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NintendoAge 2017 Weekly Contests Presents: Marble Madness Contest ends Sunday, 2/26/17 at 11 PM NA time

Feb 27, 2017 at 5:55:37 PM
Bea_Iank (4)
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(Beatrice Bueno Iank) < Master Higgins >
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Originally posted by: ninjistar
 
Originally posted by: Bea_Iank

I will have some two weeks off at the end of April to recover from a surgery.
Pester me about this then and I will take a look at it. I need to figure out how the map is stored in memory and work from there.
I know enough of 6502 Assembly to figure a thing or two how it works as well. It will be a matter of finding out the offset where the PRG is stored in this rom.
I too want to see a 180K+ plus score in this.
You may or may not be in my area of expertise now (IT/programming/data streams and file formats)...  

In Linux, use the 'file' command. 'file' will give you basic information on the ROM by using a local database of known formats.

I'm not exactly following what you're wanting to do based on what you said above. I've worked with the 6502 debugging maybe once, but I've done my share of x86 debugging. One would probably want to load it into the debugger and set breakpoints during specific behavior to observe the changes to system state. I imagine there will be a default offset to load the program into memory. For some reason, 0x4000 comes to mind, but don't quote me on that (it may be 0x0400, or something else entirely   ).

I'm happy to help, contribute, or sit back and have drinks and make funny comments.  8)
 


Well, the way I will start is by setting up a memory sniffer on the emulator that allows me to dump the memory to file with a single key stroke.
Then take several memory dumps, tick by tick, first of the wand appearing.
After that, I will add a direction key input as entropy and save the same amount of memory dumps so I can compare.
After I have a direction, I will start looking for the PRG to disassembly and study what is affecting the memory to study and determine what is happening.
Then no one knows. But in the end, we will know what conditions cause the wands to spawn.

-------------------------
A paragon of purity, chastity and innocence.
Fair reminder that I don't weigh the same as a duck, so I am not made of wood and therefore I am no witch.
Sometimes I don't know where in the world I am.

Feb 27, 2017 at 7:01:53 PM
mbd39 (1)
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(Michael ) < Bowser >
Posts: 6929 - Joined: 08/25/2015
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Originally posted by: Bea_Iank
 
Originally posted by: ninjistar
 
Originally posted by: Bea_Iank

I will have some two weeks off at the end of April to recover from a surgery.
Pester me about this then and I will take a look at it. I need to figure out how the map is stored in memory and work from there.
I know enough of 6502 Assembly to figure a thing or two how it works as well. It will be a matter of finding out the offset where the PRG is stored in this rom.
I too want to see a 180K+ plus score in this.
You may or may not be in my area of expertise now (IT/programming/data streams and file formats)...  

In Linux, use the 'file' command. 'file' will give you basic information on the ROM by using a local database of known formats.

I'm not exactly following what you're wanting to do based on what you said above. I've worked with the 6502 debugging maybe once, but I've done my share of x86 debugging. One would probably want to load it into the debugger and set breakpoints during specific behavior to observe the changes to system state. I imagine there will be a default offset to load the program into memory. For some reason, 0x4000 comes to mind, but don't quote me on that (it may be 0x0400, or something else entirely   ).

I'm happy to help, contribute, or sit back and have drinks and make funny comments.  8)
 


Well, the way I will start is by setting up a memory sniffer on the emulator that allows me to dump the memory to file with a single key stroke.
Then take several memory dumps, tick by tick, first of the wand appearing.
After that, I will add a direction key input as entropy and save the same amount of memory dumps so I can compare.
After I have a direction, I will start looking for the PRG to disassembly and study what is affecting the memory to study and determine what is happening.
Then no one knows. But in the end, we will know what conditions cause the wands to spawn.

Finally someone will unravel the mystery that has perplexed NES fans for years.

 

-------------------------
Reigning NA 2018 Beat Em Up Champion


 

Feb 27, 2017 at 7:06:27 PM
Bea_Iank (4)
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(Beatrice Bueno Iank) < Master Higgins >
Posts: 7543 - Joined: 03/09/2010
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I hope I have enough booze to endure the mental challenge that this will involve.
Testing my findings will be tough since I suck at the game when I am sober.  

