a partial removal and a full removal are not the same procedure, sorry man.

Sigh...

They perform the same procedure, but Hopkins is, "say", better at it.

A procedure is a set of steps to accomplish something. Not what actually becomes accomplished.

It doesn't mean the outcome is always the same.

By continuing to argue this Costa Rica vs. John's Hopkins issue, we are both getting further and further away from my original intent of posting that link.  There are multiple nations ranked above us with socialized medicine.  It works.  It works very well.

That's perfectly valid if that's the argument you want to make.  But overall that hasn't been the focus of your discussion.

But those rankings are calculated very poorly.  That's my point.  You can't trust what it says entirely.

I can assure you that under no circumstances would I support government handouts and wealth redistribution.

We live in a society where people who try harder and strive to succeed are given every opportunity to do so.

Dragon - factory workers in a skilled discipline make more money than I do, if they've been at it for awhile.

In general, people are paid a wage that demonstrates the value of the service they provide.  If you want to make more money, do a more valuable service.  If you live your life with the attitude that the man is keeping you down, you'll be oblivious to all of the opportunities to the contrary.

I hope my mentioning salary information doesn't make me a pariah around here.  Academically, I worked hard to get where I am, and career-wise I work hard to keep it. 

But I think if somebody is legitimately curious about career/salary opportunities, it does all of you a disservice to hoarde information and not share the knowledge that these opportunities exist. 

It doesn't have to be aerospace engineering, but if you are at all technically inclined (which I would imagine most here are, since we love archaic technology, at least) then there is a field that will suit you, that will pay you well.

I didn't coast, and it didn't just fall into my lap.  And I actively serve my community and help the less fortunate.  I just think the government is incapable for doing the same, effectively.

Dragon - I missed one of your comments earlier: day to day, it varies. I work a lot of contracts and do things that range from research and development of new concepts to developing/programming simulators for commercial/military customers. Sometimes flight test or wind tunnel testing can be involved, as well. It's a pretty broad discipline.

I'm not sure where this comes from. If I'm in dire need of medical attention, I go to the hospital.
My brother split his head open last year. He was rushed to the hospital, had medical treatment, was in a coma for days (almost a week). Was looked at constantly.

My grandfather (who's now passed away) needed emergency colon surgery 2 years ago. He was rushed to the hospital and got the surgery. Saved his life, until he passed away recently.

... I could think others.

... total cost: $0

It takes a little while to get an MRI up here, but I think thats mainly because we don't have many MRI machines. I think there is only one in Ottawa/surrounding areas.

Total cost is not $0. You're definitely paying for it in your taxes. Nothing is free.

I'll take the slightly higher taxes any day.

Ummm...more than "slightly".

Both those cases are emergencies, where you wouldn't be denied care in any nation with hospitals. Around here that is a big problem where illegal immigrants go to the emergency room to get free care, and everyone else pays their bill.

Better examples would be things like specialty care where the wait in Canada to just see a doctor is months or years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heal...). Doctors are paid so little they all move to the USA, making wait times longer. Everything is based on keeping costs down instead of providing the best care so new drugs take many extra years to be approved. The USA system may be broken for people who don't get insurance, but moving to a slower system with lower care isn't a good answer.

^^^ That is a valid point that would have directly impacted my wife recently.

She was able to get an appointment with a specialist within a week of experiencing neck problems. She received specialized care and surgery within the month. Basically, if she had been forced to endure the waits present in socialized medicine, she would have almost been guaranteed to have permanent nerve damage and would have potentially lost the use of her hand and arm.

I figured that it might be a pretty broad discipline, thats why I was wondering.. I was wondering if you guys have set area you have to work in everyday, or you get to tackle the whole field. Thats pretty cool, you get to do diffrent things. I know I cant work at a job if I had to do the same thing everyday.

As for more valuable jobs make more money thats not always true. Sanitation and food services are the most important jobs, yet they tend to pay very little.

Most jobs I would be interested in, that make any decent cash flow, you need college education.. I would love to go to college, but I simply aint even close to affording community college. I dont think you got a free job or anything arch, and im sure it wasnt easy getting where your at, but some people simply dont have the money to go to school. The only decent jobs you can get without school are trade jobs, and those usually only net about 30k a year. But even those are hard to aquire. You have to have been brought up and trained in the trade, if not, your SOL, or you again need to pay to go to school. They all want you to have two years of experience minimum to be hired. I work hard to have what I have which isnt much, im not angry at "the man" all the time, thats not my mentality. I just cant see how someone that makes over 100k a year can complaign about their taxes going up a little bit.. O well we all work hard, im sorry if your gonna have to wait till next year to get that new Ferrari mr Doctor man.. theres a starving child that just wants a bowl of soup.

