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Tech Talk AVS Accuracy? In depth questions on the AVS' accuracy

Sep 27, 2016 at 10:02:48 PM
Kosmic StarDust (44)
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Originally posted by: Great Hierophant
 
Originally posted by: Kosmic StarDust
 

SpeedDemosArchive allows you to use a Super Game Boy, a Super Game Boy 2 or a Game Boy Player to record Game Boy games.

The frame (refresh) rate of the Game Boy, Super Game Boy 2, Game Boy Color and Game Boy Advance is 59.7275Hz and the Super Game Boy is 61.1679Hz.  The Super Game Boy thus is 2.4% faster than the real Game Boy and SpeedDemosArchive multiplies your time by that percentage to come up with a true time.  For regular Game Boy and Game Boy-compatible Color games, the Super Game Boy 2 is the best bet for competitive record setting.

While SpeedDemosArchive says "you're going to have to use" the Super Game Boy, Super Game Boy 2 or Game Boy Player for a Game Boy capture, the Game Boy Player is the "suggested" method to use for a Game Boy Advance capture.  There are other devices that can play Game Boy Advance games on a TV.  

The Game Boy Player is rather interesting.  It uses the same crystal as the Game Boy Advance and thus outputs at the same refresh rate, 59.7275.  However, the Gamecube outputs video from the Game Boy Player in 480i or 480p at 59.94Hz, the NTSC standard.  With the dropped frames, the added latency required to upscale the graphics and the 480i flicker or 480p blur, you will experience a less-than-ideal image for record setting.  

However, there is unofficial software called the Game Boy Interface for the Game Boy Player.  This has an Ultra Low Latency version that will output in a proper 240p at a 59.7276Hz, almost identical to the handhelds' rate. SpeedDemosArchive does not specifically prohibit or allow this.
Interesting. I assumed there was no lag on the Game Boy Player as I reached level 30 on Tetris DX on a CRT and played until around 500,000 points or so. I would expect it would be impossible to play level 30 indefinitely if there was lag associated. I can see why this game was never used in competition though. I'm nowhere near as good at NES or GB Tetris...  

There is also Advance Game Port which runs a GBA-on-a-chip and outputs native composite when played on any Retrobit SNES clone (including SRT). You can even play GBA movies on the TV which operation is normally prohibited by the Game Boy Player. Nt like the quality doesn't blow chunks on a real TV though...  
 
Originally posted by: rezb1t
 
Originally posted by: Pheidian

Another thing that seems when talking with lag / slowdown - noticed yesterday that PAL video setting seem to lag a lot more, for example Mr. Gimmick original cart has huge lag and slowdown. Music and game runs on correct speed, but controller input lag is almost half a second (response seem sluggish when moving and jumping etc). Don't know why this happens, and it only happens with PAL settings. Gimmick! on NTSC settings works like a charm. (And PAL Mr. Gimmick works fine on PAL NES I have). I have reported it to bunnyboy though, hoping to get that sorted out as well in the upcoming firmware updates.


I noticed this too! I'm not familiar with PAL consoles so I didn't know if it was just a botched port of Gimmick, or what. But it does make sense that this is not normal. I also noticed the controller outright dropping inputs when I was using the Everdrive in PAL mode

Are you guys using 8bitdo controllers or wired? Perhaps NTSC TVs are doing some additional image processing when supplied a 50Hz signal. I'll try PAL mode on my ASUS monitor and post back results when I get mine. I'm also curious if the 2006 Sanyo LCD in our living room can sync to 50Hz. It displays NTSC50 just fine from my Atari and N64 (when using PAL ROMs) but crops the bottom of the screen off.  

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~From the Nintendo/Atari addict formerly known as StarDust4Ever...


Edited: 09/27/2016 at 10:08 PM by Kosmic StarDust

Sep 28, 2016 at 1:17:15 AM
Pheidian (14)
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Originally posted by: Pheidian

Another thing that seems when talking with lag / slowdown - noticed yesterday that PAL video setting seem to lag a lot more, for example Mr. Gimmick original cart has huge lag and slowdown. Music and game runs on correct speed, but controller input lag is almost half a second (response seem sluggish when moving and jumping etc). Don't know why this happens, and it only happens with PAL settings. Gimmick! on NTSC settings works like a charm. (And PAL Mr. Gimmick works fine on PAL NES I have). I have reported it to bunnyboy though, hoping to get that sorted out as well in the upcoming firmware updates.


