I got this in the mail the other day:

It's not like they can bag on the economy, it would just cause greater panic.

What they're not telling you is the part where a couple of notable Democrats empowered Fannie/Freddie to cause part of the problem and reaped inappropriate benefits.

Yea, their not telling us about one instance, that occured in this disaster, but meanwhile they are telling us of the entire regime and failed plans and tactics that brought us here. They are telling us how giving all the bonuses to the rich, is not only ridiculous, but it also fails miserably. Rich people dont stay rich by unloading all their cash in the economy. Middle class have to pour all their money into the economy to survive, and also invest to move up the ladder, the poor and middle class drive the economy, always have always will. Try to point the finger on some specific instances, but for 6 years, it has been the Bush regime, and mccain voting with him admitadly 90% of the time (the change we need is this guys campaign for real?) that drove us into the ground.

Dude, you need to chill with the class warfare rhetoric.

I'll bet you didn't know that unless you're making at least $100k/year you're not actually paying your share of taxes for all of the public services and social programs. Who is this "they" that is giving "bonuses to the rich", when the highest income earners cover >90% of the tax burden?

Last time I checked we've had a Democrat controlled congress and senate for awhile, so they are totally complicit in the current shitty situation. By the way, Obama sided with Bush upwards of 50% of the time, as well.

You should probably stop drinking the Kool-Aide and get a real grasp of the situation. Neither major party is doing things that are in the best interest of the people. Giving the Democrats total control (presidency, senate, congress) is a bad idea, and for the next 2 years we will have ZERO checks and balances when it comes to socialistic legislation.

One of our wise forefathers said "A nation cannot tax itself into prosperity"...well these guys are certainly going to try.

I think we have plenty of US politics threads as it is. No one ever changes anyone's opinions on anything. If someone wants to hear about this stuff, its all over the TV and newspapers.

Sorry for the rant, I just cant wait until the election is over.

Im not talking any class warfare. Im just stating that that was Bush and Mccains intended plan, to give money to the rich and let it trickle down.. they are still saying that was their plan today. All I was saying is that middle class moves the economy, so incentives should be given to the middle class. Im not talking about corporations vs middle class, im talking about middle class vs Upper class, in terms of contributions to the economy. Corporations carry 90% of the tax burden, but corporations are run 99% by the middle class.

Having democrats for 2 years obviously hasnt been enough to stop 6 years of destruction. Its like their trying to stop an avalanche in mid strike. Theres not much they could do, but wait for the disaster to come to a stop, and then start the rescue. Thats why terms last 4 years. Its impossible to curve such things in 2 years, you dont even start to see the effect for 3 years.

Siding with someone 50% of the time? And.. thats like a coin flip, its a normal.. actually a perfect average, and its showing he clearly disagreed with a great deal of Bushes policies. 90% is almost the whole coin, its like an exact replica of 8 years of failure, thats not change.

I agree that neither canidate is perfect, but the thing I know we need for this country is change. So here my options for change: Pick candidate number one, who had voted 90% of the time with the current administration (not change). Also candidate number one will be challenged by the opposite party, and even if he truely did try for change (which his record doesnt show) he could easily be shot down, and out voted by the other party. Or I could pick candidate number two, who has voted against the current administration 50% of the time. This candidate would also have the power to make change with his party controlling washington.

So pick the same stuff thats been failing for two terms, and is now at a stalemate with the other branches of governemnt rendering it powerless. Or pick something diffrent that actually has the power to make change?

My choice is very easy. Though Obamas plans have not been proven yet, at least his plans have not been proven wrong. I choose the lesser of two evils.. good luck Mr. Obama.

His plans are proven to cost an obscene amount of money that can't possibly be covered by the proposed tax plans.

He will have to raise taxes on "ordinary" people to make ends meet. No matter what he says, the math doesn't add up otherwise. I can't believe in the abilities of a person that I know HAS to be lying to me about either (a) what he WILL do, or (b) HOW he intends to do it.


Frankly, I despise both of the choices we've been given in this election. McCain is a hero, and probably a great leader, but he's not what we need right now. Obama is a Chicago politician and a socialist...he isn't what we need either. (nothing against people from Chicago, but your politicians tend to have Federal prison time as part of their retirement plans)

We need to all write in for somebody that's worth a damn, for once. This is a fucking disgrace.

