This's a 15$ ebay gremlins 2 famicom pcb converted into a fully functional gimmick! cart with the extra audio due to me being lucky enough to get a cart with a sunsoft 5b chip in it.
The sound circuit which I found on a japanese website:
The eproms are now directly soldered into the pcb and the precision sockets have been removed since everything is working. I built the audio circuit using the wrong parts (1.1k ohm instead of 1k ohm, 10 ufs instead of 1 ufs) which is why the audio circuit is just floating and not built into some nice protoboard while I wait for the right parts to show up in the mail. Probably the most annoying part of this mod was I had to desolder the suinsoft 5b chip using a heatgun to cut a trace underneath which was grounding one of the necessary audio pins. Wiring the prg eprom is annoying too because it's a 32 pin eprom in a 28 pin spot. One of the pins on the prg eprom (a17) needs to be connected to one of the sunsoft 5b pins which was left floating since the previous maskrom didn't use it). Here's the pcb in the current state:
And of course, a video of it in action (before I hard soldered in the eproms)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVJTyAoSzTMA full wiring schematic will come later if I find enough time.
Why do you STILL go crazy with the glue? Seriously, it looks like garbage and shows you can't make something structurally sound. Should have had all those parts on a piece of prototyping PCB on the outside with maybe blue to keep the PCB from moving. For the electronics, good. Nice. Thanks for doing it. Etc. But to show this off, make it look good, too.
3gengames wrote:
Why do you STILL go crazy with the glue? Seriously, it looks like garbage and shows you can't make something structurally sound. Should have had all those parts on a piece of prototyping PCB on the outside with maybe blue to keep the PCB from moving. For the electronics, good. Nice. Thanks for doing it. Etc. But to show this off, make it look good, too.
It'll be inside a case so you won't have to stare at it. If you don't like it, then go post elsewhere, all you ever do is bitch.
If you drop it, it'll still move all those outside wires, eventually two will short! Doesn't matter if it's in a case, especailly if it breaks.
3gengames wrote:
If you drop it, it'll still move all those outside wires, eventually two will short! Doesn't matter if it's in a case, especailly if it breaks.
The audio wiring is
temporary I already clearly stated that. I'm not using the right parts for the audio circuit so I'm leaving it like this until the right parts arrive in the mail.
Hey, you did it! Congratulations!
rainwarrior wrote:
Hey, you did it! Congratulations!
Thankyou! Always nice to know there's some people who know how to be supportive.
Out of curiosity, why are you using strands of stranded ribbon cable (HDD?) rather than solid 30ga kynar or magnet wire or similar?
lidnariq wrote:
Out of curiosity, why are you using strands of stranded ribbon cable (HDD?) rather than solid 30ga kynar or magnet wire or similar?
I don't see how in this case the hdd cable or kynar would make any difference...
3gengames wrote:
Why do you STILL go crazy with the glue? Seriously, it looks like garbage and shows you can't make something structurally sound. Should have had all those parts on a piece of prototyping PCB on the outside with maybe blue to keep the PCB from moving. For the electronics, good. Nice. Thanks for doing it. Etc. But to show this off, make it look good, too.
F***ing brilliant comment! Try to imagine, how it will looks like with AY chip
I would agree, I hope you can make it look nicer when it's all said and done. It really does look like a WIP with the long wires and glue. But functional certainly counts for alot. Post another picture when you're done. Also, I saw your video and thumbs up for using a real TV to play NES/Famicom and not a crappy Digital TV.
Congrats on getting it to work!
lidnariq wrote:
Out of curiosity, why are you using strands of stranded ribbon cable (HDD?) rather than solid 30ga kynar or magnet wire or similar?
I think it's a matter of preference really. I prefer to use the HDD style wires for most of my projects. I used to use solid core wire, but my major issue with it is there is little to no stress relief on the solder joint. If the wire gets pushed or pulled much it'll break free. Although when the whole thing is coated with glue, it's of less concern.
BTW, is all the glue for stress relief?
God, for the third time now
yes this is still a work in progress. I'm waiting on parts to build the proper audio circuit that's why it's like this right now.
proveaux wrote:
Congrats on getting it to work!
Thankyou.
infiniteneslives wrote:
lidnariq wrote:
I think it's a matter of preference really. I prefer to use the HDD style wires for most of my projects. I used to use solid core wire, but my major issue with it is there is little to no stress relief on the solder joint. If the wire gets pushed or pulled much it'll break free. Although when the whole thing is coated with glue, it's of less concern.
