From the grave...sorry guys. Just wanted to jump in since my name was being thrown around.

Thanks for clarifying this, Josh (and also to Dave for wrapping it up in the above post) - it indeed wasn't a disagreement among NA leadership. It was an innocent workaround that wound up being more trouble than it was worth. When NA was much smaller and the buyers/sellers were a tight-knit group, this was an ideal solution that kept us from losing money to a faceless third party for a simple game transaction.

As more and more random internet people found NA to be a captive audience and a hub of off-eBay commerce, the natural progression was to exploit weaknesses in the technique.

To be clear - gift payments are really no more or less safe than mailing someone cash. But cash between friends is a fine way to do business...think about when you're covering beer and gas money. This was always the initial understanding - here was an alternative that saved everyone money. But some people were bullied into using it - commonly, newer NA shoppers. So Jonas, you're also correct in that it was a matter of preference, and quite a few of the then-NA members did not use it (or Paypal at all, for that matter!)

I'm glad there's enough common knowledge now that new customers are not getting screwed, and I'm sorry for all of the precipitation from that thread. It certainly cost the community far more money than it saved, in the long run.

Well overdue bump

I think this deserves a bump. Had a transaction last week where someone tried to add in paypal fees after we agreed on a shipped price + transaction. I politely explained that I was not paying any additional fees, seller apologized and deal proceeded as usual (seller < 20 feedback).

However, he said that in his encounters at NA, he found this to be a common practice. That's what worried me.

State your policy upfront in bold. Do not negotiate fees after a deal is agreed upon. That is poor business ethics and will rub many people the wrong way.

I agree jonebone. I've had a few people try doing that, or trying to charge for shipping material after a price had already been established for the final shipped price. It's killed a few deals, unfortunately.

I state upfront to add 4% for paypal non-gift. I take normal and gift payments. Up to the buyer. Haven't had any problems. Then again I usually know the people I'm dealing with.

One of the issues I've had is that I'll often add the fees into the payment in order to send non-gift, only to have the person refund my payment. They'll say they can't accept non-gift, even with fees paid by my, due to being taxed at the end of the year. For me, if I can't send non-gift, the deal is over.

That is a pretty shady business practice right there.

Personally, I always say "Gift preferred, but not required, include fees if you don't want to gift"

That's in my FS thread. Then in negotiations I generally state the same thing... it seems very rarely does anyone actually do this when sending non-gift. They just send the agreed upon price non-gift without fees. I usually don't complain but it does bug me most of the time, especially when I'm not trying to make any money, just selling cheap to get rid of it.

That sucks. If people can't follow the directions of a transaction they should not be making it.

I've seen this lately and have been wondering. Why 4%? Aren't Paypal fees 2.9%?


As for not receiving the extra %, I think that it should be the seller's responsibility to start an invoice transaction and indicate the final amount. Then the buyer can verify the amount and agree or disagree.

People keep talking about gift payments like it is simply a 'preference' and should be up to the buyer and seller.

While that is somewhat true, let's also remember that it is against paypal policy and basically fraud to circumvent the paypal fees by using the "gift" payment feature when buying or selling goods.

So it seems to me that NA simply discouraging gift payments, but clearly stating it is allowed if the buyer and seller agree, is in effect, NA allowing fraud as long as people agree to it.

Furthermore, requiring / asking others to pay via gift to avoid the 1099 tax reporting, is tax evasion assuming you don't report the income anyway.

As part of PayPal's personal payment tab, there is a payment owed selection with no fees just like gift. No fraud. I'm almost positive PayPal includes all money received, including personal payments, when they send the 1099 misc. Forms, so there is no tax evasion. Don't make it sound like someone who prefers not to pay for PayPal's protection is a criminal, its just a preference.

Personally, I tell buyers that I prefer gift payments, but will accept a transaction payment just the same. No additional charges or discounts one way or the other. I find that most will pay using gift unless its a large purchase or sometimes newer members. Some will send extra to cover the fees without being asked.

Not to mention you need $20K before Paypal will report your transactions and provide you with a 1099

Maybe $20K limit, but the income is still reportable on your tax return whether you get a 1099 or not.

Also, no one's going to go to jail or burn in hell for using the gift payments inappropriately, but it is against the Paypal rules:

4. Receiving Money.

4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase. If you do so, PayPal may remove your ability to accept Personal Payments.

Also, the "Payment Owed" option is not supposed to be used for sales.  So if I sell an item, and have someone pay me with the "Payment Owed" option - I'm still violating the rules for my account.  If that's a risk people want to take, then fine, but it's not just that you have a preference to choose to have the paypal protection or not when selling items.  If selling items, they are supposed to be paid with the "purchase" tab and not the personal tab.

Finally, this from Paypal:

"Are personal payments that I receive counted in the total that will be reported to the IRS?