I noticed this too! I'm not familiar with PAL consoles so I didn't know if it was just a botched port of Gimmick, or what. But it does make sense that this is not normal. I also noticed the controller outright dropping inputs when I was using the Everdrive in PAL mode

Are you guys using 8bitdo controllers or wired? Perhaps NTSC TVs are doing some additional image processing when supplied a 50Hz signal. I'll try PAL mode on my ASUS monitor and post back results when I get mine. I'm also curious if the 2006 Sanyo LCD in our living room can sync to 50Hz. It displays NTSC50 just fine from my Atari and N64 (when using PAL ROMs) but crops the bottom of the screen off.  
I am running on PAL LCD TV - well, not sure if there is much difference nowadays, they are all 100hz or so. I have got a 2011 Samsung anyway. The controller lag / input drop is what is happening, could not have put it in better way, the games run in correct speed and everything looks and sounds fine.

 

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Sep 28, 2016 at 6:50:01 PM
DefaultGen (28)
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Originally posted by: bunnyboy

NES runs at 21.477272MHz (oscillator) / 4 (clock divider) / 89341.5 (pixels per frame) = 60.0988Hz = 16.639ms
AVS runs at 74.25MHz (oscillator) / 1650x750 (pixels per frame) = 60.0000Hz = 16.666ms

So a ~0.02ms difference per frame. Top Tetris players start noticing gamepad lag around 6-8ms, so that is FAR beyond anyone's reaction times. Absolutely nobody will notice even on frame perfect moves. To get "accurate" speed run numbers it just needs that fixed scaling factor to convert time into frames. If you are counting frames on a video then you already need to scale depending the video capture device rate. You could be playing at 60.1Hz, recording at 59.94Hz, then playback at 60.0Hz. If you are hand timing with a stop watch then you need to add in the 0.1-0.3s for the human like on the track. If you are playing on an emulator then who knows what the actual rate is.

Take a longer world record, like Zelda at 28:50. 28:50 = 1730s = 1730000ms = 103972.5 NES frames. That number of frames would take 28:52.8 on the AVS. Around 3 seconds difference, but the record is already throwing away 1 second of precision by only specifying whole seconds. Looks like the record is coming down 30-60s at a time, so 2s is insignificant for now.

Maybe it makes a difference with a shorter game, like SMB, where fractional seconds actually matter. 4:57.260 = 297260ms = 17865.25 NES frames. AVS time would be 297742ms = 4:57.742, so it does need the scaling factor if you are in the top 20 of all time. Beyond that the scores are already not precise.

With around 1s extra per 10 mins, if your record is under 10 mins and you aren't keeping fractional seconds then your accuracy is already off by as much as the AVS is. For records in the 5 min range a fixed multiplier will get the wall clock time with no benefit to the player. For anything in the 20+ minute range the records aren't likely a few seconds difference anyways.

Interesting stuff, thanks for all the math.

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Sep 28, 2016 at 8:09:33 PM
rezb1t (0)
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Originally posted by: Pheidian

 
Originally posted by: Pheidian

Another thing that seems when talking with lag / slowdown - noticed yesterday that PAL video setting seem to lag a lot more, for example Mr. Gimmick original cart has huge lag and slowdown. Music and game runs on correct speed, but controller input lag is almost half a second (response seem sluggish when moving and jumping etc). Don't know why this happens, and it only happens with PAL settings. Gimmick! on NTSC settings works like a charm. (And PAL Mr. Gimmick works fine on PAL NES I have). I have reported it to bunnyboy though, hoping to get that sorted out as well in the upcoming firmware updates.