BTW, is all the glue for stress relief?
Yeah I like a little stress relief on my wires. And yes the glue is for stress relief. It may be a bit excessive but it's not harming anything.
Your stress-relieving glue sure is causing lots of stress in this forum!
lidnariq wrote:
Out of curiosity, why are you using strands of stranded ribbon cable (HDD?) rather than solid 30ga kynar or magnet wire or similar?
It's nice to be able to just pull it off the ribbon, sometimes in groups of 2 or more when needed. Especially with the nice thin 80-pin IDE cable it can be handy.
blargg wrote:
Your stress-relieving glue sure is causing lots of stress in this forum!
You are deeply wrong, man
AFAIK 2 or more other forums are under the stress
80sFREAK wrote:
blargg wrote:
Your stress-relieving glue sure is causing lots of stress in this forum!
You are deeply wrong, man
AFAIK 2 or more other forums are under the stress
Yes that's right your trolling is so bad it follows me around multiple forums. You really have nothing better to do.
Doesn't everyone just love when drama from other crappy forums comes over to NESDEV?
Tell me about it. This was my sig on a rhythm game forum several years ago:
(excuse the edge artifacts; it was made for that board's theme)
tokumaru wrote:
Doesn't everyone just love when drama from other crappy forums comes over to NESDEV?
No. But I hate when people bring their terrible techniques and won't change. Especially when he'll more than likely be doing this as part of his "professional" modification package he does with RGB, SVideo, stereo on the NES, whatever else he pulled off other people's docs.
GUYS THIS IS ABOUT NES DEVELOPMENT AND RESEARCH NOT FIGHTING LETS TALK ABOUT WHY GIMMICK IS AWESOME INSTEAD I LIKE GIMMICK IT IS A GOOD GAME IT HAS NICE PLATFORMING ACTION AND IS CHALLENGING THEY ALSO PUT A LOT OF EFFORT INTO THE ART DIRECTION OF THE GAME IT HAS A CONSISTENT AND NEAT ART STYLE THAT COMPLEMENTS THE EXTREMELY DEDICATED PROGRAMMING THAT ALLOW THE GAME TO RUN SMOOTHLY WITH SUCH GREAT VISUALS AND LETS NOT FORGET THE MUSIC WHICH IS NOT ONLY WELL COMPOSED BUT MADE MORE RICH BY THE SUNSOFT-5B MAPPER THAT CONTAINS EXTRA AUDIO CHANNELS A FAMICOM EXCLUSIVE FEATURE ALTHOUGH WITH MODIFICATIONS TO THE AMERICAN OR EUROPEAN NES SYSTEM SUCH EXPANSION AUDIO CAN BE ENJOYED AS WELL GIMMICK IS EASILY MY FAVORITE GAME AND IT IS HARD BUT I CAN BEAT IT IN ONE SITTING PLAYING ON MY FAMICOM TWIN HERE IS A PICTURE SINCE I LIKE GIMMICK SO MUCH I HAVE A BUNCH OF COPIES HERE THEY ARE
I second that - Make repros, not war!
mikejmoffitt wrote:
[a bunch of text in all caps and a picture of three gimmick cartridges lined up like ducks at a shooting gallery]
<bursts out laughing>
lidnariq wrote:
mikejmoffitt wrote:
[a bunch of text in all caps and a picture of three gimmick cartridges lined up like ducks at a shooting gallery]
<bursts out laughing>
That's also how tepples types when he's completely drunk. ;)
3gengames wrote:
tokumaru wrote:
Doesn't everyone just love when drama from other crappy forums comes over to NESDEV?
No. But I hate when people bring their terrible techniques and won't change. Especially when he'll more than likely be doing this as part of his "professional" modification package he does with RGB, SVideo, stereo on the NES, whatever else he pulled off other people's docs.
Well if you don't like it, go post someplace else. And why would I be doing this as a package is there some supply of 5b chips I didn't know about? I did this for fun, does it bother you that people hunt me down to pay me money and enjoy my services? You can go ahead and offer the same services on the internet and advertise "my work looks much nicer inside the case than Drakon's", I really don't mind.
koitsu: When do I get drunk?
Again, my offer stands: If there's anything in my posts that you fail to understand, I'm willing to clarify. Start by pressing the PM button below.
koitsu wrote:
lidnariq wrote:
mikejmoffitt wrote:
[a bunch of text in all caps and a picture of three gimmick cartridges lined up like ducks at a shooting gallery]
<bursts out laughing>
That's also how tepples types when he's completely drunk.
