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"Console-perfect" NES emulation It's 2014. Why is this so hard?

Sep 30, 2014 at 9:51:59 AM
PatrickM. (1)
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Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

Originally posted by: PatrickM.

 Anyway, my question is why I can't get comparable performance with NES emulators as was achieved with SNES emulators a decade ago. Why is there such a performance gap between NES and SNES emulators? I don't remember having to deal with input lag, vsync, screen tearing or any other bs with ZSNES. Guntz: of course I'm not referring to zsnes as a perfect emulator, that's my point! An SNES emulator more than a decade old works better than any current NES emulator!
Have you tried other NES emulators  to see if you can get what you feel is comparable performance to an ancient SNES emulator?

Part of the issue is that since the SNES only had a couple of cartridge-hardware-types (unlike the plethora of NES mappers to support), it is considerably more straightforward to "safely" ignore certain expensive hardware features and have games that still appear to function.

I also wouldn't be surprised to find out that the actual hardware implementation of the real SNES is more refined and straightforward than whatever they cooked up for the NES, originally, probably making it easier to approximate, in general.







I have tried literally every popular NES emulator.

Nesticle, nestopia, virtualnes, Virtuanes, jnes, fceux, and some others.

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Edited: 09/30/2014 at 09:52 AM by PatrickM.

Sep 30, 2014 at 9:52:52 AM
arch_8ngel (68)
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Originally posted by: PatrickM.

Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

Originally posted by: PatrickM.

 


A 40ms difference isn't humanly detectable. It's more like 25ms with the listed settings. 
Just because you don't notice (visually) doesn't mean it isn't there, and it doesn't mean it won't impact precision gameplay.

25ms is more than a frame, and that is absolutely enough to make high-level play in certain games nearly impossible (i.e. use of delayed-entry-shift in Tetris)

But that means that certain quick-twitch reactions in the later levels of a game like Adventure Island may also be shifted by AT LEAST one or two critical frames.


And unless you are somehow actively tracking the latency with a high-speed camera, you actually have no way of knowing what it actually is.  You are making an educated guess about the MINIMUM latency based on the raw hardware specs.

 



Uh-uh. Not gonna touch this with a ten foot pole. Like I said, ask Ozzie. He's very knowledgable about such things and could explain it much better than I can. Also I am Not sure you are taking into account "hard CPU sync" I'm not sure what it does but it reduces input lag to almost zero when "hard GPU sync frames" is set to 0.
How do you know, or are you guessing?  

Have you actually tested it the way Bunnyboy rigorously tested the true latency of his HDMI NES versus other emulators, systems, and displays?




There is nothing magical that your computer can do in the background to reduce the latency of an LCD display, since that is a native property of the screen hardware itself.


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Edited: 09/30/2014 at 09:55 AM by arch_8ngel

Sep 30, 2014 at 9:53:28 AM
PatrickM. (1)
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Originally posted by: teh lurv

Originally posted by: PatrickM.

Originally posted by: django333

You could use SCART to HDMI to get a good picture on an HD television.



This sounds good but how much input lag will it add? My hdtv is already on the low end - 25ms, but I want to keep total input lag to less than 40ms. So it has to add less than one frame of lag for it to be acceptable. Plus, won't I still get weird graphics from upscaling?

The NES doesn't output RGB without modding. If you're talking other systems like SNES or Genesis, you'll need to convert that Scart RGB signal into a format the HDTV can handle. Most TVs either won't accept 240p or incorrectly treat it as 480i, which will add about 2 frames (~33ms) of lag as the HDTV de-interlaces and upscales the signal.

For minimal input lag, you'll need an external video processer like the Framemeister to handle the signal conversion.







Ugh... Yeah, precisely what I want to avoid. Those upscalers are expensive, just can't justify the price tag right now. Maybe one day...

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Sep 30, 2014 at 9:56:20 AM
PatrickM. (1)
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Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

Originally posted by: PatrickM.

Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

Originally posted by: PatrickM.

 


A 40ms difference isn't humanly detectable. It's more like 25ms with the listed settings. 
Just because you don't notice (visually) doesn't mean it isn't there, and it doesn't mean it won't impact precision gameplay.