I would be up for the write in, but I dont think its would have much effect. At least if the race is close my vote counts with the other two.

everyone calm down! arch 8ngel you know im the one who can argue with you for hours since we don't agree on anything. But you have to cool it, just like Dragonlunch. I know you think your Republican views etc.. are correct but to me there complete backwards, unless you making OR have a CRAZYYYY amount of money there is no benefit to vote Democrat. You disagree with that and I respect that but you can't keep posting page long debates on what you think is right, cause a lot of us don't agree. I love you still arch 8ngel - Phil

I also agree with a previous post There is way to much political stuff going on this site IMO. Lets just relax and let it go, remember this site is for videogames. So why not just stop with the page long arguments. A lot of us have totally differn't views so hearing what you have to say about it is not going to change our mind just like its not yours. LETS JUST STOP THIS STUPID DEBATES. Say 2 things and let it go.

I personally really enjoy the political debates on this site. It's fine to disagree as long as we don't get into personal attacks. I say keep em coming

Yep I haven't seen anything in this thread that would warrant a yellow card yet.

Phil, this is the appropriate forum for this sort of discussion. "Everthing Else" means just that. If you'd rather stick to VG, there are a dozen other forums here at NA for you to click into.

So ordinary people make over 250000 a year?

The problem with our goverment is it has become very corrupt. The old saying power corrupts ultimentley. Remember when they found all that money in one of the congressmans frezer. They all sell out to bribes.

I believe this tax plan may be his intention but I make no where near 250k and I expect my taxes to go up under an Obama presidency.  I think he'll look at the numbers once he gets into office his spending is going to incur and raise taxes on basically everyone that pays taxes.  I hope the left with be there screaming along with the right if/when this ends up happening

This is my point exactly.  He cannot possibly fund everything he intends to do by that action alone.

He either MUST (a) NOT do everything he "promises", or (b) raise taxes on the middle class

You can't have something for nothing.

^but arch 8ngel it has been shown and proven that Obama would lower taxes to the Middle Class, and on pretty much every term be the better choice for the middle class. who gives a crap about the people with all the money there not the big portion of America. You can't sit there and tell me McCain would be better for the Middle and Lower Classes. He would only benefit the Upper Class.

You can change the topic to yeah but Obama can't do all this, but it still sits that overall Obama is a much better choice right now than McCain. Vote for McCain get more of the same.

Phil...Obama has promised to make the government bigger and have more entitlement programs. You don't need to be rich to disagree with socialism in the USA. And you don't need to look very far to realize that he is much more likely to raise taxes than to abandon his socialistic policies and programs.

McCain USED to be a genuine small government Republican. You seem to think that just because I despise Obama and hate socialism that it makes me some kind of nutty Neo Con. I want the government to be stripped down to what it's supposed to be. We used to be a meritocracy where hard work was rewarded and laziness was looked down on. Now everybody seems to think that no matter what you do for a living you have some kind of right to make a lot of money or have a lot of stuff.

Phil, roughly half of the middle class doesn't pay federal income taxes anyway. I have a fundamental problem with giving tax credits (welfare) to people beyond their original tax obligations (i.e. "earned income credit" type welfare). So many of these programs reduce incentive to strive for something more when you can instead sit on your ass and do it at my expense.

The left has thrived on this class warfare mentality that you seem to be clinging to. They paint some picture that "rich people" are getting richer by ripping you off, where the truth is most of them earn it. They make it look evil to actually be highly successful, and they do it to cause strife and confusion so that you fail to look at what their really going to do to screw you in the long run.

Through all of the subterfuge in the news and rhetoric, what you're failing to see is that we just need to have less government and fewer programs. We shouldn't NEED to be debating about who is going to pick up the tab...the fact is the tab is unacceptable. In this case LESS is MORE, and Obama just wants to heap more shit onto the pile.

Obama says he will not increase taxes, but he wants to revert to pre-Bush taxes -- Guess what people? That WOULD be a tax increase.

Obama also wants to increase tax to people who make between 100 and 250,000 each year. He also wants to have a capital gain tax on the sale of homes. So say Joe the Plumber (yes I know) makes 50,000 a year and sells his house. He just made 350,000 a year and is going to get taxed to all hell. Taxes he can't afford.

Obama's plan is NOT for the normal American.