I'm as sober as it gets ._.
Drakon wrote:
80sFREAK wrote:
blargg wrote:
Your stress-relieving glue sure is causing lots of stress in this forum!
You are deeply wrong, man
AFAIK 2 or more other forums are under the stress
Yes that's right your trolling is so bad it follows me around multiple forums. You really have nothing better to do.
Trolling?
Noone need following you on different forums - you coming by yourself, bringing hot glue sculptures.
I'd sure love a copy of Gimmick! (FC) myself. But they're rare...
80sFREAK wrote:
Trolling?
Noone need following you on different forums - you coming by yourself, bringing hot glue sculptures.
You come and complain about it on every forum. Why can't you post something more useful than just a complaint? If all you can do is complain about what I do, then why not post in areas that actually interest you? Or is your only interest bashing other peoples work?
Bananmos wrote:
I second that - Make repros, not war!
Make repros from new parts, not by destroying original game carts.
Drakon wrote:
80sFREAK wrote:
Trolling?
Noone need following you on different forums - you coming by yourself, bringing hot glue sculptures.
You come and complain about it on every forum. Why can't you post something more useful than just a complaint? If all you can do is complain about what I do, then why not post in areas that actually interest you? Or is your only interest bashing other peoples work?
I've already posted what you should be using for this stuff. What interests me i nice, neat, well made products. Yours are not any of those, honestly. I'll agree with 80sFREAK, they look like hunks of glue.
You made your point 20 posts ago. Nobody cared then, and nobody cares now, except maybe 80sFreak. Why don't you give it a rest.
Drakon has made something interesting here, and I'd like to read what other people have to say about it, and not just a billion posts about how one person doesn't like hot glue.
MottZilla wrote:
Bananmos wrote:
I second that - Make repros, not war!
Make repros from new parts, not by destroying original game carts.
I enjoy finding new uses for old stuff. I know it's an odd hobby.
MottZilla wrote:
Make repros from new parts, not by destroying original game carts.
These ASICs are no longer manufactured. Are you talking about cloning an AY sound chip in a CPLD?
Yes. Clone it. While hacking an old cartridge for an experiment isn't so bad, we've all seen what's happened with "repros" in recent years. There's nothing actually stopping anyone from cloning the old hardware if they really want to do so. It'd actually be better if he didn't post any exact instructions on doing this project since it would discourage people that would just want to profit by making hacked carts and save the "donor" games from being hacked up.
tepples wrote:
MottZilla wrote:
Make repros from new parts, not by destroying original game carts.
These ASICs are no longer manufactured. Are you talking about cloning an AY sound chip in a CPLD?
AY chips still avaliable.
MottZilla wrote:
Yes. Clone it. While hacking an old cartridge for an experiment isn't so bad, we've all seen what's happened with "repros" in recent years. There's nothing actually stopping anyone from cloning the old hardware if they really want to do so. It'd actually be better if he didn't post any exact instructions on doing this project since it would discourage people that would just want to profit by making hacked carts and save the "donor" games from being hacked up.
A 100% accurate clone would be really cool. The whole reason why I did this is because the nes powerpak never recreates the audio of these carts exactly like the real thing. I don't mind discouraging people from doing this gremlins 2 is a pretty fun game and it's not like this is some easy 5 minute job. I've had people get mad at me in the past because I refused to post instructions on how to do certain mods since I don't want to see people frying expensive and hard to find hardware. I looked at the option of wiring up the AY chip I even bought a couple of those chips. The AY audio circuit is different I want to make something that sounds 100% like the original cart. Does anyone know if the AY audio output is different from the 5b chip based on how this audio circuit I found is wired?
infiniteneslives tried both an AY and YM with his custom board:
http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=8808&start=75#p100622Others have tried attaching them to a Return of the Joker cart. I think they were successful, either the AY or YM will make the right sounds. The harder thing to duplicate is the mixing.
I think the PowerPak does a decent job of emulating Gimmick's hardware. It doesn't have the envelope or noise of the 5B, but the game doesn't use those. Really I think it's not that hard to get 3 square waves replicated fairly well... I would guess it doesn't really handle the logarithmic volume curve fully, but the game itself generally keeps the squares in the quiet range of the chip anyway, so it's not much of a problem for Gimmick.