25ms is more than a frame, and that is absolutely enough to make high-level play in certain games nearly impossible (i.e. use of delayed-entry-shift in Tetris)

But that means that certain quick-twitch reactions in the later levels of a game like Adventure Island may also be shifted by AT LEAST one or two critical frames.


And unless you are somehow actively tracking the latency with a high-speed camera, you actually have no way of knowing what it actually is.  You are making an educated guess about the MINIMUM latency based on the raw hardware specs.

 



Uh-uh. Not gonna touch this with a ten foot pole. Like I said, ask Ozzie. He's very knowledgable about such things and could explain it much better than I can. Also I am Not sure you are taking into account "hard CPU sync" I'm not sure what it does but it reduces input lag to almost zero when "hard GPU sync frames" is set to 0.
How do you know, or are you guessing?  

Have you actually tested it the way Bunnyboy rigorously tested the true latency of his HDMI NES versus other emulators, systems, and displays?








That is it's advertised function. I think it is the same thing as "g sync."

And I don't care if it is literally perfect. If I can't tell the difference when playing SMB, which I have played for literally hundreds of hours, then it's fine to me.

Also I'm not sure about not being able to reduce the lag of an lcd monitor. I think Gsync might be the "magic" you're referring to.

Edit: I see Gsync requires some special hardware, so it might not be the same as hard GPU sync. Still scratching my head...

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Edited: 09/30/2014 at 10:00 AM by PatrickM.

Sep 30, 2014 at 10:03:04 AM
arch_8ngel (68)
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Originally posted by: PatrickM.

 


That is it's advertised function. I think it is the same thing as "g sync." And I don't care if it is literally perfect. If I can't tell the difference when playing SMB, which I have played for literally hundreds of hours, then it's fine to me.
You may not be able to tell when you play it as a separate experience.

You very likely could tell if you played it side-by-side.


Anyway, if you want to claim this isn't a contributing factor to your angst with certain parts of Adventure Island, that is your prerogative.

I'm just trying to point out that "best case scenario" playing on a decent emulator is probably akin to the total latency stack of playing the real console on a relatively low-latency HDTV.  And that is definitely noticeably different from playing on a CRT when you switch back to CRT play (though not necessarily as obvious going in the other direction).

My own experience on this is that when you are playing with added latency you tend to compensate for it subconsiously as best you can.  But when you go back to the real-deal you suddenly feel like you have super-human reaction times in-game.


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Sep 30, 2014 at 10:06:08 AM
arch_8ngel (68)
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Originally posted by: PatrickM.

 Also I'm not sure about not being able to reduce the lag of an lcd monitor. I think Gsync might be the "magic" you're referring to. Edit: I see Gsync requires some special hardware, so it might not be the same as hard GPU sync. Still scratching my head...
I'm 100% absolutely positively certain that the minimum hardware latency required to render a display on an LCD is a function of the screen hardware and cannot somehow be reduced by external factors.  It is literally a native requirement of how those screens function and generate the display.

The best the signal-supplier can do is make sure that the signal is formatted in a way that renders natively so the screen can skip any slow-poke on-board algorithms for scaling.



You can definitely drive a display with a signal that makes the latency WORSE than the native hardware. (by necessitating the use of on-board scalers, etc)

But you fundamentally cannot drive a display with a signal that makes it better than the native hardware.



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Edited: 09/30/2014 at 10:06 AM by arch_8ngel

Sep 30, 2014 at 10:06:15 AM
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What's shocking to me is that Game Boy emulators can't get the Link Cable to emulate after all these years.

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Sep 30, 2014 at 10:07:50 AM
PatrickM. (1)
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Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

Originally posted by: PatrickM.

 


That is it's advertised function. I think it is the same thing as "g sync." And I don't care if it is literally perfect. If I can't tell the difference when playing SMB, which I have played for literally hundreds of hours, then it's fine to me.
You may not be able to tell when you play it as a separate experience.

You very likely could tell if you played it side-by-side.


Anyway, if you want to claim this isn't a contributing factor to your angst with certain parts of Adventure Island, that is your prerogative.

