no offense, but i'd be happier than a pig in shit if I was making 100k a year, the government could take 1/4 of it in taxes and i'd still be happy as hell

$60-80K is a starting salary for programmers around here, $100k is expected for someone in any technical field with many years experience. Doctors make FAR more than $100k. My landlord (dentist) is at around $250k and my knee doctor was over $400k. Sure they are rich but they also did the many years of work and massive school loans to get there. In the case of doctors they also need huge insurance, as one mistake could be permanently career ending.

I don't make near 100K but I expect a 10-15% pay cut under Obama. His increased penalties for self employment and small businesses will slow the part of the economy that the average person pushes forward the most. If he gets all his wishes then 5% of my income goes to people who don't do any work, 15% goes to those that failed to save for retirement, 5% goes to other people's health bills. If I make $60K then thats $15K taken away from me and given to other people, not even including the normal government taxes for police/fire/military/education. That's a pretty big incentive to move my business (on paper) to Mexico

Hating socialism doesn't mean ending all social programs. Spending more on quality education is never a problem. Social Security is ok until it becomes retirement. Welfare is ok until it becomes job replacement. Universal health care is ok when people care about their health and don't do things like smoking. These programs are in place to make sure there aren't homeless people dying on the streets, not so people can quit working just because someone else makes more money. The military may be the biggest social program, giving jobs to millions and producing the highest level of tech in every industry.

no offense, but if you and your wife both work at a skilled profession it's not that hard to do as an economic unit.

I agree that 100k for AN INDIVIDUAL is a ton of money, but for a couple, not so much.

I have a fundamental disagreement with people deciding they have the right to determine how MY hard earned money should be used when they aren't contributing to the system and are only reaping the benefits.

depends on where you live really,

100k as a couple in Madison, we'd be doing 1000x better than we are now

Haha, but your cost of living is so much lower there.

Most people don't live in Madison, WI. Excuse the generalizations about income since you're from a genuinely less expensive place to live. But 100k in WI is probably analogous to 200 or 300k on the east coast, and at least 300k in CA.

This is the problem with the way wealth/income are discussed at the national level. The average wage, nationally, is not at all representative of what the average person needs to earn to survive in high cost of living areas.

out of curiousity, how much do you make a year arch?

My problem with the whole "Obama stands for Socialism" thing is that his socialist programs aren't there to help those without jobs that are sponging off of the government, which is usually what people point to in this argument. Those people are already sponging, and will continue to sponge. Obama's socialist programs are for those people that ARE working very hard but cannot afford to send their children to a good school. It would be for those people that are working very hard, but their employer doesn't offer health care. I'm not worried about my taxes going up if I know that I won't have to buy health insurance anymore and my kids will go to school for free. I would expect my taxes to go up, but I'd be spending less because I wouldn't have a chunk of money come out of my check for health insurance.

I hesitate to offer up that kind of information...but nobody learns anything if people are unwilling to share information.

Currently I earn 63k/yr base salary as an aerospace engineer with a couple of years of experience and a master's degree. That is above average in my area (coastal VA), but within the norm. I could certainly make a lot more if I moved to CA...but the costs would kill me.

My wife makes more than I do, so our combined income is > $100k. She hasn't finished her degree yet, so when she does we expect a bit of a bump.

Please don't think that I'm being elitist or bragging about anything.
If your still at an age where you're able to choose a career, and you have an aptitude for math/science, engineering is an excellent career choice with a lot of prospects. And it offers a great way to help advance your country through innovation.

I really hope that someone you know doesn't have to wait 4 days when they are in dire need of immediate medical attention. This is what will happen if we socialize/nationalize healthcare.

Look at the cases in Canada.. They are a perfect example of this.

I do agree that some medical costs need to be lowered and/or the cost of coverage needs to be lowered, but it needs to largely remain privatized.

not at all, just curious because a persons earnings tend to have an affect on how they feel about certain subjects, for whatever reason.

damage, don't think it is all about how much a person makes, I agree almost 100% with arch's posts on politics and the government, and my wife and I make no where near 100K a year, last year our combined income was like 53K..