The mixing is a big thing to me. I don't like buying the legit cart, plugging it in, and being able to hear the difference between the cart and my powerpak. That's why I started making these conversions. If we can get the AY / YM / powerpak to reproduce the audio 100% the same that would be awesome!
If mixed properly the AY or YM chip (with the correct clock division, or lack thereof) should sound identical to the 5B, as I am fairly sure the 5B has the AY on-die.
I was under the impression that the mixing differed even between revisions of the authentic Famicom.
Well, one of the things that's weird about Gimmick's mix is how loud it is. It's much louder than any other expansion cart I've tried. I guess this is due to the internal amplifier?
The APU mix and output level differs from Famicom to Famicom, but it has an average and an expected deviation like anything else. I don't think it has anything to do with revisions, mostly just different resistors that are still within the range of tolerance. Different Gimmick carts would have slightly different mixes as well, but there's still a sweet spot somewhere that we might call "correct". There's a huge difference between the range of tolerance between carts/Famicoms and the mix you'll get from the PowerPak w/audio mod, for instance. (Though as I said, I think the PowerPak is doing a fine job for Gimmick.)
The 5B is a YM2149F, not an AY. The difference is that YM envelopes can be twice the resolution, and it halves the incoming clock to accomplish this. However, this is not relevant to Gimmick, since it doesn't use the envelope.
I was looking at the Japanese schematic and apparently the sound is generated MONO at pin 27, mixed with the Famicom sound through a 10K resistor and then amplified by an OP AMP which is inside of the mapper chip at pins 2 and 3 ... Fun stuff, no ?
Edit: AY has louder outputs, which allows for wiring the chip straight to the Famicom feedback without an amp chip.
Edit2: Wiki has that fixed already. Outdated me.
Now to fit an YM2149 on it and properly amp the audio !
l_oliveira wrote:
Now to fit an YM2149 on it and properly amp the audio !
I haven't test it myself, but as discussed
here the variant to add an opamp for the YM was updated on
ROM LabSeems a lot simpler and less work to add a clock divider than an opamp for the same net effect IMO.
Quote:
The 5B is a YM2149F, not an AY. The difference is that YM envelopes can be twice the resolution, and it halves the incoming clock to accomplish this. However, this is not relevant to Gimmick, since it doesn't use the envelope.
How do you know this? Couldn't they have put an on die clock divider in front of the AY to accomplish the same effect? I might need a history lesson. But doesn't it make more sense that sunsoft licensed the 8910 from GI, than daisy chain licensing the YM from yamaha who licensed the 8910 from GI?
What's the external noticeable difference between:
A)putting a clock divider in front of a AY-8910
B)putting an opamp on the output of the YM2419
Well, I reproduced the Japanese circuit and used one port of a 74HCU04 as amplifier.
Man it surely is LOUD. LOUD is the perfect word to describe how it sounds.
Apparently due to the fact that the YM2149 has three current sources instead of one (and I am not even sure if the 5B has the same voltage level output as an YM2149 in each of it's pins) the SSG is way louder than it's supposed to be. But it's fair assume that what the 5B has on pins 2 and 3 is an inverter port.
Edit - This is the circuit I am using:
Edit 2 - Resistor value was wrong. Circuit rectified
Edit 3 - Circuit makes sound identical as the original cart. Resitive divider with 3k3/4K7 resistor fixes up signal to an agreeable level.
Edit 4 - Fix image link
l_oliveira wrote:
Well, I reproduced the Japanese circuit and used one port of a 74HCU04 as amplifier.
Man it surely is LOUD. LOUD is the perfect word to describe how it sounds.
I would imagine a inverter would be a tremendously loud amplifier since all it knows to output is ~5v or ~0v, nothing inbetween... You might want to consider using something more suitable for audio amplification like the opamp circuit I pointed out earilier. Or a clock divider and the 8910.
infiniteneslives wrote:
l_oliveira wrote:
Well, I reproduced the Japanese circuit and used one port of a 74HCU04 as amplifier.
Man it surely is LOUD. LOUD is the perfect word to describe how it sounds.
I would imagine a inverter would be a tremendously loud amplifier since all it knows to output is ~5v or ~0v, nothing inbetween... You might want to consider using something more suitable for audio amplification like the opamp circuit I pointed out earilier. Or a clock divider and the 8910.
Considering that the idea is mimic what the real cartridge is doing, it's perfectly fine as is. Rane commented how loud the original Gimmick cartridge is and after seeing this circuit running, I can only agree.
infiniteneslives wrote:
I would imagine a inverter would be a tremendously loud amplifier since all it knows to output is ~5v or ~0v, nothing inbetween... You might want to consider using something more suitable for audio amplification like the opamp circuit I pointed out earilier.
