Is there any interest in a coding compo for nes? (nrom)
I'm thinking of hosting one.
We'd have to establish these things:
1.) rules
2.) deadline
3.) i'm probably forgetting something
edit: chr ram now allowed
edit 2: it's on. Rules in
this post.
I'd like to see some kind of a prize. Maybe everyone could chip in a little bit for a powerpak or some other cool NESdev-related thing?
I'll probably enter something, depending on how long I have.
As for rules: Compare
a GBA competition.
But why no CHR RAM? Do you plan to compile the top entries into a multicart that uses a CHR ROM mapper?
No chr ram because some emulators don't support it. Also i'm not sure if the powerpak does. I might allow it if the powerpak does.
Ian Bell's tank demo is NROM with CHR RAM, and it runs fine on my PowerPak. Change the mapper to 34 (BNROM) and even the most pedantic emulator should support it.
If you're restricting games to NROM, then no CHR-RAM makes sense, because the cartridges don't have it. But why the restriction to NROM only?
If powerpak allows it ok then you can use it.
edit: btw I think it might be a good idea to have a game coding compo....tech demos are fun...for 3 minutes. But I'd like to see more games.
Wow jeroen, you finally got me to post on the forum after 7 months of IRC'ing with #nesdev.
I'm already in
one compo ... but maybe something more specific and unusual than "a game compo." A light zapper compo? A compo that is neither game nor demo, such as a utility, or an embedded language interpreter a la BASIC?
hi everybody who's never on IRC but on here.
With utils you run into the issue of very specific uses. Wether they're usefull is very dependent on the user. Whereas a game can in theory be enjoyed by everyone. (stil to a degree taste but less.)
I think NROM GAME is pretty specific, it says make something with only 40k to work with. Using CHR-RAM takes away 8k.
I don't see why not.
I always wanted to make something for a compo, but I don't know if I would be willing to pause the development of my main project for this.
BTW, I'm not aware of any emulators that don't support CHR-RAM. It's a pretty common thing, and a shitload of NES games use it. If there actually is an emulator that doesn't support it, I bet it's not very popular.
CHR-RAM isn't the issue, it's CHR-RAM combined with Mapper 0 (NROM). Some newer emulators may reject it, probably for the same reason they reject CNROM with more than 32k of CHR-ROM.
Are you saying that an NROM board cannot support CHR RAM simply by soldering it in place of the CHR ROM? That is, you'd have to reroute some traces for it to be writable and addressed properly, thus making it not an NROM anymore? If so, it's too bad that emulators don't support CHR RAM with NROM as a simple extension, interpreting it as an NROM-like board with routing for CHR RAM.
I see... Still, I don't know why sometimes compos are so restrictive. Is that so entries will be easier to judge (since one will not be superior to others because of hardware features)?
Even though I don't really understand, the possibility of seeing a bunch of new NROM games is kinda exciting for some reason.
Quote:
Some newer emulators may reject it, probably for the same reason they reject CNROM with more than 32k of CHR-ROM.
Not really - ONLY NESTOPIA DON'T SUPPORT IT. Nestopia isn't "some emulators". And it doesn't support NROM with PRG-RAM either. It's kinda dumb if you ask me - it's not because no commercial games used one configuration that this said configuration doesn't exist.
You guys did get the part where I said it was allowed right? Blargg: I knew it was possible on a board I just wasnt sure how many emulators supported it (and more importantly the powerpak) One of membler's games uses chr ram on nrom.
It's the new emulators that try to simulate actual boards, vs the ones that emulate the Mapper numbers.
For instance, QuickNES seems to cap CNROM at 32k, but Nestopia does not. For a while, FCEUX was capping CNROM to 32k as well, but that restriction was later relaxed.
Many newer emulators do not allow WRAM to exist on boards where it did not traditionally exist. So mapper 0 may no longer have WRAM, along with mapper 2, mapper 3, etc. Some other emulators always emulate WRAM regardless of which mapper it is.
The newest versions of FCEUX force "bus conflicts" by comparing the value written to ROM with the value there, this breaks some ROM hacks, such as "Mario vs Air Man".
tokumaru wrote:
I always wanted to make something for a compo, but I don't know if I would be willing to pause the development of my main project for this.
I'm in this boat.
InvalidComponent wrote:
I'd like to see some kind of a prize. Maybe everyone could chip in a little bit for a powerpak or some other cool NESdev-related thing?
But for a good prize, maybe I'd consider it. If it would be a powerpak, I for one would suggest a cash equivalent to prize's price (and then you save on shipping) for those who already have one. I have a feeling at least a few of the people here who'd enter do.
Also I'm confused. I realize chr RAM would be allowed now, but is it still NROM only?
Luckily my current project is still NROM, but I don't think I'd enter it in a competition at the moment. I'd have to do something new.
tokumaru wrote:
I see... Still, I don't know why sometimes compos are so restrictive. Is that so entries will be easier to judge (since one will not be superior to others because of hardware features)?
That, and the byte budget helps contestants set realistic goals for their entries. If you think you can make something as ambitious as SMB1 in the time limit, go ahead.
As for taking away 8 KiB, there are a bunch of game designs that require placement of large numbers of background objects at granularity smaller than 8px: Qix, Hatris, and Blockout. The programmer can gain some of that data back using tokumaru's codec.
What will the theme of the compo be?
Just a "Game" no real theme. As for a price...well I cant really afford anything good by myself...anyone care to donate/chip in?
How about to get money we could take some entries, and stick them onto a "Mini Game" cart and have a limited run or something on NA or somewhere where people would want to buy them, use all the money raised to reward the games makers. Would that be cool? But each winner getting a card would probably be a little.
If we set it to NROM only, we could be able to add each game to a bank of PRG-ROM on MMC1 or some othr maper, Make a program that runs from RAM from the title screen/ROM to switch to the right bank, then jump to the games program. That would be cool
Great idea about selling copies on NA. Gbadev.org did that too, though it was easier on GBA because of the fairly easy availability of commercial Chinese-made flash carts. A collection of the top six entries would work if you can find a supply of cheap SGROM donors (see
list), and you could sell a PocketNES version on the side to reach customers who have a GBA SP or DS Lite but lack a working NES.
65024U wrote:
If we set it to NROM only, we could be able to add each game to a bank of PRG-ROM on MMC1 or some othr maper, Make a program that runs from RAM from the title screen/ROM to switch to the right bank, then jump to the games program.
And I've already made a prototype of the
MMC1 multicart menu that I'll let you use. It just needs to be fixed to run from power-on instead of relying on Zelda.
Well we'd have to get someone to make the carts, I mean I like the idea. But i'm sure as hell not making them
I think that the community should make a new screen for it
Yeah well that is possible right? Have a MMC1 switch program ROM from the menu to the NROM game right? If so I could program it although I haven't used mappers yet....
EDIT:
I'm sure RetroUSB has enough parts for our needs. And ROM's can be gotten offline for cheap if we buy all 40 in one lot I'm sure that'd be like $30 for the ROM'S, $9 for the board, $4 for the case, and $4 for a ciclone, and $3/label. Add $4 for the shipping of parts from RetroUSB and that equals about $23 per cart. That isn't bad. We would need to get quotes to actually get a price though....
Jeroen wrote:
Well we'd have to get someone to make the carts, I mean I like the idea. But i'm sure as hell not making them
What ARE you doing then? As the host of the compo you gotta do something!
I'll be a judge and i'll set up a website. As well as set up a team of jury members. <--volunteers? I'll also lay down some money for the price (but I simply cant pay for say a powerpak all by myself)
I really want to help with the site! I have a GREAT layout done that is VERY editable with Javascript, works in IE last time I tested it, too.