I'm just trying to point out that "best case scenario" playing on a decent emulator is probably akin to the total latency stack of playing the real console on a relatively low-latency HDTV.  And that is definitely noticeably different from playing on a CRT when you switch back to CRT play (though not necessarily as obvious going in the other direction).

My own experience on this is that when you are playing with added latency you tend to compensate for it subconsiously as best you can.  But when you go back to the real-deal you suddenly feel like you have super-human reaction times in-game.






Well, there is a fairly easy test for this. I can simply hook up my NES directly to my lcd as it has coax in. I can then switch back and forth between my pc and the NES just by switching inputs for an easy "side by side" comparison.

I'm going to take a nap now though. I'll report the results later.

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Edited: 09/30/2014 at 10:10 AM by PatrickM.

Sep 30, 2014 at 10:10:45 AM
arch_8ngel (68)
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Originally posted by: PatrickM.

Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

Originally posted by: PatrickM.

 


That is it's advertised function. I think it is the same thing as "g sync." And I don't care if it is literally perfect. If I can't tell the difference when playing SMB, which I have played for literally hundreds of hours, then it's fine to me.
You may not be able to tell when you play it as a separate experience.

You very likely could tell if you played it side-by-side.


Anyway, if you want to claim this isn't a contributing factor to your angst with certain parts of Adventure Island, that is your prerogative.

I'm just trying to point out that "best case scenario" playing on a decent emulator is probably akin to the total latency stack of playing the real console on a relatively low-latency HDTV.  And that is definitely noticeably different from playing on a CRT when you switch back to CRT play (though not necessarily as obvious going in the other direction).

My own experience on this is that when you are playing with added latency you tend to compensate for it subconsiously as best you can.  But when you go back to the real-deal you suddenly feel like you have super-human reaction times in-game.
 



Well, there is a fairly easy test for this. I can simply hook up my NES directly to my lcd as it has coax in. I can then switch back and forth between my pc and the NES just by switching inputs for an easy "side by side" comparison. I'm going to take a nap now though. I'll report the results later.

I think you are missing my point that BOTH of those tests are going to be inferior to using a CRT.

Also, who knows what awful slow on-board processor your LCD has for converting coax/RF to a useful signal.
Do you mean your LCD has RCA-in?  That would be a much better test.



But if you want to really notice the difference between emulator+LCD and hardware, you need to do side-by-side with an actual CRT.


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Sep 30, 2014 at 2:30:28 PM
PatrickM. (1)
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Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

Originally posted by: PatrickM.

Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

Originally posted by: PatrickM.

 


That is it's advertised function. I think it is the same thing as "g sync." And I don't care if it is literally perfect. If I can't tell the difference when playing SMB, which I have played for literally hundreds of hours, then it's fine to me.
You may not be able to tell when you play it as a separate experience.

You very likely could tell if you played it side-by-side.


Anyway, if you want to claim this isn't a contributing factor to your angst with certain parts of Adventure Island, that is your prerogative.

I'm just trying to point out that "best case scenario" playing on a decent emulator is probably akin to the total latency stack of playing the real console on a relatively low-latency HDTV.  And that is definitely noticeably different from playing on a CRT when you switch back to CRT play (though not necessarily as obvious going in the other direction).

My own experience on this is that when you are playing with added latency you tend to compensate for it subconsiously as best you can.  But when you go back to the real-deal you suddenly feel like you have super-human reaction times in-game.
 



Well, there is a fairly easy test for this. I can simply hook up my NES directly to my lcd as it has coax in. I can then switch back and forth between my pc and the NES just by switching inputs for an easy "side by side" comparison. I'm going to take a nap now though. I'll report the results later.

I think you are missing my point that BOTH of those tests are going to be inferior to using a CRT.

Also, who knows what awful slow on-board processor your LCD has for converting coax/RF to a useful signal.
Do you mean your LCD has RCA-in?  That would be a much better test.



But if you want to really notice the difference between emulator+LCD and hardware, you need to do side-by-side with an actual CRT.
 
Did you not see my initial post where I said I'm unable to use a CRT? I would love to just get a small 21" CRT but it's not an option for me right now.


I repeat: 25 ms is NOT noticeable under any circumstances. I literally just moved, I was playing on a CRT less than a week ago. My memory is not THAT bad. Whatever lag I'm working with on this display, it's negligible.