I personally don't like either candidate, and yes I am Republican, but McCain is definitely the lesser of 2 evils here.

^^^ yup, removing the capital gains exclusion on a primary home is total bullshit. Nobody thinks about that when they're bagging on the "rich" people.

Well id like to say, that I like arch, hes cool. I also like debating, and hes a good debate partner, I dont think we have any tensions, not that I know of anyway, hes always treated me good. When he brought up the class warefare remark, I didnt take it as harshly as it may have sounded. Its just his game.



I never suggested or moved tword class warfare, I guess arch just assumes that thats the democratic parties intention and tricks, and were all being sucked into it, but that actually would be an extreme neo conservative rant I would expect to hear from Rush . Im sorry but if you make over $100,000 a year, your not a normal american.. thats what doctors make. Doctors are the cliche rich dudes. If you make $100,000 a year, and think your middle class, and your having a hard time meeting your taxes and making rent, I aint feeling bad for you. Your makinf double what a middle clas worker makes. Step outside of your house, and into a $150,000 house, and youll have no worries.



as far as socialism goes.. get used to it.. its the american way.. weve been this way since before your daddy can remember. If governemnt shouldnt step in to help the people of this country then what is it good for. Shut down all the public schools, cut of social security, and shut down any police stations in areas where the people refuse to pay. I know alot of republicans cant understand why our country would want to spend money on helping people, when the governemnt should be reduced to only regulating border affairs, and the military. Keep the cash flowing and the tanks rolling. If we start spending money on insane things like universal healthcare, and education, how will we be able to keep up our budget for pre emptive strikes on small rich litely armed countries? I mean this Iraq thing has been going on for years, and we are going way over budget, now not the time to be spending money on the people.

Dragon - making $100k/year for a married couple of two degreed professionals is about average if you have a B.S. or an M.S. and work in technical fields. If you live on the coasts, you need to make that amount of money if you ever hope to retire without the need for Social Security.

You're talking about wringing extra taxes out of the same people you need to work hard and innovate to move this country forward. That's not much incentive to do more/better work if the government is going to steal it and give to some lazy ass.

Strictly speaking the middle class are the MIDDLE tiers of income - they range from $35k/year to $350k/year, btw. Do a little research before you get presumptive about who actually falls into the middle class.


Socialism IS NOT the American way. It is a perversion of what this country used to stand for. Military expenses are a drop in the bucket compared to entitlement programs.

Maybe you didn't realize that lots of people are trying to emmigrate to the USA from Europe. These people are professionals and engineers. They want to escape to ridiculous (>50%) tax rate because that crushes innovation or the incentive to work harder.


Here is my big problem with all of this. Why do you think it is fair to take money from people who work hard for it (regardless of the amount) and give it to somebody else? Shouldn't people be free to make their own decisions about helping people through charities?

I think it's wildly inappropriate that the vast majority of Americans DON'T pay enough taxes to cover the tab, but they are willing to vote to add more stuff and take the money from somebody else. You don't have to be making enough money to suffer from that to realize that it's WRONG. This country was built on self reliance and hard work, socialism promotes neither virtue.

I'm not hard hearted, and I give a lot of money to charitable organizations, but I don't think it's the governments place to redistribute wealth. They serve one main purpose: serve the common defense, so that we maintain our freedom.


In what universe is it a neo con rant to want less government, less taxation, and less socialism? That is true classic conservativism, and what nowadays passes for libertarianism.


If you like all of this socialism BS, take a little trip to Europe, and where your pink leotard a la NGD

Oh Dragon, btw, on your example of how much physicians earn...you're way off base. Most of those guys clear in excess of $200k.

Do a little research and realize that for the modern professional couple $100k really isn't all that much money. Especially once the government puts their hand in the pie and takes the biggest piece.

Yes, let's just take MORE money from hard working Americans... LOL

I heard a lady talking to her friend in a checkout line the other day, she said "Juwan and I just need to have another kid 'cause we'll get more money." And yes, she was on WIC!

I turned around and told her, "How about get off your fat ass and work like the rest of us!?"

THIS is the fundamental problem with people, and this is just 1 example of 10s of 1000s.

PS.. she drove off in an Escalade... WTF?!

Good for you ckendal.. Driving an Escalade, using WIC?

I don't understand some people..