Also, maybe use a MMC1 mapper with a 256K PRG ROM and put even more games on it
That would be 8.....Unless you can't put 256K CHR on it....
Cool. I'll have to see how hosting is gonna work out (guess i'm paying for some webspace
)
Jeroen wrote:
Cool. I'll have to see how hosting is gonna work out (guess i'm paying for some webspace
)
Ahh crap I don't know PHP.....Well I'll have a website done in a little for a demo
65024U wrote:
Also, maybe use a MMC1 mapper with a 256K PRG ROM and put even more games on it
That would be 8.....Unless you can't put 256K CHR on it....
MMC1 is limited to 128 KiB CHR ROM. You still need space for the menu, so unless one of the ROMs is 128 KiB, you'll still need some space for the menu.
Go up to SUROM, and you can fit 12 games (480 KiB) + menu, or more if some games use CHR RAM, NROM-128, or easily compressible tilesets. To encourage this, you can award a couple bonus points at judging time for ROMs smaller than the maximum.
As for a web site, you can probably abuse MediaWiki to act as your CMS, like StepMania.com does.
Is this an NROM compo, or a MMC1-multicart-entry compo? Doesn't MMC1 let you use single screen mirroring?
I thought we could make it NROM only and add a mapper to make it a multi-cart. I guess now is the time to decide, NROM or no NROM, No NROM means it might be hard to put on the MMC1 mapper cart, unless it uses the MMC1 mapper.
Like I just said on irc...you can make the original mario with nrom....I dont think many of these entries are gonna exceed that. So I think we should stick to nrom.
I'm in
If we're taking votes on the setup, I vote chr-ram, 32k prg-rom, h/v/ or single screen mirroring.
Well since the RetroUSB carts have it, it would be like $2 or so more, but use both CHR-ROM and CHR-RAM maybe?
Having both chr rom and chr ram could turn into a hassle if we do a mulitcart though. (and again i'm stil not fond of the idea if it means I have to make all those carts....and I dont think anyone else is gonna pay up front for them)
Well only games that used it would use it, others would just act like it's not there....And hey, soldering is WAY easier then desoldering....My 5 NROM Development/Demo carts confirm!
Took like 45 minutes to tear a board apart, 5 to solder chip sockets in -.-
Yeah but someone stil needs to fund them before they're sold. I'm 17 and have no job. Also using chr ram and loading the chr rom into the ram before booting would definitly be a hit on the amount of games we can put on the cart. (then again there probably wont be that many entries)
What hasn't been mentioned (and is pretty important for setting the rules), who is judging? I think we could have a panel of judges (or simply let the contestants make up the panel - but can't rate your own entry).
Also I would say that the size limitation is pointless (especially if we have knowledgeable judges that can take size into account if they want to). A really good 16kB game is going to beat a lousy 64kB game. Having the size limit though would mean the 64kB game would be crippled or not even happen.
Also the talk of building and selling multicarts of the entries is a bit premature. We should see what happens in the end. Also, the estimate of about $23 each for Retrozone parts alone is outrageous. I would aim for (and sure I could achieve) more like $6 in parts costs, almost 75% cheaper.
Also even if a multicart is built, CHR-RAM or CHR-ROM really shouldn't matter. If the game uses CHR-ROM, you just load it into the RAM before running it. You can typically run stuff like CNROM games on 8kB CHR-RAM without a hitch (and even better size-wise, if you use compression).
Jeroen wrote:
Having both chr rom and chr ram could turn into a hassle if we do a mulitcart though.
Not really, as long as the CHR-ROM entries are limited to NROM (8KB of CHR). The menu can have some info about each game (like the type of mirroring they use and whether they have CHR-RAM or CHR-ROM), enough to configure everything before they run. If a game uses CHR-ROM, its tiles are copied to VRAM, if not, just leave it as is, the game itself will take care of uploading its tiles.
I don't think the games should know they are in an MMC1 cart though, and shouldn't be allowed to use any of the mapper's features (such as dynamic mirroring).
EDIT: I think that deciding on the specs will be tough. If everyone is free to use whatever they want, making a multicart will be very hard. And by disallowing certain configurations you might be reducing the number of entries.
Another very important thing that wasn't discussed yet (AFAIK): the deadline. How much time do you think people would have to work on their games? Can works already in progress be used (that might not be fair to people who haven't started yet)?
So we need some people one jury duty.
For one I would be a judge. I'd hate to ask a favour but memblers would you be interested?
Any other volunteers?
Wouldn't most of us be interested in coding rather than judging?
Thats why i'm asking...would anyone like to be a judge instead of coding?
I am bad at coding for NES so I would be more interested in judging (by the way I just signed up I am ivan^ from irc)
I think this would be more competitive if there were a size limitation. Not to mention, slightly easier to code.
I think the games should be maybe NOT be able to change the mirroring, but yet if you write a V game not a H game, the program to move the correct 32K to PRG-ROM and 8K to CHR-ROM (Or RAM maybe?) should also change the mapper for the game. That gives people more variety to make games with.
If we got a MMC1 cart with a 8K CHR-RAM mapped in, Games could either be switched to CHR-ROM or CHR-RAM, But lets make it not both. That was you either have more PRG space for a game, or you have easier animations but less ROM and CPU time. Thats one heck of a decision!
EDIT:
Well on NA, Dain said whatever it takes haha
Thats such a awesome site on Retro support for systems, it's scary how nice the community is. Nice to have a site like that to support such a contest!
Drag wrote:
I think this would be more competitive if there were a size limitation. Not to mention, slightly easier to code.
Not necessarily... The size of the game does not dictate its complexity. We often get that impression because the smaller games were the first ones to be made. At the same time ROM became cheaper, NES programmers evolved and made more complex programs, but one thing is not directly related to the other.
Also, consider this: say I made the most awesome engine ever and all the code fits in 16KB, so I have 16KB left for data, and this might not be enough for a lot of levels. Using more memory would be much simpler than tweaking the engine and using all sorts of complex data compression to have everything fit in 16KB. Hence, smaller ROM != easier to code.
Still, I agree with the ROM limitation. Regardless of how easy/hard to code the games will be, everyone will be forced to design around the limitation, and it will be interesting to see how far each one managed to go with the same specs (or similar).
How many levels do you think you'll have time to design and balance in 2 months anyway? You can always release a 2-level demo of your game for the compo, then release a full version on its own cart later.
^^Indeed I don't think you'll really NEEd the extra space. Another reason to use nrom is to keep it a bit more fair across contestants. Someone might have never worked with mmc3 but will pretty much have to use it because everyone else uses it for its scanline counter, thus giving him an unfair disadvantage (altough I suppose you could chalk that up to skill) Now the judges could take this into consideration in theory...but in practice that could mean hell.
I thought we were judging on fun!
Yeah NROM should be big enough for a game, I mean, 32K? Thats like 12000 lines of program.
I don't know, I mean, who wants to play a demo? If we do this, I am planning on doing Polarium, a NES port with as many levels as could be added wit NROM (Probably hundreds).....Thats my title, I claim it
Mostly fun yes. But technical achievement has to be taken into acount as well.
Has anyone discussed 1st/2nd/3rd prizes? Not sure what would be applicable, but Parodius could spot cash (maybe US$100/50/25?) as such. Doot doot.