Displaylag.com has a good database of the different input lags of various displays. I picked a Vizio that has 25ms.

I do have RCA in but wouldn't that add lag also? I'd be using a toploader with a VCR as an intermediary to get RCA.

Anyway, I'm not really interested in getting into a debate over input lag. I'm interested in why NES emulation sucks so bad compared to other systems.

I think the NES has just been neglected by programmers, honestly.


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Edited: 09/30/2014 at 02:39 PM by PatrickM.

Sep 30, 2014 at 2:40:16 PM
arch_8ngel (68)
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Originally posted by: PatrickM.

 
Did you not see my initial post where I said I'm unable to use a CRT? I would love to just get a small 21" CRT but it's not an option for me right now.
 

*facepalm*

Yes, I saw you post about not being able to have a CRT.

This entire back-and-forth has been based on my post about your emulator (or LCD) experience being inferior to a CRT for the purposes of playing Adventure Island, likely increasing the frustration.

I realize you can't conveniently remedy that in your current situation, and my original post was just intended to be a "pat on the shoulder" of sympathy to say "I understand at least part of why you are finding that game so frustrating".




In terms of whether 25ms of delay matters (roughly 1.5 frames), you need to realize that there is a difference between "noticeable" (implying that you can see the difference) and the difference actually mattering in terms of precise gameplay (which may, in some circustances, come down to single-frame precision -- see the DAS situation in Tetris, for instance)

Something can not be readily perceptible or obvious to you and still matter at a high level of play.

A good test might be trying to fight Mike Tyson in Punch Out.  Individual frames matter in that battle, from what I understand, once you are stacking the latency with your own internal latency of reaction time.





In terms of NES being neglected, it is one of the original consoles to be emulated, and I suspect had one of the larger followings of emulator-programmers behind SNES, in terms of system popularity.

The unfavorable comparison to other consoles is almost certainly just a function of the archaic proprietary architecture complexity versus pretty much everything else out there.

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Edited: 09/30/2014 at 02:42 PM by arch_8ngel

Sep 30, 2014 at 2:49:03 PM
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Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

Originally posted by: PatrickM.

 
Did you not see my initial post where I said I'm unable to use a CRT? I would love to just get a small 21" CRT but it's not an option for me right now.
 

*facepalm*

Yes, I saw you post about not being able to have a CRT.

This entire back-and-forth has been based on my post about your emulator (or LCD) experience being inferior to a CRT for the purposes of playing Adventure Island, likely increasing the frustration.

I realize you can't conveniently remedy that in your current situation, and my original post was just intended to be a "pat on the shoulder" of sympathy to say "I understand at least part of why you are finding that game so frustrating".




In terms of whether 25ms of delay matters (roughly 1.5 frames), you need to realize that there is a difference between "noticeable" (implying that you can see the difference) and the difference actually mattering in terms of precise gameplay (which may, in some circustances, come down to single-frame precision -- see the DAS situation in Tetris, for instance)

Something can not be readily perceptible or obvious to you and still matter at a high level of play.

A good test might be trying to fight Mike Tyson in Punch Out.  Individual frames matter in that battle, from what I understand, once you are stacking the latency with your own internal latency of reaction time.





In terms of NES being neglected, it is one of the original consoles to be emulated, and I suspect had one of the larger followings of emulator-programmers behind SNES, in terms of system popularity.

The unfavorable comparison to other consoles is almost certainly just a function of the archaic proprietary architecture complexity versus pretty much everything else out there.
Lol, ok I wasn't sure what you were getting at!

I'm going to try Punch Out on the NES via RCA using the VCR. That should tell me whether or not the display has an amount of input lag that actually matters.

So the NES really is just a more complicated machine than the SNES? That seems rather counter-intuitive, but I guess it could be true. You certaintly seem to know more about system hardware than I do.

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Edited: 09/30/2014 at 02:50 PM by PatrickM.

Sep 30, 2014 at 2:51:24 PM
arch_8ngel (68)
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Originally posted by: PatrickM.

 
I'm going to try Punch Out on the NES via RCA using the VCR. That should tell me whether or not the display has an amount of input lag that actually matters.

