y contains 1,5,10, or 14 because at $F575 it loads it from RAM at $EB... And tracking down what's happening to $EB is kinda annoying.
Tracing this back further isn't fun any more
I don't know of an emulator that supports disabling the short-noise period, although there were many early Famicoms that used revisionless 2A03 CPUs, and not just the square buttons. I would think that the Vs and Famicom versions of Balloon Fight were probably being developed in tandem. Even without the short noise there is still something of a buzz in the Vs System version, as shown in MAME.
Great Hierophant wrote:
I don't know of an emulator that supports disabling the short-noise period, although there were many early Famicoms that used revisionless 2A03 CPUs, and not just the square buttons. I would think that the Vs and Famicom versions of Balloon Fight were probably being developed in tandem. Even without the short noise there is still something of a buzz in the Vs System version, as shown in MAME.
There is a little buzz because (IIRC) one pulse channel is used at 25% duty to make a low buzz when the player is hit. It's also possible the MAME APU implementation is based on an existing NES emulator, which won't respect the lack of short noise.
mikejmoffitt wrote:
Great Hierophant wrote:
I don't know of an emulator that supports disabling the short-noise period, although there were many early Famicoms that used revisionless 2A03 CPUs, and not just the square buttons. I would think that the Vs and Famicom versions of Balloon Fight were probably being developed in tandem. Even without the short noise there is still something of a buzz in the Vs System version, as shown in MAME.
There is a little buzz because (IIRC) one pulse channel is used at 25% duty to make a low buzz when the player is hit. It's also possible the MAME APU implementation is based on an existing NES emulator, which won't respect the lack of short noise.
That makes sense, although there is still something of a difference perhaps between the two. I thought that MAME did not implement the short noise period for accuracy purposes. However its PPU implementation will win no prizes.
Quick question: What colour is the screen when you turn the NES on with no game?
Polar Hacker wrote:
Quick question: What colour is the screen when you turn the NES on with no game?
The simple answer would be color #00 - gray (or grey??), but I could be wrong.
Attachment:
nescolors.gif [ 5.49 KiB | Viewed 3030 times ]
edit: col
our or co
lor? Gr
ay or gr
ey?
mikaelmoizt wrote:
Polar Hacker wrote:
Quick question: What colour is the screen when you turn the NES on with no game?
The simple answer would be color #00 - gray, but I could be wrong.
Attachment:
nescolors.gif
I'm wondering if different revisions of motherboards have different colours. The one I have (04) is pink. I had one a little while back (didn't check the number), which had a green screen.
mikaelmoizt wrote:
edit: col
our or co
lor? Gr
ay or gr
ey?
Depends on the country =P
The power-on-color is a function of trivial differences in the inverters that make up the PPU's palette RAM... and to a lesser extent, the exact rate at which Vcc rises when you turn the NES on. (I say "lesser" because that's more or less only a function of the electrolytics in the power supply)
So, differences in individual PPU dice, sure. Differences in how the electrolytics have aged, sure. But I doubt there's any significant trend across mainboard revisions without an accompanying change of PPU or the electrolytic sizes.
(tangent): Officially, "color" is US, "colour" is UK, and I don't know what the rest of the english-speaking world does.
Also, officially, "gray" is US, but I think that spelling is ugly
lidnariq wrote:
The power-on-color is a function of trivial differences in the inverters that make up the PPU's palette RAM... and to a lesser extent, the exact rate at which Vcc rises when you turn the NES on. (I say "lesser" because that's more or less only a function of the electrolytics in the power supply)
So, differences in individual PPU dice, sure. Differences in how the electrolytics have aged, sure. But I doubt there's any significant trend across mainboard revisions without an accompanying change of PPU or the electrolytic sizes.
(tangent): Officially, "color" is US, "colour" is UK, and I don't know what the rest of the english-speaking world does.