Ok so we got hosting settled (nintendoage) a possible price (parodius) now we just need judges and to finalize the rules.
edit: and a prize. (koitsu..I like the money idea...but I dont think I can afford that much unless other people chip in)
Well how would we consider the coding as part of the compo instead of fun? Going from 2K to 4K and 8K classes is ALOT of space and program difference, shouldn't it be the best game made as based by others rating? We could make the best coding every (The awesome text box demo for instance) but nobody wants to play that, it's more of a program to show what could be achieved if something is amazingly well and would smash others games....Idk I just think fun should fact more in then programming finess.
Taking volunteers to be judges is the same as public voting, just with an extra layer of bureaucracy (and seems very arbitrary too). In extreme example with public voting, making a game based on internet-memes would be the only way to win.
I believe it would be best if the judges were the ones who are sponsoring the prizes (and like I said before, the contestants themselves - just not allowed to rate their own entry or do sabotage-style voting). I could chip in something.
I'm still not convinced the ROM size limit is all that useful.. I believe if someone is skilled enough to really make a large original game, firstly they probably deserve to win, and secondly I'm 99% sure they could still win by crippling the game to fit into 40kB (making it a 'demo version' basically). When it comes to code complexity, there's a point where the ROM size doesn't matter. 32kB of code is HUGE, like 65024U pointed out, around 12000 lines of source. So the size limit is doing nothing more than discouraging extra data - music, graphics, levels, and such, and that kind of sucks. Still, I'd be fine with going along with a 40kB size limit, I just don't think it will affect the voting results at all (if it's not a public vote).
I don't like the idea of public voting...its too easy to sabotage. On side note...we could of course judge the actual coding...but have you tried looking at someone elses code? Its hard to make any sense of!
How about we start a topic on forums so that people could post their scores and then there won't be any cheating (Clearning browser and voting again and such) I think that would be the closest to fair, but then others may influence the vote if others read through it possibly.
Well I would like to chip in but really don't think I could :/ 16, No job.....I may do something though later, just not now :/
Well lets see what Jero has up his sleave for this games rules and then we'll just go from what he says.
And I doubt anyone can make any more then 6000 line game engine in a month with music and level data included?
My treefiddy:
- Memblers pretty much said all I had to say about size limitations already. The only reason I see for such limitation is if we want to get a multicart produced. That said 32K is a LOT, for me it would be quite hard to fill all that in couple of months I think.
- There should be no limitations for using pre-existing code (impossible to control)
- Releasing source code should be voluntary and IMO the entries shouldn't be judged based on quality of the source code.
Oh yeah and I can donate $3.50 for the prize.
I don't know if I would like to provide the source code, especially since I won't and can't comment for my life
And the fact that someone else could then assemble and change my game....uhhh....I really don't want that
Hard to get around those points. Ok guess we can throw the size limit out. With nrom being preferred. Only mapper I REALLY dont want people using is mmc5. Or anything not supported by powerpak. As for a prize...well quitte frankly I suggest having the compo first and then figuring out a possible prize. (altough I suppose just winning would be neat) Sure its not the best motivator out there, but come on if all you care about is a prize you shouldn't be entering a competition
So....the famous question.....Good game with bad code or bad game with good code, what would win?
These games in the end are going to be played, so thats why I think coding shouldn't matter as much if it gets the job done. I am sure we will all write some pretty good code, as many of use seem like decent programmers and wouldn't want stupid crap in our games that make us look dumb
Throwing out size/mapper restrictions is a pretty drastic change. I suppose WRAM is okay now?
Relax, nobody is gonna judge anything by looking at code, that makes no sense. What's important is that the game isn't all glitchy (full of visible programming errors) and that it runs perfectly on hardware. If something doesn't run well on hardware I don't think it should even qualify.
I don't agree with the "let's just get started and figure out the details later" philosophy. All coders have the right to know what they're getting into before they decide to take the journey. If you want this to succeed, it has to look professional.
Yeah.....uhh......I only have NROM development board to test on a console.....oh well
EDITS: Saves question for later...
So well.....looks like this won't be a cart release anymore.....oh well it was a thought.
why can't it still be a cart release?
it could just be a single-game cart for the top winner, like jero said in irc he actually didn't want a multicart even
I could afford a single cart getting made vs a multicart that would be sold. (say what you want about making back the costs theres stil the initial costs)
Personally I think getting your game made into a cart is a decent prize. (by made into a cart I mean a single cart for you personally)
Jeroen wrote:
Personally I think getting your game made into a cart is a decent prize. (by made into a cart I mean a single cart for you personally)
Only if you can't make one yourself, but since many of us can that isn't much of a prize.
Jeroen wrote:
edit: and a prize. (koitsu..I like the money idea...but I dont think I can afford that much unless other people chip in)
I was proposing that the prize money be donated to the winners by Parodius -- nobody needs to chip in! :-)
Seriously? Thats good nobody is hurt and I don't feel so bad not being able to chip in now
And maybe there could still be a multi cart, but if anyone uses 2 different mappers, that would screw us all up
Atleast if they are all NROM though, then we could stick them on a cart and switch between....
Nah lets cross the bridge when we get there I guess....
koitsu wrote:
Jeroen wrote:
edit: and a prize. (koitsu..I like the money idea...but I dont think I can afford that much unless other people chip in)
I was proposing that the prize money be donated to the winners by Parodius -- nobody needs to chip in!
Wow that'd be great! Yeah that shoudl work
I like the multicart idea (if the games aren't complete shit) so I'm fine with limiting to NROM only. I would think there's some market for a cart like that. The profits could be used in several ways, some of them could go in to the prize pool for the next compo (so we could make this a recurring thing without donated money) and some maybe to the authors of the games. Of course the cart manufacturer also takes a cut.
The reason I was suggesting the size limitation was so there was an even playing ground. Everyone here seems to agree that 32k is plenty big enough for a game, so why don't we just use that? Otherwise, I'm worried that the "competition" will just degrade into "who has the most complex game?"
Besides, if you're worried about not having space to fit all of your supergiant levels, just look at SMB. There'd be the extra challenge in getting all of your data to fit within the size constraint, and having a huge game within 32k would be a lot more impressive then having a huge game within 1mb, wouldn't you agree?
thefox wrote:
- There should be no limitations for using pre-existing code (impossible to control)
Agreed.
I wonder what's the consensus on this matter.
Let's say I wanted to use my existing platformer engine and build a new game on top of it... while still extending the engine's functionality, effectively working on my main project AND the compo at the same time.
(That way I could probably convince myself to participate in the compo
)
It does feel a little unfair to me, since so much work has gone into this engine already. Then again, why write anything from scratch if you've got reusable code?
Wow, well I thought you ment like sound engines and stuff, but if your gona use a full engine already made I might as well not enter
Although I do think it's fair to you it just my simple planned Mini-game (Not really) won't be able to compete :/
Yeah we cant actually check for reused code so cant really ban that. I do expect contestants to not be dicks and try and actually write code instead of say hacking one of their existing projects. (I dont mind a bit of modifying but just dont change 3 lines of code and call it a new project)
Yeah, this raises some interesting points. Really it makes me think the only way we can both see the best stuff, and have a level playing field is to expand the compo to have multiple categories. That means more prizes to award too, which is great if the prize is still reasonable. I propose that I could match koitsu's prize offer, and we can have 2 categories. For fundraising I already have an account on
http://www.kickstarter.com/ which might be helpful (not free though, 5% + whatever amazon's credit card fee is). I was actually going to set something up on there for an very similar purpose, heheh.
But if there were to be 2 categories, I would propose
1: freestyle - anything goes, can be a game, demo, or NES app (native to NES). Only restriction is it can't be a re-release of something you already released.