 
Yeah, that game is probably a better test than Tetris, even, since I seem to recall some Punch Out pros on the forum saying how they found the game unplayable on an LCD once they reached Tyson/Dream.

There is some visual cue that he gives that is so close to your innate reaction time that ANY additional frames of delay mean the cue came too late.



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Sep 30, 2014 at 2:58:32 PM
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Unless you plan on going back and forth between emulation with slight amounts of lag and a "lag-less" CRT, you shouldn't have an issue because your brain and reactions will adjust accordingly. When playing a game normally on a CRT, you see a visual cue that prompts you to press the buttons. This isn't instantaneous, you have to process that information for a fraction of a second. So when someone makes a frame-perfect input, they don't do that when their eyes/brain notice that exact frame, but frames slightly before so their finger can react accordingly. You're aware of that window between seeing and reacting.

With the lag present the same thing happens only with a larger window. If you switch from CRT only to emulation only(with minimum lag), you will adjust over time to that larger window and be able to perform the correct inputs. Anyone used to playing on a CRT with have significant issues with extra lag at first, especially with games that depend on fast reactions. Most players will not have trouble using the emulator and performing how they would on a CRT once they allow themselves to adjust.

I'm not an expert at all, but that's how I see it working and forgive me if someone already pointed that out.

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Edited: 09/30/2014 at 02:59 PM by LudwigKoopa

Sep 30, 2014 at 3:11:35 PM
arch_8ngel (68)
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Originally posted by: LudwigKoopa

Unless you plan on going back and forth between emulation with slight amounts of lag and a "lag-less" CRT, you shouldn't have an issue because your brain and reactions will adjust accordingly. When playing a game normally on a CRT, you see a visual cue that prompts you to press the buttons. This isn't instantaneous, you have to process that information for a fraction of a second. So when someone makes a frame-perfect input, they don't do that when their eyes/brain notice that exact frame, but frames slightly before so their finger can react accordingly. You're aware of that window between seeing and reacting.

With the lag present the same thing happens only with a larger window. If you switch from CRT only to emulation only(with minimum lag), you will adjust over time to that larger window and be able to perform the correct inputs. Anyone used to playing on a CRT with have significant issues with extra lag at first, especially with games that depend on fast reactions. Most players will not have trouble using the emulator and performing how they would on a CRT once they allow themselves to adjust.

I'm not an expert at all, but that's how I see it working and forgive me if someone already pointed that out.
Let's say your reaction window is "R".

Let's say the total latency is "L".



When you are playing without latency (console + CRT) and a cue arrives, that is baseline available time to react:

T  -- the baseline time it takes for the image to appear and you to see it

T + R -- the baseline reaction from you, the player

When you are playing WITH latency (emulator or LCD, or some combination) and a cue arrives:

T + L -- the time it takes for the image to appear and you to see it with latency

T + L + R -- the baseline reaction from you the player


It gets even worse if you have additional INPUT latency (like with bluetooth).


The only way you can compensate for that and overcome the injection of "L" is to anticipate what is coming and act SOONER than is possible from in-game cues (i.e. you are guessing what is coming and acting ahead of time).







If the window to react is "R", then WITH latency your window is actually reduced to "R" - "L", meaning latency makes your reaction window SMALLER, not larger.


If the "window" got larger, latency would be a good thing, which it definitely is not.


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Edited: 09/30/2014 at 03:15 PM by arch_8ngel

Sep 30, 2014 at 3:23:00 PM
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Exactly, what I'm saying is you'll learn to change the cue to slightly before to make up for the latency. That's obviously not ideal but a human can adjust to that.

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Sep 30, 2014 at 4:04:31 PM
arch_8ngel (68)
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Originally posted by: LudwigKoopa

Exactly, what I'm saying is you'll learn to change the cue to slightly before to make up for the latency. That's obviously not ideal but a human can adjust to that.

That works for a lot of cases, but it does NOT work for the cases where "R - L" is too small of a reaction window, which was my point. (like the Tyson/Dream cue or DAS-vs-the-next-block in high level Tetris)


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Sep 30, 2014 at 4:49:55 PM
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I really wish I could get Ozzy 98 to comment on this. There was a detailed discussion on this not two weeks ago.