I noticed this too! I'm not familiar with PAL consoles so I didn't know if it was just a botched port of Gimmick, or what. But it does make sense that this is not normal. I also noticed the controller outright dropping inputs when I was using the Everdrive in PAL mode

Are you guys using 8bitdo controllers or wired? Perhaps NTSC TVs are doing some additional image processing when supplied a 50Hz signal. I'll try PAL mode on my ASUS monitor and post back results when I get mine. I'm also curious if the 2006 Sanyo LCD in our living room can sync to 50Hz. It displays NTSC50 just fine from my Atari and N64 (when using PAL ROMs) but crops the bottom of the screen off.  
I am running on PAL LCD TV - well, not sure if there is much difference nowadays, they are all 100hz or so. I have got a 2011 Samsung anyway. The controller lag / input drop is what is happening, could not have put it in better way, the games run in correct speed and everything looks and sounds fine.

 





I'm using wired official first party NES controllers. It's very possible that my monitor is doing some additional image processing which would add lag, the part that confuses me is dropped inputs! Scrolling through the Everdrive n8 menu is more deliberate and slow in PAL mode and you often need to press down twice to move down once

Games didn't seem quite as bad but I still noticed dropped inputs

Sep 28, 2016 at 8:40:17 PM
Kosmic StarDust (44)
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Originally posted by: rezb1t
 
Originally posted by: Pheidian
 
 
Originally posted by: Pheidian

Another thing that seems when talking with lag / slowdown - noticed yesterday that PAL video setting seem to lag a lot more, for example Mr. Gimmick original cart has huge lag and slowdown. Music and game runs on correct speed, but controller input lag is almost half a second (response seem sluggish when moving and jumping etc). Don't know why this happens, and it only happens with PAL settings. Gimmick! on NTSC settings works like a charm. (And PAL Mr. Gimmick works fine on PAL NES I have). I have reported it to bunnyboy though, hoping to get that sorted out as well in the upcoming firmware updates.


I noticed this too! I'm not familiar with PAL consoles so I didn't know if it was just a botched port of Gimmick, or what. But it does make sense that this is not normal. I also noticed the controller outright dropping inputs when I was using the Everdrive in PAL mode

Are you guys using 8bitdo controllers or wired? Perhaps NTSC TVs are doing some additional image processing when supplied a 50Hz signal. I'll try PAL mode on my ASUS monitor and post back results when I get mine. I'm also curious if the 2006 Sanyo LCD in our living room can sync to 50Hz. It displays NTSC50 just fine from my Atari and N64 (when using PAL ROMs) but crops the bottom of the screen off.  
I am running on PAL LCD TV - well, not sure if there is much difference nowadays, they are all 100hz or so. I have got a 2011 Samsung anyway. The controller lag / input drop is what is happening, could not have put it in better way, the games run in correct speed and everything looks and sounds fine.

 



I'm using wired official first party NES controllers. It's very possible that my monitor is doing some additional image processing which would add lag, the part that confuses me is dropped inputs! Scrolling through the Everdrive n8 menu is more deliberate and slow in PAL mode and you often need to press down twice to move down once Games didn't seem quite as bad but I still noticed dropped inputs
Dropped inputs should not happen with wired controllers, PAL mode or not. Something fishy going on. Does the controller act up playing the same game (PAL or NTSC equivalent) in NTSC?

 

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Sep 29, 2016 at 1:06:31 AM
Pheidian (14)
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Originally posted by: Kosmic StarDust
 
Originally posted by: rezb1t
 
Originally posted by: Pheidian
 
 
Originally posted by: Pheidian

Another thing that seems when talking with lag / slowdown - noticed yesterday that PAL video setting seem to lag a lot more, for example Mr. Gimmick original cart has huge lag and slowdown. Music and game runs on correct speed, but controller input lag is almost half a second (response seem sluggish when moving and jumping etc). Don't know why this happens, and it only happens with PAL settings. Gimmick! on NTSC settings works like a charm. (And PAL Mr. Gimmick works fine on PAL NES I have). I have reported it to bunnyboy though, hoping to get that sorted out as well in the upcoming firmware updates.