2: minigame - either 16, 24, 32, 40kB? I kind of lean towards 16 or 24kB.
I like the minigame idea, but I bet most minigames will be 8-16K, Unless it uses a different background per level or something.....
And as for the first, as long as we eliminate Blargg's 10000 color demo, I think that will be level, too
^_^
65024U wrote:
Wow, well I thought you ment like sound engines and stuff, but if your gona use a full engine already made I might as well not enter
Although I do think it's fair to you it just my simple planned Mini-game (Not really) won't be able to compete :/
Yup, it wouldn't be very nice towards other participants. Then again, even if people were to write a new engine they could use their already existing code base (e.g. sprite management, collision detection). There's no good reason not to and that would still be a huge advantage over someone starting his game completely from scratch.
Jeroen wrote:
Yeah we cant actually check for reused code so cant really ban that. I do expect contestants to not be dicks and try and actually write code instead of say hacking one of their existing projects. (I dont mind a bit of modifying but just dont change 3 lines of code and call it a new project)
In my case it would still mean putting a lot of time into code, the engine's still missing a bunch of features while parts of it would need to be rewritten. Also, enemy behavior and event scripting would take a lot of code work.
I'm just wondering where the "it's alright" stage ends and "you're a dick" begins.
I, too, like the mini game idea. Sorry for bringing already discussed things up again, but I think 16k PRG+8k CHR using no advanced mapper features, i.e. NROM, would be a nice size restriction. It's easy to put on (multi-)carts and forces you to be modest when coming up with a game concept. It's more about the idea and creativity behind it than complexity and technical bragging.
I could manage 16k + 8k PRG only if I also have WRAM to decompress stuff to
Well if this does happen and games are done on NROM, maybe we could add a WRAM to the cart for it? IDK if it's really worth it since it's just a NROM game, but alot of NROM games don't use 8K extra ram, so there's ALOT of extra abilities that should be able to be achieved. Imagine what they would have added to SMB with 8K more of WRAM 0_o
Well whatever happens we will live with it....I am thinking NROM restriction is good now but maybe there could be a NROM Minigame and MMC1 mapper category, where the NROM games are released on mini-game cart and the MMC1 winner gets put onto a cart, too. That way their could be two cartridges for this competition. A bunch of good tiny games on one cart, and a full-fledged game one another. Haha, I dont know how many would do a MMC1 GAME for the contest, though
Just another thought.....
Jeroen wrote:
koitsu wrote:
Jeroen wrote:
edit: and a prize. (koitsu..I like the money idea...but I dont think I can afford that much unless other people chip in)
I was proposing that the prize money be donated to the winners by Parodius -- nobody needs to chip in! :-)
Wow that'd be great! Yeah that shoudl work :-D
Consider it done. If folks decide on multiple compos, we can still put up the cash per-compo as well. Just drop me a private note on the forum here and I'll respond.
Dwedit wrote:
I could manage 16k + 8k PRG only if I also have WRAM to decompress stuff to
Then why not go with the original 32KB PRG + 8KB CHR limitation then? Most data can't be compressed to half its size, so I think that cutting back on ROM just to expand RAM (making carts more expensive to produce) doesn't make any sense.
65024U wrote:
I dont know how many would do a MMC1 GAME for the contest, though
I wouldn't, because I hate the the way its registers are written to.
I think that keeping programs small makes more sense for this compo. I think it's very unlikely that anyone will create more than 32KB of code/data in just a couple of months, so in a certain way that even discourages reutilization of existing programs, even though that can't be fully controlled.
BTW, thanks koitsu and Mamblers for the help! I hope something good comes out of this idea!
tokumaru wrote:
I think it's very unlikely that anyone will create more than 32KB of code/data in just a couple of months, so in a certain way that even discourages reutilization of existing programs, even though that can't be fully controlled.
Especially because I'm sitting on a half-done NROM-128 game, waiting for an excuse to finish it.
tepples wrote:
Especially because I'm sitting on a half-done NROM-128 game, waiting for an excuse to finish it.
Like I said, there is no way to fully control whether existing code will be used, but even if you have a suitably small game that still has to be finished at least you will spend the time making the program as good as possible, instead of using the time to generate a lot of data, so I think 32KB is good either way.
Personally I think that 16KB is a bit to restrictive, and is only really suitable for very repetitive games where the difference between levels is just the difficulty, without many layout changes.
What about the 800 pound gorilla in the room... Art?
There's a reason it's called "Programmer Art" most of the time. Most art done by programmers sucks.
Does this mean it's okay to use ripped art, or get someone else to do art for you?
Dwedit wrote:
What about the 800 pound gorilla in the room... Art?
Ripped graphics should definitely not be allowed, IMO.
To me art has the same problems as music. I'm a decent artist, so graphics are not a problem for me, but I suck at making music (and coding music engines), while most of you can handle it just fine. I don't even know most of the terminology.
This means I'll either have to take a stab at it anyway (and accept that the result will be probably far from outstanding) or find someone competent that's willing to help me, for whatever price we agree on.
In my case, I'll probably give a shot at making the music myself. Looking for help is tempting, but if I ever expect to get better I gotta try it myself sometime.
tokumaru wrote:
Dwedit wrote:
What about the 800 pound gorilla in the room... Art?
Ripped graphics should definitely not be allowed, IMO.
Yeah, definitely. Same goes for ripped music.
But I was thinking about the music today, and I think collaboration should be allowed (and even emphasized). When it comes to re-using older stuff, at least in the 'unrestricted' category I believe that anyone's existing pixel art or NSF files, should be usable, unless it has been previously released in an executable NES ROM.
So it also follows that you could use other people's code, assuming they released the source for that purpose. NT2, Famitracker, random snippets of code from the Wiki and elsewhere. Doesn't seem like there is much collaboration with anyone's NES projects, but it seems like most of them do release their source, at least.
I think the minigame category is kind of self-limiting in that regard.. you won't use some epic song written in MML or some huge amount of graphics, just because of the size limit, if nothing else.
If everyone has to do everything on their own, I'm sure we'll end up with a bunch of silent games and demos. Also I think it should be considered that maybe we could allow someone could just opt out of being able to win a prize with it, and submit whatever they want that breaks all the rules if they just want to release something cool for the fun of it..
I don't do much NES deving these days since most of my projects are for other consoles (like SNES and Megadrive), so I don't expect to participate. But I could probably chip into the prize pool if there's enough interest among other people to have a NES compo. I was thinking cash, and maybe a ToToTek SNES flash cart if anyone's interested (I've got 3 other SNES flash carts so I don't really need it myself). I'll check back when the rules and deadline has been decided.
Quote:
So it also follows that you could use other people's code, assuming they released the source for that purpose.
For music you should probably allows covers. That will help people to get some music done, but it will still require some actual work to get a good-sounding cover (take chris' "Comic Bakery" cover for example). Not to mention that even commercial games on the old consoles / home computers had music that were covers or remixes of pieces of classical music or pop songs.
Sorry for not posting anything about this...I need to draft some rules...but I've had some troubles sleeping properly lately which results in me feeling kinda meh...got some sleeping pills now to get rhytm going. Once I got it going i'll draft some rules.
ok feeling better....when do you guys think the deadline should be?
I wouldn't expect a decent game to be made in less than 2 months. To be sure I would give at least 3, but maybe even more. If it starts soon, an interesting deadline would be the end of the year.
I like the idea of a release around the end of the year, any downtime people have can be playing the game
Still wondering what the size restriction is.
deadline: end of year (2010)
There will be two competitions. A "freestyle" competition where everything is allowed except other people's code.