-------------------------
A paragon of purity, chastity and innocence.
Fair reminder that I don't weigh the same as a duck, so I am not made of wood and therefore I am no witch.
Sometimes I don't know where in the world I am.

Feb 27, 2017 at 11:35:58 PM
Krunch (146)
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(My name's Krunch) < King Solomon >
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Originally posted by: Xerxes
 
Originally posted by: guillavoie
 
Originally posted by: Xerxes
 
Originally posted by: Bea_Iank
 
Originally posted by: Krunch

I have two save states, both from the same run, where the marble is parked with approx one second before a wand is granted (end of Aerial Race, and end of Silly Race). In both cases, if you start the save state and leave the marble sitting, you will get the wand at a specific time 100% of the time. But also in both cases, if you move the marble even in the slightest, you will not get the wand. Doesn't really put me closer to solving the wands but thought I would share this tidbit.
 

Can you send me those save states for memory sniffing at some point in the future?
They will be of a great help to decipher this.
 

This is actually a lot to start with.

It provides a method of easy observation. You can enter a debugger and step through the whole process and watch it happen.

It provides a test bed for hypotheses. For example I could easily eliminate the hypothesis that it is reading all button inputs as a source of entropy by pressing a and seeing if the wand still comes. Also you have already eliminated the hypothesis of wands at a specific place at a specific time.

It also provides a direction for searching.  You could move the marble, move it back, and then creat a second save file and note the time. Let the clock run to the same time and create a third save file. By comparing all three you may be able to find where critical data is stored.
 

Would you want to do it sir? This would be rad.

EDIT : Not trying highjack Bea on it, but having two heads on this wouldn't be too much for peer validation.

Bea will have to take point, but I am happy to cheer and lend ideas. My 6502 is horrible and my time is low. Getting 20 min together to spend on a complicated problem is very hard. As a scientist, however,  I can see how big of a gift that save file is. 
 

Yes Bea I can send you the save state files once you're ready.

​What's funny is how lucky I was to even get the save states. I had created a parked save state on Aerial Race before the hammers purely for two reasons - to watch their patterns, and to get a bit of practice. The wand showing up was completely accidental so that's why I have two states on the same run in the same position (one with ~45 seconds left, one with ~20 seconds left with wand at 18).

​The second save state was pure luck, I was parked near the end of Silly Race and just kind of blindly created a save hoping for a wand. 1 or 2 seconds after creating it, the wand appears...and both these states were on the same run to boot.
 

-------------------------
https://www.ebay.com/sch/bestpric...=
^^discounts for NA members^^

Feb 28, 2017 at 12:41:21 AM
ninjistar (29)
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(Mr E ) < El Ripper >
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I poked around tonight and realized I set up an environment for similar reasons in a VM a few years ago. I'll have a disassembly of Marble Madness ready shortly if any of you are wanting to begin  

-------------------------
On the hunt for prototypes...

Eat, sleep, collect, repeat.
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Feb 28, 2017 at 2:15:09 AM
skinnygrinny (68)
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(a.k.a. the grinder. kobra kai! 42 foot tapeworm. Dragon kid. Sqoon kid. Surfer brah!) < Master Higgins >
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Originally posted by: Commander Santa

This one took a loooooooong time.
Time for some Santy Sleep!

Hope you guys like it!
 


awesome stuff santa! 

-------------------------
 2016 - weekly contest "trash talker"

"...fated to pretend" - M.G.M.T.

Feb 28, 2017 at 2:15:43 AM
skinnygrinny (68)
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(a.k.a. the grinder. kobra kai! 42 foot tapeworm. Dragon kid. Sqoon kid. Surfer brah!) < Master Higgins >
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congrats to all the HOF nominees  

-------------------------
 2016 - weekly contest "trash talker"

"...fated to pretend" - M.G.M.T.

Feb 28, 2017 at 4:02:06 AM
Bea_Iank (4)
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(Beatrice Bueno Iank) < Master Higgins >
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Originally posted by: Krunch


Yes Bea I can send you the save state files once you're ready.