I noticed this too! I'm not familiar with PAL consoles so I didn't know if it was just a botched port of Gimmick, or what. But it does make sense that this is not normal. I also noticed the controller outright dropping inputs when I was using the Everdrive in PAL mode

Are you guys using 8bitdo controllers or wired? Perhaps NTSC TVs are doing some additional image processing when supplied a 50Hz signal. I'll try PAL mode on my ASUS monitor and post back results when I get mine. I'm also curious if the 2006 Sanyo LCD in our living room can sync to 50Hz. It displays NTSC50 just fine from my Atari and N64 (when using PAL ROMs) but crops the bottom of the screen off.  
I am running on PAL LCD TV - well, not sure if there is much difference nowadays, they are all 100hz or so. I have got a 2011 Samsung anyway. The controller lag / input drop is what is happening, could not have put it in better way, the games run in correct speed and everything looks and sounds fine.

 



I'm using wired official first party NES controllers. It's very possible that my monitor is doing some additional image processing which would add lag, the part that confuses me is dropped inputs! Scrolling through the Everdrive n8 menu is more deliberate and slow in PAL mode and you often need to press down twice to move down once Games didn't seem quite as bad but I still noticed dropped inputs
Dropped inputs should not happen with wired controllers, PAL mode or not. Something fishy going on. Does the controller act up playing the same game (PAL or NTSC equivalent) in NTSC?

 

Also using original first party controllers here. Bunnyboy has new beta firmware up which should fix this (but probably break something else) - so I will check it today when I get home from work. I'm sure there is something wrong in the firmware that can be fixed.
 

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Collecting licensed NES games: 710 of 711 - DONE! (Mah Jong Missing)
 

Sep 29, 2016 at 2:24:56 AM
Kosmic StarDust (44)
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Just be glad it's updateable. Unlike that Yobo clone from 2004, no amount of firmware updates can fixe the swapped duty cycle. If AVS has issues, Brian will solve it!  

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~From the Nintendo/Atari addict formerly known as StarDust4Ever...


Edited: 09/29/2016 at 02:26 AM by Kosmic StarDust

Sep 29, 2016 at 10:23:57 AM
Pheidian (14)
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Works now, a quick fix but Gimmick runs like a charm now - almost feels more accurate than on my NES.

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Collecting licensed NES games: 710 of 711 - DONE! (Mah Jong Missing)
 

Sep 29, 2016 at 3:25:53 PM
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Follow up: tested beta 6 as well! PAL games seem much more responsive. The Everdrive N8 menu is still dropping inputs like I described earlier, but it's not as bad and every game works flawlessly that I tried.

I think that perhaps the dropped inputs in the EDN8 menu are due to the Everdrive, seeing as the games work perfect. It's definitely not that big of a deal, just something to note. I can't compare to an actual PAL NES to be sure!


Edited: 09/29/2016 at 03:57 PM by rezb1t

Sep 29, 2016 at 7:42:54 PM
Kosmic StarDust (44)
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How's the expansion sound on those Gimmick carts?

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Sep 29, 2016 at 8:53:24 PM
rezb1t (0)
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Originally posted by: Kosmic StarDust

How's the expansion sound on those Gimmick carts?
Gimmick sounds absolutely amazing on the AVS! I have the japanese cart and I think the AVS sounds better than the AV Famicom and Twin Famicom AN-505-BK, partly due to the AVS fully eliminating the 60hz buzz that all NES/Famicoms suffer from. I don't have a classic famicom to compare it to that, though.

Here's a lossless recording of Sophia, the song that plays in Stage 7, played on the AVS using the 3rd tick in volume on the Exp Volume slider (0 being start, 3 being press right 3 times from 0)

http://www.mediafire.com/file/9qd...

The incredible audio is partly why I love it so much  

Sep 29, 2016 at 9:14:47 PM
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Originally posted by: rezb1t
 
Originally posted by: Kosmic StarDust

How's the expansion sound on those Gimmick carts?
Gimmick sounds absolutely amazing on the AVS! I have the japanese cart and I think the AVS sounds better than the AV Famicom and Twin Famicom AN-505-BK, partly due to the AVS fully eliminating the 60hz buzz that all NES/Famicoms suffer from. I don't have a classic famicom to compare it to that, though.