Also, officially, "gray" is US, but I think that spelling is ugly
Interesting. I was wondering, because there is something similar for finding the firmware version on a DS. (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_DS_homebrew#Checking_the_firmware_version)
Eh? = color.
I prefer grey as well.
lidnariq wrote:
(post)
Interesting. I know there is always some power-on quirkiness to explain every time some one asks what color (see!) is defaulted and contents of ram for example.
My famiclone actually cycles between startups giving green, pinkish and grey(..) for some reason.
Also, I was taught British English in school. With all the
bloody bollocks from worcestershire you can imagine
I don't think I've ever seen anything but gray on PAL NESes (not a huge sample). At least one of my NTSC NESes boots up to yellow.
Polar Hacker wrote:
Quick question: What colour is the screen when you turn the NES on with no game?
I've seen systems that do 00 (dark gray) and systems that do 28 (yellow).
The DS effect (dubbed "TakeMeOut" by homebrewers during the DS era based on
its resemblance to a
PSP-related video that uses a Franz Ferdinand song) is different. It probably occurs because the firmware loads a value into the palette backdrop that's normally never used, and different versions of the firmware happen to have different values at that address.
"Take Me Out" mashed up with Mr. Resetti's theme
My Famicom usually boots grey. My NES usually boots blue.
I never seen anything but grey. Both on my late SCN PAL NES and all Famicoms I've come across.
tepples wrote:
Polar Hacker wrote:
Quick question: What colour is the screen when you turn the NES on with no game?
I've seen systems that do 00 (dark gray) and systems that do 28 (yellow).
The DS effect (dubbed "TakeMeOut" by homebrewers during the DS era based on
its resemblance to a
PSP-related video that uses a Franz Ferdinand song) is different. It probably occurs because the firmware loads a value into the palette backdrop that's normally never used, and different versions of the firmware happen to have different values at that address.
"Take Me Out" mashed up with Mr. Resetti's themeI never knew that was connect with the PSP. Cool. I don't think I seen a grey screen on a NES before. (It's not like I boot tons of NESs with no game inside). So, is there no connection between the board revisions and the screen color (colour)?
I've seen darker blue, gray, purple, and light blue screens on NES systems with no cartridge inside.
I always saw gray on my front loaders and white on my Famicom AV.
I received a Famicom with a 2A03E and a 2C02E, and Micro Machine displays jumpiness in the the menu screens and the blue line halfway across the screen on the Title Screen. The plot thickens as to this game.
Great Hierophant wrote:
I received a Famicom with a 2A03E and a 2C02E, and Micro Machine displays jumpiness in the the menu screens and the blue line halfway across the screen on the Title Screen. The plot thickens as to this game.
It's not news -- the game relies on OAM readback to synchronize to PPU, which is not implemented on older PPU revisions.
Yeah, but I thought (we thought) readback had been implemented in the 2C02E...
lidnariq wrote:
Yeah, but I thought (we thought) readback had been implemented in the 2C02E...
My bad, then. I can't keep up with the revisions.
Can someone try this for me? I saw it when I was taking apart my NES yesterday. My board revision is 4. If you open the door on the toaster NES, there is a upside down number (just rotate your head to read it). Thing is, that number is also 4. Is this a coincidence, or can this tell you the board revision?
Coincidence. I have two NES-CPU-07s. One has a 13 on the door (S/N N11224416), and the other has a 5 (S/N N19551709).
I'd guess that's the mold #, since any given injection mold is only good for around a million total uses before it needs to be replaced, and Nintendo made a lot more than 1M NESes.
I guess those emulators which did not show Micro Machines correctly were not necessarily inaccurate in that respect.
lidnariq wrote:
Coincidence. I have two NES-CPU-07s. One has a 13 on the door (S/N N11224416), and the other has a 5 (S/N N19551709).
I'd guess that's the mold #, since any given injection mold is only good for around a million total uses before it needs to be replaced, and Nintendo made a lot more than 1M NESes.
Shame...