​What's funny is how lucky I was to even get the save states. I had created a parked save state on Aerial Race before the hammers purely for two reasons - to watch their patterns, and to get a bit of practice. The wand showing up was completely accidental so that's why I have two states on the same run in the same position (one with ~45 seconds left, one with ~20 seconds left with wand at 18).

​The second save state was pure luck, I was parked near the end of Silly Race and just kind of blindly created a save hoping for a wand. 1 or 2 seconds after creating it, the wand appears...and both these states were on the same run to boot.
 

You can send them right away.
With this kind of data in my hands, it will be so much faster to figure things out so I will start right away.
 

-------------------------
A paragon of purity, chastity and innocence.
Fair reminder that I don't weigh the same as a duck, so I am not made of wood and therefore I am no witch.
Sometimes I don't know where in the world I am.

Feb 28, 2017 at 6:16:34 AM
Xerxes (20)
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(Xerxes Dole) < El Ripper >
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Originally posted by: Bea_Iank
 
Originally posted by: Krunch


Yes Bea I can send you the save state files once you're ready.

​What's funny is how lucky I was to even get the save states. I had created a parked save state on Aerial Race before the hammers purely for two reasons - to watch their patterns, and to get a bit of practice. The wand showing up was completely accidental so that's why I have two states on the same run in the same position (one with ~45 seconds left, one with ~20 seconds left with wand at 18).

​The second save state was pure luck, I was parked near the end of Silly Race and just kind of blindly created a save hoping for a wand. 1 or 2 seconds after creating it, the wand appears...and both these states were on the same run to boot.
 

You can send them right away.
With this kind of data in my hands, it will be so much faster to figure things out so I will start right away.
 


Woot Woot go Bea go  

-------------------------
 

Feb 28, 2017 at 11:30:09 AM
Brock Landers (61)
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< Wiz's Mom >
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Awards handed out based on Santa's post

-------------------------

Writing about every SNES game - Volume VIII (#400-351) - Migrating to snesrankings.com as we speak
SNES Set - 716/723 (Casper)
Switch: SW-6880-6470-3131

Feb 28, 2017 at 12:30:07 PM
Krunch (146)
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(My name's Krunch) < King Solomon >
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Originally posted by: Bea_Iank
 
Originally posted by: Krunch


Yes Bea I can send you the save state files once you're ready.

​What's funny is how lucky I was to even get the save states. I had created a parked save state on Aerial Race before the hammers purely for two reasons - to watch their patterns, and to get a bit of practice. The wand showing up was completely accidental so that's why I have two states on the same run in the same position (one with ~45 seconds left, one with ~20 seconds left with wand at 18).

​The second save state was pure luck, I was parked near the end of Silly Race and just kind of blindly created a save hoping for a wand. 1 or 2 seconds after creating it, the wand appears...and both these states were on the same run to boot.
 

You can send them right away.
With this kind of data in my hands, it will be so much faster to figure things out so I will start right away.


 

PM incoming
 

-------------------------
https://www.ebay.com/sch/bestpric...=
^^discounts for NA members^^

Feb 28, 2017 at 1:48:17 PM
guillavoie (125)
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(Der Graue Kasten) < Master Higgins >
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Originally posted by: Brock Landers

Awards handed out based on Santa's post

Attaboy, that is great!


-------------------------


 


Feb 28, 2017 at 1:51:39 PM
Bea_Iank (4)
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(Beatrice Bueno Iank) < Master Higgins >
Posts: 7543 - Joined: 03/09/2010
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Got the save states, going to start getting my hands dirty tonight!

-------------------------
A paragon of purity, chastity and innocence.
Fair reminder that I don't weigh the same as a duck, so I am not made of wood and therefore I am no witch.
Sometimes I don't know where in the world I am.

Feb 28, 2017 at 1:53:20 PM
Krunch (146)
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(My name's Krunch) < King Solomon >
Posts: 3931 - Joined: 11/08/2010
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Originally posted by: Bea_Iank

Got the save states, going to start getting my hands dirty tonight!