Here's a lossless recording of Sophia, the song that plays in Stage 7, played on the AVS using the 3rd tick in volume on the Exp Volume slider (0 being start, 3 being press right 3 times from 0)

http://www.mediafire.com/file/9qd4b3uh5jncefw/sophia_gimmick...

The incredible audio is partly why I love it so much  
Sounds great!  Thanks for sharing   

 

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Sep 30, 2016 at 12:28:49 AM
Kosmic StarDust (44)
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Originally posted by: rezb1t
 
Originally posted by: Kosmic StarDust

How's the expansion sound on those Gimmick carts?
Gimmick sounds absolutely amazing on the AVS! I have the japanese cart and I think the AVS sounds better than the AV Famicom and Twin Famicom AN-505-BK, partly due to the AVS fully eliminating the 60hz buzz that all NES/Famicoms suffer from. I don't have a classic famicom to compare it to that, though.

Here's a lossless recording of Sophia, the song that plays in Stage 7, played on the AVS using the 3rd tick in volume on the Exp Volume slider (0 being start, 3 being press right 3 times from 0)

http://www.mediafire.com/file/9qd4b3uh5jncefw/sophia_gimmick...

The incredible audio is partly why I love it so much  
That was amazing, thank you! No reversed duty cycles, yay!  

[Kosmic Stardust ducks head for oncoming onslaught]

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Sep 30, 2016 at 8:17:35 PM
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I see that some progress has been made in regards to Final Fantasy 7. It's slightly less glitchy now, and my dialog boxes are clear instead of garbled. Didn't seem to erase my save automatically either.

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Oct 1, 2016 at 1:54:59 PM
Eatitup86 (0)

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I do agree with these positive elements but I still do not understand why an option is not available for true clock rate regardless of how little it is off from the original.

If it is easy to alter as BunnyBoy indicated then it would be really great to see an option in one of the updates to turn it on or off that would time out when the change is not accepted just in case it is incompatible with that particular setup similar to how most modern systems work when changing their resolution.

Oct 1, 2016 at 3:52:52 PM
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Originally posted by: Eatitup86

I do agree with these positive elements but I still do not understand why an option is not available for true clock rate regardless of how little it is off from the original.

If it is easy to alter as BunnyBoy indicated then it would be really great to see an option in one of the updates to turn it on or off that would time out when the change is not accepted just in case it is incompatible with that particular setup similar to how most modern systems work when changing their resolution.

Because a lot of tv's will not accept/won't handle the actual refresh rate over hdmi. bunnyboy even gave an example of one of his tvs freaking out with an out-of-spec rate.

It's better to not give the majority of people an option that will break their setups. Look at how many people screwed up playing in video options with the PAL options, and went around crying to him for help. It's just not a good idea and will make his life more difficult.
 


Edited: 10/01/2016 at 03:53 PM by TheCavalry

Oct 1, 2016 at 8:02:16 PM
Eatitup86 (0)

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PAL vs NTSC is a totally separate topic. Having more options, especially something that provides the true NES play experience, is never a bad thing especially if it automatically rolls back in the case of incompatibility after say 10 seconds. Without that there are a lot of folks who I have spoken to who were previously considering purchasing the AVS on Twitch and now have little to no interest.


Edited: 10/01/2016 at 08:02 PM by Eatitup86

Oct 2, 2016 at 2:28:43 AM
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Originally posted by: Eatitup86

Without that there are a lot of folks who I have spoken to who were previously considering purchasing the AVS on Twitch and now have little to no interest.
This just seems like you trying to coerce bunnyboy to give you something that you want, even tho it probably won't work. If it won't work on most modern HDMI TVs, then why do you think these twitch people would buy it?
TheCavalry explained it perfectly well for you, did you just ignore that, or did you not understand it?

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Oct 2, 2016 at 2:51:53 AM
Kosmic StarDust (44)
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This again? No human can discern between a 0.2% difference in speed. You climb to the freakking summit of Mount Everest and it's a meter higher or lower than before. Who cares? Nobody who's climbed nearly 9 vertical kilometers to get there will notice the tiny difference. It's still freakking Mount Everest!  