Using non-hysteretic inverters such as the 74HC04 as an amplifier is a time-honored technique, and already used inside the NES and Famicom's audio path. The amount of gain is a function of the MOSFETs used inside and the resistor closing the feedback loop.
infiniteneslives wrote:
I would imagine a inverter would be a tremendously loud amplifier since all it knows to output is ~5v or ~0v, nothing inbetween...
facepalm.jpg
Since resistor added, this
CMOS gate is not invertor anymore. It's simple, but has it's underwater rocks.
Quote:
You might want to consider using something more suitable for audio amplification like the opamp circuit I pointed out earilier. Or a clock divider and the 8910.
One stage transistor amplifier will do the job. YM chip outputs about 0.25V, so we need gain voltage about 10dB. To compare with HC04 vased amplifier you need general silicon transistor and one resistor.
80sFREAK wrote:
One stage transistor amplifier will do the job. YM chip outputs about 0.25V, so we need gain voltage about 10dB. To compare with HC04 vased amplifier you need general silicon transistor and one resistor.
Since my goal was mimic the original cart, doing something different than it "ain't any fun"... You get my point, right ?
l_oliveira wrote:
80sFREAK wrote:
One stage transistor amplifier will do the job. YM chip outputs about 0.25V, so we need gain voltage about 10dB. To compare with HC04 vased amplifier you need general silicon transistor and one resistor.
Since my goal was mimic the original cart, doing something different than it "ain't any fun"... You get my point, right ?
Yup, exactly.
infiniteneslives wrote:
Quote:
The 5B is a YM2149F, not an AY. The difference is that YM envelopes can be twice the resolution, and it halves the incoming clock to accomplish this. However, this is not relevant to Gimmick, since it doesn't use the envelope.
How do you know this? Couldn't they have put an on die clock divider in front of the AY to accomplish the same effect? I might need a history lesson. But doesn't it make more sense that sunsoft licensed the 8910 from GI, than daisy chain licensing the YM from yamaha who licensed the 8910 from GI?
I know this because I counted the steps in the output envelope waveform. There are 32. If it was an AY with a clock divider there would have been only 16.
Also, if they were using an AY, I doubt they would have decided to use a clock divider. It would add yet another new component to the design, and there is nothing to gain by doing it. Actually, I would argue that by using the YM2149F's built-in doubler, they've made the chip a lot worse, musically. It adds a useless sub-bass octave to the squares, while taking away most of the envelope's useful high-frequency range.
As far as licensing goes, what makes you sure it was licensed at all? Maybe it was just stolen.
The site here :
https://jensma.de/nesrepro/gimmick/ has the schematic diagram for games with a Sunsoft 5b chip. The schematic requires the addition of three resistors and two capacitors. The images of the real Gimmick's board show three capacitors :
http://bootgod.dyndns.org:7777/profile.php?id=2695The two capacitors to the right of the chip are the capacitors added by the schematic, but the third capacitor (the one to the left of the chip) is not. FME-7, Sunsoft 5A and Sunsoft 5B boards (other than Gimmick) do not have electrolytic capacitors on their boards. I would like to add the capacitor, but I can't quite make out the value in the photo. It seems to have a voltage rating of 6.3v, but the capacitance could be .47uF, 4.7uF or 47uF. Can anyone tell me what the correct value is? I am guessing 4.7uF.
It's "just" a bypass capacitor for the power rail. (It connects between 5V and ground). 4.7µF should be fine, but the exact value is pretty unimportant.
Re: that guide... Is it really easier to find an AY-3-891x than one of the YM parts with the integral clock divider?
The AY-3-8912 is a 28-pin chip and the AY-3-8913 is a 24-pin chip and a bit less tricky to fit in some carts than the 40-pin AY-3-8910 or the 40-pin YM2149F. All chips seem to be available for reasonable prices, at least from the less than reliable HK/China sellers. I know there are a few smaller YMZ parts, such as the 18-pin YMZ294 and 16-pin YMZ294, but do they mix their PSG channels in the same way that a Sunsoft 5B chip does? I thought that the pins on a Sunsoft 5B were the output of the individual channels, but two are for a built-in amplifier and the third is the final output.
The YMZ284/294 have all three channels already downmixed, but no separate amplifier.