The second competition will be a "mini" game competition.
The rules for freestyle:
-anything is allowed but other people's ripped code. Feel free to use other people's code with permission. (Ignore all other posts about this...I was high or something.)
The rules for "mini" game:
-must use nrom 128 (16kb max)
-can use chr ram but chr rom will not count towards the size limit in any way....cannot store data in chr rom and all unused graphical tiles must be blank.
the prizes arent set in stone yet but will probably be cash prizes donated by parodius.
edit: by "unused" tiles I mean that they cant be random gibbrish (then they could be code) if they're just unused graphics it doesnt matter that much.
Would be putting Ascii in the CHR-ROM be un-allowed? Just to dedicate this game or put your name in it somehwere besides the ROM since you would need the space....
Omnomnom my Mini-game is gona kick some booty!
Well asl ong as your code doesnt actually read it out I suppose thats ok...but you gotta email us that you put it in there first.
Okay, yeah I just think your name should be somewhere in it but shouldn't count against you
What kind of information about a game can be revealed before the competition finishes?
Well I don't think we have to keep anything under wraps, I already announced what my game is going to be, I guess I can start working on it now!
Maybe I can do a 8K/8K 2 in 1 combo cart....is that legal?!?!?!
Combo carts would get rather hard to rate...but i'll run it past memblers see what he thinks. Also I don't see any problems with talking about your games personally.
Yep if I can't it's too late anyway
This is gona be so awesome to see what everyone else will be working on at the end, I have a feeling there's going be some fun-as-hell games in here!
Jeroen wrote:
The rules for freestyle:
-anything is allowed but other people's code
I have a feeling a lot of people are going to have big problems with creating their own music engine. I hope to be able to explain basic music theory and acoustics on the forum and wiki.
Quote:
The rules for "mini" game:
-must use nrom 128 (16kb max)
-can use chr ram but chr rom will not count towards the size limit in any way....cannot store data in chr rom and all unused graphical tiles must be blank.
Does this also have the rule against use of libraries licensed from a third party?
Tepples, I need a sound engine for my games but man...They scare me. If you could make like a Nerdy Nights tutorial but just explain everything in one article and comment the source and show the flow of the engine that would be a gigantic help IMO....
I'm not gona have a sound engine for a while... :/
tepples wrote:
Does this also have the rule against use of libraries licensed from a third party?
I dont think thats neccesairy as thats the more "newb" friendly catagory...but obviously you cant copy someone elses entire program.
It's not that you can't use other people's code, it's that you can't use ripped code/music/gfx. If it's released for use or otherwise with permission, that's great.
A multi-game thing seems fine. Lots of games do something similar as part of normal gameplay, so it's just a matter of making it selectable if you want.
Maybe you'd be allowed to submit both games separately if you wanted, I don't see why not. Just say you can't win multiple prizes, seems fair.
tepples wrote:
Jeroen wrote:
The rules for freestyle:
-anything is allowed but other people's code
I have a feeling a lot of people are going to have big problems with creating their own music engine. I hope to be able to explain basic music theory and acoustics on the forum and wiki.
The only thing keeping DNSF2 from a proper release is the lack of a good documentation, and a lack of extensive testing on my part. I was kinda hoping to use this compo as my testing bed, but if anyone *really* needs it, I can provide an alpha copy of it. Just be ready for a bunch of potential bugs. :S
65024U wrote:
Tepples, I need a sound engine for my games but man...They scare me. If you could make like a Nerdy Nights tutorial but just explain everything in one article and comment the source and show the flow of the engine that would be a gigantic help IMO....
I'm not gona have a sound engine for a while... :/
There is a Nerdy Nights Sound tutorial on Nintendoage, but not in only 1 part. There is definitely too much to squeeze into one article.
Memblers wrote:
It's not that you can't use other people's code, it's that you can't use ripped code/music/gfx. If it's released for use or otherwise with permission, that's great.
Euhm yes...not sure what my reply to tepple's was about...I should stop posting stuff after 12...my mind stops working properly :-/
So we have one post saying "anything is allowed but other people's code used without permission", and another post saying "anything is allowed but other people's code" full stop. If you could edit your rules post to clarify this for the record, I would appreciate that. I don't want to be four months into a five-month project only to discover that the libraries I'm using are disallowed.
Yeah sorry...I think I must've been high or something.
So what's the story? Is this going to happen, or is this still under development?
As far as I can tell, it's on, and you have five months.
you can start programming..i'm waiting for dain to come back from cge so he can host a page on nintendoage.
Ok i'm going on vacation. I'll be back in about 1.5 weeks. Save any questions for then.
Well, I am doing another project right now, but when I'll be back to nesdev, I'd definitely want to continue my big project and not start another one.
Is it fair to participate to the contest with my big project that I started in march 2005 ?? It doesn't sound fair to me - but the contest might be the only way to make me feel forced to work on it seriously in my free time and eventually finish it. Other people here also have some half-finished projects so I'm probably not the only one asking myself this.
I could also re-use the game engine and rewrite a completely different game, but in 5 monts it sound just impossible for me alone. Even in a group or if I want to do just one level for a "demonstation" of the game engine, it would be really tight.
There's nothing in the rules as written against taking even one of your old released projects and adding four or five months of work to it.
It's fair, I think it's better that this leans towards being an 'NES production competition' rather than a 'coding competition'.
And just because the code is old, it's not like it got better with time, heheh. But anyone hopefully would become a better programmer over time, with any platform/language (for low-level stuff, at least). So it'd be like penalizing someone for being more experienced (not to mention that you can already use other people's code, music drivers, compression, etc.).
A more strict kind of coding compo would be fun too, sometime. If it's like the minigame compo, where the size is 1024, 2048 bytes or similar, then there really is no room to use anything but the most precise and concise code imaginable.
So jeorgon, now that 1.5 weeks have passed, what do you think ? Could the game I was talking about take part in the competition or does it break the rules if the project was started some 5.5 years ago ?
Has jeorgon passed away or something ? I need something to make me motivated to continue my game.
I must say that this "compo" doesn't look serious in any way.
tokumaru wrote:
I must say that this "compo" doesn't look serious in any way.
Idk, I am working on a little game XD
And plus we should give it time to get a website and set up
I'm waiting for the NA page to go up.
Other than that, this isn't some kind of global internet-scope compo or anything, this is just simply something that was put together on this website, pretty much for the users of this message board. Just because this isn't the next biggest/greatest PDRoms compo doesn't mean that we're not allowed to take it seriously.
I've offered to put in prize money so we can have that 2nd category, sure it's not a lot, but if I spent X hours working to earn it, I'd at least hope people will put some work into their compo entries.
I've been talking with jero for a while, I don't think he's wanting to be the main official organizer of everything for the compo, so what I've figured is this thread is mostly to finalize the rules and give notice.
So I guess what really need to be done is a simple announcement thread with the agreed rules. I've also estimated that the deadline will be pushed back, because of the slowness in getting this started/promoted. I've been pretty busy myself lately.
OK i'm back. (My vacation was extended sorry about that) I don't mind being the guy that has to put it all together....but its not as easy as it looks give me a break ok? I mean if you look at the title of this thread it started off as me just throwing an idea out. And no its not a very "official" compo. That being said...Dain should be back so I pmed him about getting a page up.
I don't know. It doesn't have to be an official compo with a strict deadline. How many people will participate? I don't think they will be hundreds of them. How many active members these days here? You can almost count them.