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Edited: 09/30/2014 at 05:10 PM by PatrickM.

Sep 30, 2014 at 4:56:52 PM
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I still have yet to make it to Mr. Dream, lol. I suck at Punch-Out, apparently.

Tinkering with the retroarch settings some more, I think it is optimal to synch video_refresh_rate to estimated monitor FPS. You just might have to try it a few times before you hit the sweet spot. I left the estimate running for a good 30 minutes and then hit accept to synch. I then played Adventure Island all the way to world 5 without a single audio/video hiccup. This is VERY impressive.

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Edited: 09/30/2014 at 04:57 PM by PatrickM.

Sep 30, 2014 at 5:04:08 PM
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Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

Originally posted by: LudwigKoopa

Exactly, what I'm saying is you'll learn to change the cue to slightly before to make up for the latency. That's obviously not ideal but a human can adjust to that.

That works for a lot of cases, but it does NOT work for the cases where "R - L" is too small of a reaction window, which was my point. (like the Tyson/Dream cue or DAS-vs-the-next-block in high level Tetris)
 

Arch, couldn't you at least give retroarch with the listed settings a try? You could then see for yourself how retroarch plus an HDTV compares in terms of input lag. It's not difficult to set up.

I'm still working on the punchout test



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Sep 30, 2014 at 5:15:54 PM
arch_8ngel (68)
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Originally posted by: PatrickM.

Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

Originally posted by: LudwigKoopa

Exactly, what I'm saying is you'll learn to change the cue to slightly before to make up for the latency. That's obviously not ideal but a human can adjust to that.

That works for a lot of cases, but it does NOT work for the cases where "R - L" is too small of a reaction window, which was my point. (like the Tyson/Dream cue or DAS-vs-the-next-block in high level Tetris)
 

Arch, couldn't you at least give retroarch with the listed settings a try? You could then see for yourself how retroarch plus an HDTV compares in terms of input lag. It's not difficult to set up.

I'm still working on the punchout test

 
I don't really have a convenient way to run an emulator on an HDTV right now, and that will be system dependent performance anyway, so what I see as deficiencies may show up differently on your system.


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Sep 30, 2014 at 5:18:48 PM
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I assume using hi-end "gaming" monitors are the best option for emulators? At least better than HDTVs

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Edited: 09/30/2014 at 05:18 PM by LudwigKoopa

Sep 30, 2014 at 5:22:25 PM
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Originally posted by: LudwigKoopa

I assume using hi-end "gaming" monitors are the best option for emulators? At least better than HDTVs

Yes. Although several of the smaller Vizio TVs from 2013 and 2014 have VERY low input lag. Check out displaylag.com.


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Sep 30, 2014 at 5:24:36 PM
arch_8ngel (68)
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(Nathan ?) < Mario >
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Originally posted by: PatrickM.

I really wish I could get Ozzy 98 to comment on this. There was a detailed discussion on this not two weeks ago.


I just found that discussion and I think he is missing the point that I made in this thread.

Yes, your reaction time exceeds the latency.

BUT the latency can be sufficient to shift the game event from a success to a fail in terms of your reaction.


If an event in a game is predicated on a fast twitch response of less than 250ms and you inject 25ms of latency (reducing your window to 225ms) you now have to perform 10% quicker, which may not be possible, on average! for instance.


So you won't SEE the difference, which isn't obvious until latency approaches 100ms, but it WILL impact the outcome of precisely timed actions.

(and aside from that I think 25ms of actual additional latency over a console+CRT is pretty optimistic)

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Edited: 09/30/2014 at 05:58 PM by arch_8ngel

Sep 30, 2014 at 5:35:16 PM
dra600n (300)
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(Adym \m/) < Bonk >
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Originally posted by: PatrickM.

I still have yet to make it to Mr. Dream, lol. I suck at Punch-Out, apparently.

 

Punch-out gets very difficult in emulation on a digital display. I bet if you pop it in on a very low latency digital display or a crt, you'd make it a lot further (though Super Macho Man, Sandman, and Mr. Dream/Tyson are genuinely difficult, regardless of setup)


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