Again if you have the money, you can still go see a doctor immeadiatly.. Nothing is stopping anyone with the means currently to pay for a specialist to go see one, adding universal healthcare would just add to the availible options. People without universal healthcare must wait years to see specialists, if they cant afford them, and in some cases they cant see them at all. That is why you can ask almost any canadian, no matter what their political affliation, what they think about universal healthcare, and they will all agree they cant imagine living without it. We are the richest nation in the world, and we have third rate countries looking down on us, wondering whats wrong with our governemnt when we cant even provide healthcare to the citizens.

Dragon - there are loans available for college, and they're worth taking if you're serious about getting through school in a timely fashion and into a career that pays decently. An alternative (that I know you, at least would NOT use) would be to join the military and obtain GI bill funding. A third alternative (probably too late for anyone here, but they all had the opportunity) is to have done well in school and obtained scholarships (many are available that are specific to "disadvantaged" students, or any number of specialty applicants)

If you genuinely want to pursue to a better financial path in life, then get out and do it. Find a subject that interests you, that will transition well into a career choice, and pursue a means to obtain the necessary education. Look into your major state universities, if possible, because they will have more funding and better programs. Also, the value of your degree from a full university will take you farther, in general, than something from the local community college. If that's the path you want to take, good luck, I'll be rooting for you!

Sanitation actually pays really well for what it entails. At least in many municipalities. In rural areas I have no idea. Food service (i'm assuming you're talking about restaurants) is not an essential job, at all. Grocers are essential, and farmers are essential, but the entire F&B industry is expendable.


Back on the topic of engineer - I have an office that I usually work from, but we have a sim lab and a wind tunnel. Also, we occasionally travel to customer locations for on site support.

^^^ I don't mean to knock CC degrees too hard, though. They do give you a leg up, at least, but they limit the number of disciplines you have to choose from, and don't really offer anything that is specialized.

Heck, my brother-in-law spent some time (while working F&B) and got a technical certificate in AutoCAD, which he has parlayed into a salary job paying about $35k/yr. So for certain fields you don't need much to get started.

Some parts of Canada and other countries have laws against private health care or insurance.  Doctors would choose to work privately because it pays far more, so the public system suffers even more.  Patients with money leave the country to get work done, removing that money from the countries economy.

Well option 1 is out. Dont have the best credit record for various reasons, some of them my fault, and some of them not. Option two would probly me the most practicle choice for me, and at times I have even considered it, but my wife wouldnt allow it anyway. And option 3 yea, I missed the boat on that, but I dropped out when I was 16 anyway due to financial strains I had to get a full time job. If I could get a loan though, which I may look around for, and have a little bit in the past, Its still gonna be almost impossible to keep working the two jobs I am to pay the bills, and go to school.

You would be surprised what you can be capable of, if needed. I knew some people that worked multiple jobs while getting through school. I didn't envy them, but it worked.

As far as Option 2...if you're in good health and can score highly on the ASVAB then you can do jobs that avoid danger entirely and transition well into civilian life. For instance, I have various friends that were analysts in the military and did some active duty service, but spent most of their time in the reserves. This actually led to their civilian career which is very high paying due to their clearance that they received while in the military. There is actually a lot you can do in the military that lets you feel good about what you're doing and isn't just shooting people in Iraq, or something.

If you're just going for loans, though, your old high school guidance counselor might be in a position to help (I know that sounds wierd, but I think continuing education for former students is part of their responsibility). Or, just go straight to the financial aid departments at the nearest fully accredited university or college. Make sure you learn the ins and outs of accredidation because some of the 'for proft' schools have just made up some accredidations that aren't worth anything to anybody.

Im sure the very small number of people that would be leaving the country for healthcare would be almost unnoticable. And if that is the only concern, its baseless. Americans already do that. They go to countries where healthcare is cheaper, and alot of health insurance companies have already caught onto this, some are even paying for your flight over seas to have the procedjure done. I have seen interviews with alot of Canadian doctors, and they say they are making a ton of money.. If they privitized they would have no gauranteed paycheck, they would just have to hope to find those rare people that dont want free healthcare. You have to consider that alot of the Doctors that leave Canada arent doing it just to make an extra buck.. they have the income to live or vacation whereever they want, so they choose to move to many places simply because they have the freedom to do so.. but for those that are leaving just to grab some cash.. there is a debate with canadians on that already. Theres no debate in Canada on wether or not to have universal healthcare, thats simply out of the question. The debate between liberals and conservatives there, is how to handle doctors leaving, and how to keep them in Canada on universal healthcare.