Instead what could be done is people decide to participate and give a flexible dead-line for people that have less time than others to work on their hobby. That way it's more of a "make a game for fun" than "damn, I have to hurry up for that dead-line if not I won't make it". I would hate to commit time and see that in the middle of it, some life event prevent to achieve that goal.
But some people may not agree with that approach because no strict deadline means no pressure or commitment. Me I don't mind to be more lax since I cannot commit time that much anyway
And how much strict do we have to be on the format? With the "1 man army" approach, even if you use an mmc5, I don't think you can make something better than someone that will use just an unrom. It all depends of the talent of the person and not the hardware in the end. So I guess hardware limitation means squat to me. In some case, it can help simplify some of the task for the programming side (scanline counter anyone?) when you're limited on time, experience and resource. We should more focus on the end result than small details. Even with all the hardware that exist today, how many great, exciting homebrew came out with some complicated mapper? The answer is none. So , like I say before, hardware limitation doesn't bring much. The more complicated mappers will just give more data or extra sound. More data doesn't mean a better game. Extra sound channel if you're a terrible artist doesn't make a better game. And even with more place for data it doesn't mean that in a short time that you can make a lot anyway.
Maybe my ideas are too different. People don't have to agree with them.
IMO a competition means that you gather a bunch of people, or the works of those people, at a given time and find out which is the best.
It's not like Usain Bolt can ask the olympic committee if he can run the 100m final two weeks after all the other guys because he's been stressed out and doesn't feel like he's had time to train enough
Ok the analogy isn't perfect because I doubt that anyone here has NES game development as their full-time job, but you get the idea (I hope).
So I'd say set a hard deadline, maybe sometime early 2011. And perhaps add a clause to the rules saying that the compo is cancelled if there are less than X entries.
I'm not sure if the the compo would ever really get going with a flexible deadline.
I won't have a lot of time to spend either, so I'll be going for a very small project for the minigame category.
Sure, people that have lots of time on their hands will have better results, but I'd really love to see a bunch of original NES games get released, no matter if some entries are much more elaborate than others.
If this will be a success one could even consider holding such compos on a regular basis, so if you absolutely can't manage to submit in time you could still save your project for the next compo.
Yep, these are my ideas. People don't have to agree with them either.
well, you still have the option to enter the 2K or 4K minigame compo here ...
http://minigamecompo2010.00freehost.com/
the 1K compo has ended but you still have 25 days for a quick 2K entry
and near 2 months for a 4K entry.
Who is actually working on an entry for this competition?
I am and I noticed that Dwedit is too.
I doubt that I'll have stellar sound effects, but the rest of my game is coming along nicely. My game isn't very original, but it should be a really nice reimplementation of a classic. I'm a bit worried about the copyright / trademark police and losing competition points for lack of originality. However, I am adding some nice polish to the game that did not exist in the original, and doing some NES specific things that the original system can't do. I can prove that I wrote all of the code myself though.
Right now my entry will fit into 16kB prog-rom, 8kB char-rom, NROM / no mapper / no WRAM. From what I can tell, this is qualifies it for the second of the two contests.
I've read this thread twice (once when originally posted and once again right now). I want to know precisely what the rules are.
How do we submit our entries?
Do we provide source too, or just a .nes file?
Is the deadline still 2010-12-31 23:59:59? Which time zone?
Are we allowed to copy any music engine code? If not, may we seek help from others?
Is someone going to merge all of the category #2 entries into a multi-cart and create physical entities for sale out of them? That would be awesome, but makes me nervous about the legality of my entry.
What criteria will the games be judged by?
Am I allowed to share my development ROM image with anyone to get feedback, or am I supposed to develop this in the dark?
I'll defeinitely not be entering. There is no way I could finish my game or even make significant progress before december unless I'd completely stop my studies for that time, which is impossible as I have a carpload of exams in early january.
I'm definitely out too. Aside from the lack of time from my part, there's the fact that so far this compo is just a big mess. No real rules, deadlines or anything, and the guy that is supposedly hosting it just vanished.
Yeah instead of planning on doing 2 simple games, I am having trouble of even finished and wanting to finish my first, and after that, I now have plans on a HUGE game so making another game will be difficult. If it goes through, I'll make something, but it won't be great by a long shot. XD It'll be interesting, though.
But yeah, I won't be making anything that great. School took my time down to 0 for programming and focusing on projects.
To answer one of clueless's questions: In the other topic, Jeroen said he's going to
put up a web site and extend the deadline. I have a half-done entry called Thwaite, which is my first use of trig in 6502 assembly, and I'll probably start working on it again as soon as he does so.
To answer another: The rules state "Feel free to use other people's code with permission."
And as a reminder, the remaining questions are as follows:
- To whom can the demo be shown?
- What is the rationale behind the rule against CHR ROM readback? Is it really necessary?
And can we seek some assistance from others (some long as we disclose to the others and the game judge that we did so). Specifically, I don't have a clue about how to do sound effects. I think that I can cover everything else on my own.
I edited in an answer to that question, but it appears you replied while I was using the facilities.
tepples wrote:
I edited in an answer to that question, but it appears you replied while I was using the facilities.
Sorry, Tepples, you are not allowed to pee until 8pm, EST.
Anyone interested in making a website? (just a simple page with the rules etc and where the entries can be posted) All my time has been taken up lately.(on a side note I wanna have the deadline around april is that ok with everyone?)
Jeroen wrote:
Anyone interested in making a website? (just a simple page with the rules etc and where the entries can be posted) All my time has been taken up lately.(on a side note I wanna have the deadline around april is that ok with everyone?)
I think that the deadline needs to be pushed back to at least April. With no rules, no official deadline, it wouldn't make sense to honor the originally proposed Jan 1st deadline.
Dain (nintendoage.com) said he would be willing to host a website in the
Nintendoage thread. We still need to hash out the deatils though. Judging is a big deal, especially if there are going to be prizes. Does there need to be different categories? Should the entries be designed for easy multicart use? Keep in mind, that multicart sales will provide money for next years competition (and any material costs from this year).
Didn't I make one before? I'll work on something if you need it, but it'll probably be better if I didn't because IE gets screwed when I do web stuff.
I'm working on one based on
http://sivak.nintendoage.com
I just like it because it is simple. We don't have to use it, (and I hope Sivak doesn't mind) but I might as well give it a shot since I have some time today.
Edit: Seems I no longer have a place to host files. Jeroen, did Dain set you up with anything yet? Send me a PM if you'd like to see what I've got, or if you want to temporarily host the files.
I would be happy to provide an account on membler-industries.com for hosting the compo, if it helps. Unless Dain still wants to, whatever works.
Memblers wrote:
I would be happy to provide an account on membler-industries.com for hosting the compo, if it helps. Unless Dain still wants to, whatever works.
I've sent Dain a message. We'll see what he says. If it doesn't work out I'll let you know.
Also, if we could hash out the competition details that would be nice. Hopefully by the end of the week we can have everything set in stone and on the website.
Specifically:
Dates
Prizes
Different categories?
Judges/Judging points
I know a few other have offered hosting, but I would also like to offer possible hosting. I work for a web development company and host on one of our co-located servers if everything else falls thru. I can also offer my services for layout and back end scripting
Ssuggestion: since I suck at making rules you guys revise them
maybe april is too soon even...maybe even later?
Being no time now and me being just super darn lazy, I can't say I'll have anything, but I'll try hard for the new deadline to have an idea and get it done. School taking up WAY too much time.
I think that it would be beneficial to know who is working on an entry. As far as I know, there are only 4 or 5 projects specifically targeting this compo. I would think that the number of entrants might affect the compo rules, prizes, etc...
I attempted to elicit a list of people working on compo entries a few months ago, and got only a few replies.