I don't think it's all about that, but it definitely has an effect on how some people view certain subjects

I also really enjoy when people say this type of thing.  Socialized medicine WORKS.  Please, any Canadian ring in here.  If you check out the data on the World Health Organization's website.  We are ranked #37!  THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA HAS THE 37TH BEST HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IN THE WORLD!!!!!!!  Costa Rica is #36!  Costa Rica has better a better healtcare system than we do.  You know who is #1?  France.  Oh wait, they have socialized medicine, don't they?

http://www.photius.com/rankings/h...

that's just disgusting...

saudi arabia has better healthcare than the US????

it's a giant fucking sandbox

You do realize that the WHO rankings result from an index of five health-related statistics: health level, health distribution, responsiveness, responsiveness distribution and financial fairness. Only health level and responsiveness are really justifiable measures of a health system. The remaining rankings fail to take into account differences in health outcomes not explained by spending or literacy, and instead attribute them to health care performance.

Go ahead, head to Costa Rica, see if they can help your Cancer better than John's Hopkins, etc.

But the problem with going to John's Hopkins is that you will loose your house and everything you have worked your whole life to have once your insurance company tells you that the procedure you just had was not justifiable or it was unnecessary.

Or go to Costa Rica and have a 100% better chance of dying from your illness.

I'm sure a place that was ranked above us by the WHO would increase your chances of dying by 100%. You really are not coming off well with this argument.

Actually, did you not read how the rankings are calculated?

It DOESN'T take into account the OUTCOME of the care.

Enough said.   I think you missed the boat.

wow, just wow. Of course I read how the rankings are calculated, but if all of the parts they do take into account would rank a place higher than another, I'm pretty sure the outcome wouldn't have a 100% chance of changing in the opposite direction.

You may have read them, but I don't think you're comprehending it.

Example:
I was just cured of Cancer at Hopkins. Cost $100,000
I went to Costa Rica, they were only able to remove part of my tumor. Cost $3,000

Let's say care level and responsiveness were all on the same playing field. And because Costa Rica cost $3,000 they get the nod for financial fairness.

They'd have already beaten the US in 3 out of 5 categories and would be ranked higher, but I'd sure rather have no Cancer then still have some left.



PS.. none of this is personal to anyone here.

but if John's Hopkins took out the entire tumor, and a hospital in Costa Rica only got part of it, it wouldn't be considered the same procedure.

Same procedure, different outcome!

That is my point, it doesn't take into consideration outcome.

Yea as far as socialized healthcare, I have already brought it up elsewhere in the forum, and all the Canadians chimed in saying they would never want to do without it (even the ones thats were saying they were conservitive rednecks). Its proven to work.

Im sorry to say arch, but thats the problem, alot of wealthy people, such as aerospace engineers think they are the norm, and they are just the average everyday working american. If anything an aerospace engineer would be considered on the extreme super upper tier of middle class, but most people would consider it upper class. If you say aerospace engineer in my middle class neighborhood, people will be amazed.. your a what? Omg thats incredible. The middle class are factory workers, school teachers, retail employees.. you know, the bulk of the workforce. 100k a years is extreme where I live too, and I dont live in a densly populated area, I live in Florida and we have alot more major cities than most states. Making $12 an hour is considered a good job. Yes middle class is calculated by averaging out income, but perhaps not the way you are thinking. You dont take the average of what everyone in country makes and just divide. You take the most common jobs, (what the average american works) and divide.. thats your middle calss figure.. You take the minimum wage jobs and ultra low paying jobs and divid, and thats your lower class and poverty line. And you take anyone who makes above middle class and divid, and thats your upped class. Middle class is what the average working man makes, its not a stretched line between billionars and mcdonalds employees. Example: I make 12k a year, John makes 50k a year, mary makes 30k a year, donal makes 45k a year, billy makes 51 k a year, and frank makes 1.2 billion a year. By some calculations the middle class there would be multi millionairs. By practicle calculations middle class there would be making around 40k a year. By the way, thats awesome that you got such a cool job. What do you do on the day to day in your department? sounds cool.

Some people here are saying all the tax dollars are going to all these lazy people. In reality its just not true.. some people may get away with some benifits with a little while, before they get cutoff. You cant just walk into the government building, and say.. I have no job, and I aint getting a job, give me money. There are alot of hard working people that depend on a little help to get by. I know people who work two full time jobs and they are falling behind.
As for socialism, how can you count Mccain out? He just voted for the biggest example of socialism in american history.

Even if you didi have to wait four days for healthcare.. its not like your trapped on the system, if you have the money you can go see any doctor.. the thing is if you dont have the money and your in america, you have to wait for a charity for months or years, by which time your dead.

Arch you make a common argument that you dissagree that government shouldnt get to decide how they spend your money, on helping people.. well i can easily make the argument that I dont agree the the government should get to decide how they spend my money on attacking people.