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Edited: 10/02/2016 at 02:55 AM by Kosmic StarDust

Oct 2, 2016 at 2:44:04 PM
TheCavalry (11)

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Originally posted by: Kosmic StarDust

This again? No human can discern between a 0.2% difference in speed. You climb to the freakking summit of Mount Everest and it's a meter higher or lower than before. Who cares? Nobody who's climbed nearly 9 vertical kilometers to get there will notice the tiny difference. It's still freakking Mount Everest!  

I think the distinction isn't that they will notice a difference in speed. But, that over longer play sessions for things like speed runs the few seconds difference will make it impossible to claim some WR playthroughs on AVS. If they want to run WR speedruns, they should be running on as "pure" of a setup as possible (ie. original console) anyways and this shouldn't matter. But it seems to keep coming back up.

What is being overlooked by the loud minority is that the AVS was never meant to be a "mass appeal" machine with endless options. Who cares if a few whiners on twitch won't buy it since it's 0.2% slower? There are a few thousand others who will buy it for it's intended purpose -- to play their games on a modern tv and have fun. bunnyboy isn't selling these at Walmart. He isn't billing it as a speed running machine. He's selling it as a new device that will let us enjoy all of our games in HD for years to come.
 


Edited: 10/02/2016 at 02:50 PM by TheCavalry

Oct 2, 2016 at 4:48:32 PM
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Yeah, this is a little bit like asking a Formula One car manufacturer to bring their car up to straight ahead dragster specs.

Oct 2, 2016 at 5:17:10 PM
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I think it's reasonable to want to use an HDMI NES for speedrunning, for twitch or otherwise. However, I think the best approach would be to get speedrunning communities and organizations to understand the technical limitations of current monitors, and just use math to adjust the time to a regular nes. Because consoles with slight timing variances have been done before with official Nintendo hardware via the super gameboy and gameboy player, and those runs are accepted, I see no reason why this shouldn't be allowed, once sufficiently tested for accuracy.

(I think the AVS is very accurate but I would expect a speedrunning community to want evidence beyond anecdotal experience!)

EDIT: I say "HDMI NES" instead of explicitly saying AVS because really, all HDMI NES solutions have this limitation, including modding an av famicom or frontloader with kevtris' hi-def nes kit. Except those force the monitor to resync randomly within the first 10-20 mins of play after reset or power on. Not speedrun safe at all.


Edited: 10/02/2016 at 06:01 PM by rezb1t

Oct 2, 2016 at 7:56:49 PM
Eatitup86 (0)

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Just to point out BunnyBoy did not say that every monitor fails to work with the true settings using HDMI. He mentioned that his Hanspree monitor works fine with those settings but that his samsung does not. That is why I would like to see this as an option and do some testing on the 3 monitors, 2 capture devices, and 3 televisions I have here.

I also do not understand all the negativity towards wanting to have a feature that provides a more accurate experience. Speed running communities would not want there to be an advantage from one runner to another with that slight slowdown vs the actual timing.

When you run the AVS side by side with a NES the variance is pretty darn noticeable within the first 2-3 minutes of run time but when you run 2 NES' side by side you cannot see any difference for hours. I think there is a lot to be said about that difference.


Edited: 10/02/2016 at 07:58 PM by Eatitup86

Oct 2, 2016 at 8:29:49 PM
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Originally posted by: Eatitup86

If it is easy to alter as BunnyBoy indicated then it would be really great to see an option in one of the updates to turn it on or off that would time out when the change is not accepted just in case it is incompatible with that particular setup similar to how most modern systems work when changing their resolution.

Are you sure there's a way for the AVS to know if the signal is working or not?
 

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Oct 2, 2016 at 8:44:25 PM
Eatitup86 (0)

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It should not need to know that if Bunnyboy can implement a countdown timer to swap back to the other option like modern consoles and even your PC will do if you choose a resolution setting out of range. Alternatively it would be easy enough to fix by running the update function via your usb port again since that always returns the console to it's default settings.