I don't know yet if I'm going to be making something for this compo. If anybody has ideas for small games let me know. I might whip up something in C.
I can also help with website design/coding/hosting if needed but not too interested in polishing the rules. I think the website should/could be a single page with logo on top and rules and submission form (or e-mail address). Doesn't need to be anything fancy.
Jeroen wrote:
Ssuggestion: since I suck at making rules you guys revise them
Don't mean to sound like a dick but maybe somebody else should take over the organizing duties.
thefox wrote:
I can also help with website design/coding/hosting if needed but not too interested in polishing the rules. I think the website should/could be a single page with logo on top and rules and submission form (or e-mail address). Doesn't need to be anything fancy.
Jeroen wrote:
Ssuggestion: since I suck at making rules you guys revise them
Don't mean to sound like a dick but maybe somebody else should take over the organizing duties.
That's kind of what I've been trying to do, just to get the ball rolling and some solid rules in place.
The website is simple, just working out the hosting details with Dain. How does "homebrewcomp.nintendoage.com" sound?
WhatULive4 wrote:
How does "homebrewcomp.nintendoage.com" sound?
Sounds kinda generic, or like a beer brewing competition. If it was called NESdev compo, it would be more obvious what it is. Assume there will be a lot of visitors who have never heard of nintendoage.com.
Earlier on this thread I've said what my opinion of what the rules could be, later tonight maybe I'll go over that again and distill it down to the basics.
If the deadline is moved a few months ahead, then chances are that I have an idea for a small entry completely unrelated to my current NES project.
I just need to know at which point it's legal to use an existing game's idea... After all, NESskake 2 is based on Snake, Battle Kid is based on IWBTG and Tepple's games are based on Tetris... I don't see who could blame me from cloning an existing game on the NES.
Bregalad wrote:
If the deadline is moved a few months ahead, then chances are that I have an idea for a small entry completely unrelated to my current NES project.
I just need to know at which point it's legal to use an existing game's idea... After all, NESskake 2 is based on Snake, Battle Kid is based on IWBTG and Tepple's games are based on Tetris... I don't see who could blame me from cloning an existing game on the NES.
I would hope that it is ok to "re-use" an existing idea! My entry is a clone of the Atari 2600's
Yars' Revenge!
What game idea did you have in mind?
I have in mind cloning Super Puzzle Fighter II Turbo, but doing a version of the game without the characters of course, and probably I'll modify a few gameplay elements so that it's not too much the same game.
Memblers wrote:
WhatULive4 wrote:
How does "homebrewcomp.nintendoage.com" sound?
Sounds kinda generic, or like a beer brewing competition. If it was called NESdev compo, it would be more obvious what it is. Assume there will be a lot of visitors who have never heard of nintendoage.com.
Earlier on this thread I've said what my opinion of what the rules could be, later tonight maybe I'll go over that again and distill it down to the basics.
Good suggestions. Question, should all entries require the full source-code?
WhatULive4 wrote:
Question, should all entries require the full source-code?
AFAIK, that's not the case in most compos.
Bregalad wrote:
I just need to know at which point it's legal to use an existing game's idea... After all, NESskake 2 is based on Snake, Battle Kid is based on IWBTG and Tepple's games are based on Tetris...
Game rules themselves are methods of operation and not copyrightable; see US Copyright Office publication
FL108: Games. Using characters that resemble distinctive existing characters more than required for the genre is infringement.
Atari v. Philips. But using characters that look like pre-existing stereotypes is not infringement.
Capcom v. Data East.
As for which side of the line Tetris clones fall on, this hasn't been decided in court, but consider that it's exactly the same as Dr. Mario but with a slightly larger field, different shapes (which had been well known even before Mr. Pajitnov released the first version), and different line clearing rules (which also appear in Pac-Attack). Super Puzzle Fighter II is very close to Baku Baku Animal, so you're safe there (but if you're worried, check with a real lawyer). I will let on that my entry has nothing to do with Tetris, Dr. Mario, Puyo Pop, or any other falling polyomino game.
Point of terminology: As I understand it, "Turbo" is the arcade and PS1 versions, which don't slow down with a lot of exploding, but the GBA version isn't "Turbo" because of all its slowdown.
Bregalad wrote:
I just need to know at which point it's legal to use an existing game's idea... After all, NESskake 2 is based on Snake, Battle Kid is based on IWBTG and Tepple's games are based on Tetris... I don't see who could blame me from cloning an existing game on the NES.
Nobody should blame you, because it's
always possible to find a common element between a newer game and an older concept. Since we're all gamers, it wouldn't be wrong to assume we all get our inspiration from other games.
Just because a game is similar to another game doesn't mean it's a belligerent ripoff.
Even clones sometimes have a lot of work done to them. Doesn't mean they're low quality or ripoffs, they're just new versions of games that inspired them with maybe more stuff. Sometimes clones are even higher quality then originals. Can't bring up any GREAT examples, but there's a couple.
At first I thought that my clone was going to be fairly easy to do. The neutral zone (implemented) and Qotile death animation (not done yet) were going to be a challenge. The rest I assumed would be "easy".
Well, the game is still conceptually simple. The devil, as they say, is in the details. Some parts of nesdev might seem simple to those of you who have completed finished games, but for me I learned a great deal, and still have far to go.
This is my first serious NES project. And for my first full game, I think that I choose fairly well. The game mechanics are fairly simple. I have a known quantity that I am comparing my results to (the original). I'm not taking on a project that is too large for my experience level.
In the future, I hope to have time to do something more ambitious. I have a few ideas in mind, but I don't want to leak them right now - other than to say that they are original ideas and not clones of anything.
Quote:
In the future, I hope to have time to do something more ambitious. I have a few ideas in mind, but I don't want to leak them right now - other than to say that they are original ideas and not clones of anything.
Well that's great ! I have a million idea for cool NES games, but chances are that few will ever see the light.
In the end a new game will always be a modified "clone" of an existing game I guess. What counts is to do something else than plain copy things. For example Dr Mario could be considered a Tetris clone, but it's very different, you destroy blocks by matching them instead of by completing rows, and you win when all viruses are deleted, which makes it funnier to play than tetris (IMO). The music is also goddamn good, instead of copying Tcheakovsky's music, which makes it way better. Puyo Puyo is also an improvement of tetris, but it's different, it has this cute aspect the other puzzle games lacks, which makes it a huge improvement as well.
Quote:
Point of terminology: As I understand it, "Turbo" is the arcade and PS1 versions, which don't slow down with a lot of exploding, but the GBA version isn't "Turbo" because of all its slowdown.
Huh ? The GBA version is turbo as well. The game is nommed like that just because it's based on Super Street Fighter Alpha Turbo 2. They just removed the "alpha" and repaced "street" by "puzzle".
Bregalad wrote:
Quote:
In the future, I hope to have time to do something more ambitious. I have a few ideas in mind, but I don't want to leak them right now - other than to say that they are original ideas and not clones of anything.
In the end a new game will always be a modified "clone" of an existing game I guess.
I disagree. I think that I have a really inventive idea for a game. In fact, I'm not worried about someone "stealing it", I just don't want to leak it before I have a chance to document it and scrutinize it.
In my mind, a game is only a "clone" if the author had knowledge of a previous example, and that he or she intended for the new game to have something in common (game play wise) with the original.
For example, never in my life before have I ever played a video game about "curling" (some weirdo winter Olympic sport). I don't know if they exist. But suppose that I made a NES game about curling. Then someone points out, "hey, that exists on the PSP", then did I make a clone? I based the game off a Wikipedia page, not an existing game that I've sampled.
idk, maybe I'm just splitting hairs.