"I love it when a plan comes together"

Looks like my paltry contribution is over  
 

-------------------------
https://www.ebay.com/sch/bestpric...=
^^discounts for NA members^^

Feb 28, 2017 at 1:55:11 PM
Krunch (146)
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(My name's Krunch) < King Solomon >
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Heh heh... Henrick. I should really change that fake name

-------------------------
https://www.ebay.com/sch/bestpric...=
^^discounts for NA members^^

Feb 28, 2017 at 4:05:19 PM
mbd39 (1)
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(Michael ) < Bowser >
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Damn. This has been an epic Marble Madness thread. The weekly contests continue to grow in popularity. The 2014 Marble Madness contest only has 171 comments.

-------------------------
Reigning NA 2018 Beat Em Up Champion


 

Feb 28, 2017 at 4:13:15 PM
Brock Landers (61)
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< Wiz's Mom >
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Originally posted by: mbd39

Damn. This has been an epic Marble Madness thread. The weekly contests continue to grow in popularity. The 2014 Marble Madness contest only has 171 comments.
Most commented threads:

#1 Ghosts n Goblins (2016) - 681
#2 Super Mario 3 (2017) - 669
#3 Double Dragon (2016) - 640
#4 Marble Madness (2017) - 616
#5 Battletoads (2016) - 527
#6 Tournament 1 (2016) - 395
#7 Isolated Warrior (2016) - 346
#8 Baseball (2016) - 340
#9 Legendary Wings (2016) - 338
#10 Tournament 2 (2016) - 317



 

-------------------------

Writing about every SNES game - Volume VIII (#400-351) - Migrating to snesrankings.com as we speak
SNES Set - 716/723 (Casper)
Switch: SW-6880-6470-3131


Edited: 02/28/2017 at 04:18 PM by Brock Landers

Feb 28, 2017 at 4:29:43 PM
mbd39 (1)
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(Michael ) < Bowser >
Posts: 6929 - Joined: 08/25/2015
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If a Marble Madness contest is that popular, I imagine that the Life Force contest is absolutely going to explode. That is going to be huge.

-------------------------
Reigning NA 2018 Beat Em Up Champion


 

Feb 28, 2017 at 5:02:43 PM
Xerxes (20)
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(Xerxes Dole) < El Ripper >
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Originally posted by: Bea_Iank

Got the save states, going to start getting my hands dirty tonight!


I would love to hear more about your process and findings.  

Maybe start its own thread?

-------------------------
 


Edited: 02/28/2017 at 05:03 PM by Xerxes

Feb 28, 2017 at 5:16:47 PM
Bea_Iank (4)
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(Beatrice Bueno Iank) < Master Higgins >
Posts: 7543 - Joined: 03/09/2010
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Originally posted by: Xerxes
 
Originally posted by: Bea_Iank

Got the save states, going to start getting my hands dirty tonight!


I would love to hear more about your process and findings.  

Maybe start its own thread?

I will do that as soon as I have some data to share.
I also will have to figure out how I can convert Nestopia saves to FCEUX or VirtuaNes saves.
Nestopia lacks a memory watch feature and most crucial, a frame advance feature.

Edit:
Nestopia source code secured... I will have to study it so I can implement my own frame advance and also memory dump function to be called along with the frame advance so I can easily access the data and analyze it.
Yay, fun stuff.

-------------------------
A paragon of purity, chastity and innocence.
Fair reminder that I don't weigh the same as a duck, so I am not made of wood and therefore I am no witch.
Sometimes I don't know where in the world I am.


Edited: 02/28/2017 at 06:35 PM by Bea_Iank

Mar 1, 2017 at 12:13:50 AM
Brock Landers (61)
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< Wiz's Mom >
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Happy birthday crazy lady Terminator

-------------------------

Writing about every SNES game - Volume VIII (#400-351) - Migrating to snesrankings.com as we speak
SNES Set - 716/723 (Casper)
Switch: SW-6880-6470-3131

Mar 1, 2017 at 1:33:31 PM
Bea_Iank (4)
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(Beatrice Bueno Iank) < Master Higgins >
Posts: 7543 - Joined: 03/09/2010
Brazil
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Thank you, Brock.

Nestopia will drive me crazy. I am going to need several drinks to get through this and get the frame advance and memory dumper done.

-------------------------
A paragon of purity, chastity and innocence.
Fair reminder that I don't weigh the same as a duck, so I am not made of wood and therefore I am no witch.
Sometimes I don't know where in the world I am.