And, no, I have no plans to make such a NES game. Although, I think that it might be kinda funny if someone else did.
thefox wrote:
I don't know yet if I'm going to be making something for this compo. If anybody has ideas for small games let me know. I might whip up something in C.
I can also help with website design/coding/hosting if needed but not too interested in polishing the rules. I think the website should/could be a single page with logo on top and rules and submission form (or e-mail address). Doesn't need to be anything fancy.
Jeroen wrote:
Ssuggestion: since I suck at making rules you guys revise them
Don't mean to sound like a dick but maybe somebody else should take over the organizing duties.
I'll actually agree.
Since nobody has done it yet, I went ahead and made a website for the competition. If we decide to use another host that's fine, but I thought this competition needed a little initiative so I just did it. For the record, I am happy to host this and future contests on my server space.
I have filled it in with the tentative rules posted by Memblers in
his rules thread. I will update it as we narrow down the actual rules and submission guidelines. If anybody else wants to take an active role in the organization of the contest (Memblers?), I can give you posting privileges (it's wordpress).
Site is here:
http://nesdevcompo.tummaigames.com
MetalSlime wrote:
Since nobody has done it yet, I went ahead and made a website for the competition. If we decide to use another host that's fine, but I thought this competition needed a little initiative so I just did it. For the record, I am happy to host this and future contests on my server space.
I have filled it in with the tentative rules posted by Memblers in
his rules thread. I will update it as we narrow down the actual rules and submission guidelines. If anybody else wants to take an active role in the organization of the contest (Memblers?), I can give you posting privileges (it's wordpress).
Site is here:
http://nesdevcompo.tummaigames.comActually I do have a website. Just waiting for Dain to setup the domain.
It's less of a blog style, and more of an actual website. I think everyone would like it, I just need to get it set up. Maybe memblers would like to host it temporarily till Dain gets things going.
The only reason I'm pushing for nintendoage as a host, is that it will always exist, and it will get more publicity that way.
Cool. Just let me know when you get the NA site up and I'll take mine down. I just wanted to help push things along.
MetalSlime wrote:
Since nobody has done it yet, I went ahead and made a website for the competition. If we decide to use another host that's fine, but I thought this competition needed a little initiative so I just did it. For the record, I am happy to host this and future contests on my server space.
MetalSlime, I think that it is great that someone has finally (I could have too, I guess I'm just as faulty as the next guy) shown some initiative.
WhatULive4 wrote:
Actually I do have a website. Just waiting for Dain to setup the domain.
It's less of a blog style, and more of an actual website. I think everyone would like it, I just need to get it set up. Maybe memblers would like to host it temporarily till Dain gets things going.
The only reason I'm pushing for nintendoage as a host, is that it will always exist, and it will get more publicity that way.
However, I do agree with WhatULive4 on both points:
1) Blogs are fine, but possibly not the best presentation style for a contest. They are more suited to a chronology of independent topics, not a contest with some (possibly) dynamic content (list of entrants and their submissions, all in a table on one page).
2) nintendoage.com would get a lot more exposure, and is more likely to exist years from now, where our works can be semi-immortalized.
Website is UP!
http://nesdevcompo.nintendoage.com/
Comments suggestions all welcome.
Bregalad wrote:
For example Dr Mario could be considered a Tetris clone, but it's very different, you destroy blocks by matching them instead of by completing rows, and you win when all viruses are deleted, which makes it funnier to play than tetris (IMO).
Then I guess that's why The Next Tetris (and the corresponding mode of Tetris Worlds) was based on drilling through garbage to clear one line on the bottom row.
Quote:
Huh ? The GBA version is turbo as well.
I own an authentic cartridge of the GBA version, and
the box does not say "TURBO".
Quote:
Super Street Fighter Alpha Turbo 2
The
Wikipedia article about SFA mentions no "super" or "turbo" version of any Alpha series game.
clueless wrote:
For example, never in my life before have I ever played a video game about "curling" (some weirdo winter Olympic sport).
Have you ever played the original WarioWare for GBA or GameCube, which includes a curling microgame?
tepples wrote:
clueless wrote:
For example, never in my life before have I ever played a video game about "curling" (some weirdo winter Olympic sport).
Have you ever played the original WarioWare for GBA or GameCube, which includes a curling microgame?
No, I have not. That's kinda funny though. I just picked "curling" totally at random.
I'm not very good at the mario-style games, fighting games or sports games, so generally ignore them. I totally suck at
Raymond Raving Rabbits and similar games. Which sucks for me, as my wife loves that kind of game, and I can't stand them. I prefer RTS, RPG and the various Zelda games and similar titles (Crystalis, Faria).
Quote:
The Wikipedia article about SFA mentions no "super" or "turbo" version of any Alpha series game.
All I have is a dump of my Brother in Law's cartridge, and it says "turbo" on the title screen. I don't know about the box or the cart, I'll might check that next time I'll visit them (if I remember).
Quote:
The Wikipedia article about SFA mentions no "super" or "turbo" version of any Alpha series game.
Oops
I guess it was based on Super Street Figthter II Turbo then ? I'm not much into the SF series anyways.
Quote:
I disagree. I think that I have a really inventive idea for a game. In fact, I'm not worried about someone "stealing it", I just don't want to leak it before I have a chance to document it and scrutinize it.
In my mind, a game is only a "clone" if the author had knowledge of a previous example, and that he or she intended for the new game to have something in common (game play wise) with the original.
Well maybe you're right, but even if you were doing a NES curling game you'd use similar element that other sprots games uses.
Personally I really hate non-racing sport games, so I wouldn't be too much interested.... you'd rather want to play the actual IRL game instead if you get the chance to.
Racing games are good because they allow you to have fun without taking the dangers of IRL racing, and with much less damage to the environment.
I agree there is different levels of cloning, the one is do do a really similar gameplay, such as Tepple's tetris clone.
If you do a platformer, noone can call it a Mario / Megaman / Castlevania clones because those games are characterised by their levels, which are copyrighted. This isn't the case for games such as Tetris, where there is no levels.
Then there is the stadium where you do a game similar in genre, but which plays quite differently such as Dr Mario being based on Tetris, or Final Fantasy being based on Dragon Quest. Then there is the stade where you come with many ideas merged from different games from different genres and mix them all, then it's not a clone anymore.
Yes, Super Puzzle Fighter II Turbo was named after SSF2T.
Bregalad wrote:
Racing games are good because they allow you to have fun without taking the dangers of IRL racing
Of course you don't mean
IndyCar, formerly Indy Racing League. Even so,
one of my employer's clients might beg to differ.
Alternate Universe Toad has
something to say about this as well.
Quote:
1) Blogs are fine, but possibly not the best presentation style for a contest. They are more suited to a chronology of independent topics, not a contest with some (possibly) dynamic content (list of entrants and their submissions, all in a table on one page).
2) nintendoage.com would get a lot more exposure, and is more likely to exist years from now, where our works can be semi-immortalized.
Wordpress doesn't have to be blog style. You can make everything with "Pages" instead of "Posts" and no one would be able to tell it wasn't a regular site. But that's beside the point. I didn't realize that WhatULive4 was so on top of this. I completely agree that NA is a better choice for hosting this. The placeholder site I put up is now down.
BTW, if you guys want, we have Wordpress available and also have Drupal installed on the server. For database needs, if any, we have SQL Server 2005 as well as MySQL. But if you want to go the static HTML route, that's cool too... just let me know if you need anything.
-Dain