Hey everyone - I know that some folks here, both new and old, are enthusiastic supporters of what we've tried to do to push the NES development community, bring awareness to it, and foster ambitions of new potential developers to make new NES games and keep this passionalive.  I know, too, that some people here consider what we're doing some sort of antagonistic affront to the niche hobby that they feel entitled to protect.  I get it.  To each their own.  What we're doing is not for everyone.  But for those of you who aren't sure, and were wondering what NESmaker created projects may actually look like, I wanted to present a quick look at our awards show, which starts with all of the contestants' entries.  

So far, there hasn't been some overwhelming dump of shovelware, from-scratch NES homebrewers projects have only gained more and more attention, and the games being created are extraordinarily broad.  Keep in mind, these game demos were created in 30 days.  We can't wait to see where some of these games go, and we hope you, too, are excited about them.  We also hope that some of you who have been uncertain about what this will do to the development landscape feel a little better about it all.  In the end, we want more awesome games to play, whether that be with our tools or from scratch.  We hope that's true for everyone here.  :-)

Enjoy!

It says, "Video unavailable, Watch this video on YouTube, Playback on other websites has been disabled by the video owner." Also, keep doing what you do and don't worry about the haters.

Huh - you are correct...embedding was turned off! That's strange. But I fixed it. It should work now, with a cleared cache. And thanks for the good words...I hadn't planned on stopping any time soon. Just wanted to assert just how many of the trollish comments I've heard over the last year or two have turned out to be misguided, and welcome anyone into this as passion to come check it out :-)

There is a large ground between love and hate. I think many of us just want to know what we are looking at when a project appears ("scratch" homebrew, or NESMaker assisted). Thanks for your efforts in clarifying the differences on your end and as you can, I saw your post a while back, and best of luck with things; it seems like NESMaker has caught fire with a number of people, both creators and gamers.

Hey dude - you know I love you guys. The question I have to ask is...at the end of the day, why does it matter? For instance, I don't think people are decrying developers who aren't creating their own music engines, using famitracker and a pre-existing playback engine for their music...that's still "in bounds" and doesn't need its own categorization. I don't think people are splitting people who used Shiru's extensive tools to build their game versus those that did it all in notepad...that doesn't need a designation. I don't think people are questioning people who use existing emulators with debugging tools that they didn't create and software created by INL to flash carts for testing...that doesn't need some caveat or disclaimer. Using photoshop for graphics. Using tutorial example code on NESdev forums as a base. Using other people's assemblers that they didn't build. All of these things are tools that made development easier, and almost all NES developers are using them to varying degrees...but no one is considering them some lesser form of game or needing some disclaimer due to use of these tools that have made the job easier. If all we were seeing were shovelware examples that were bad reskins of some tutorials or something, that might be one thing. But look at a game like Dimension Shift...I think that stands right along side any homebrew demo I've seen so far from anyone. Why would it require a special classification? That's the part that's confusing me.

And there are PLENTY of trolls divebombing us from this community (but just as many that are gung ho about it...it's a completely mixed bag).

What I'd love to do is actually have a weekend game jam with some of those that have been developing with the NES for a long time and check it out fully to really understand *what* it is and what it can do, even in advanced workflows (because as you know, most developers make their own tools for their projects...this just took the "tool development" out of the process for devs struggling with just getting into it). I think that would be a blast anyway, just to hang out with everyone.

I don't really understand people's negativity either. NESMaker is just another tool. If you don't like it and don't want to use it, that's fine. Use what you like. On a personal note, I don't really care for "maker" type tools. I've tried a lot of them, and IMO to get really deep in them and use them for something really unique requires just as much effort and know how as traditional coding methods. That said, I wish the NESMaker team, and it's users, all the best and I look forward to seeing more completed projects from them. Some of the byte-off demos are really good.

Agreed 100% with New8BitHeroes. Methinks there is a bit of snobbery afoot. It's the same thing with old-school vinyl DJs looking down their noses at newfangled digital DJs. Get over it already.  Just like it's not the equipment that makes the DJ, it's not the equipment that makes the game designer.  A good set is a good set whether vinyl or MP3, and a good game is a good game whether "from scratch" or NESMaker.  I can't wait to see the games that will be created by talented people using NESMaker in the coming months & years.

I watched that entire video and there are some damn fine-looking new games that I'm now dying to play!  Love the awards show format -- brill -- I hope you do this every year!

I didn't realize there was any hate for NESmaker. I actually kinda assumed it was pretty universally liked, granted I don't go looking for peoples opinions. What's not to like? It's a way to get more people to take a whack at making a game that some people always dreamed of making. IF anything it gets more people introduced so that they will want to dive deeper and learn the coding. Seems like a win-win to me. Personally I love the stuff Ive seen made with it and hope it continues to grow.

My assumption is that there was concern a lot of garbage would come out and dilute attention from projects that people put hundreds of hours of work into. I know it can be difficult for developers to get their project noticed. It seems good stuff is coming out though, which I think is the point of this thread.

CMR - you said: "and IMO to get really deep in them and use them for something really unique requires just as much effort and know how as traditional coding methods."  Yup. That is absolutely true. And that's what people are discovering. But the quantity of people learning ASM due to the sort of instant feedback the tool has set up is pretty astonishing. The better looking games there all had significant modifications made to the underlying code. Development of this tool (and continuing development) came from years as an educator watching how young learners adapted best to learning code. Our hope is that eventually, for seasoned users, NESmaker becomes a great asset manager for rapid prototyping, while serving as a great gateway into keeping the thing alive for new users, young users, educational institutions, etc.

B.A. - you said: "My assumption is that there was concern a lot of garbage would come out and dilute attention from projects that people put hundreds of hours of work into". Yes. That was one of the concerns. (not arguing with this, agreeing with you - just elaborating) But then, the answer to that has a few facets. One...so far, there hasn't been some horrible flood of shovelware. The games, while unpolished, are pretty amazing for first time developers, and rival many of the NES developers first attempts....making it more akin to other development environments and engines in the modern world that allow non-programmers to still convey their ideas in game form. Two...I've spent hundreds, if not thousands, of hours on creating and refining it...there is still just as many man hours into this, if not more, than any homebrew project that exists. The only difference is, I'm allowing a community to use that as a springboard to create amazing things based on the same quantity of endless effort. And three...maybe most importantly...since NESmaker came into existence, we've seen Micro Mages, the third Candelabra game, NEScape (traditionally created NESmaker homebrews, I guess you could say) hit Kickstarter. They all surpassed expectation, and were highly supported by our user base who now is all about the scene, and may not be so passionate (or know what is impressive when they see it) without having a line into the community. Many NESmaker users have become NESdev users, and many are using it simply as an asset creator or manager, writing engines from scratch using its basic framework. I'm glad, after a year, these things are all happening, as they seem to address all of those things. Because as far as I'm concerned...more people into this, everyone wins, and I get more cool NES games to show my kid...which for me is the point!

Leatherrebel - you said: "I didn't realize there was any hate for NESmaker." Yeah, having worked in creative fields for the last 20 years of my life, I understand the nature...things that gain any level of success or popular traction tend to be eviscerated.  Especially these days. I knew that going in. I guess I was disappointed to see some of the people who KNOW me and how much I've tried to do for this community be such dissenters, but it is what it is. I accept it.  No bad blood or ill will from me.  At the same time, that doesn't mean I'm not going to boast about the amazing young devs I've seen go from zero game or programming experience to learning deep ASM concepts it took me years to learn. I'm super proud of the users of it and the community we've built. Anyone with a raised eyebrow or all out loathing doesn't bother me much, but I will certainly push through it to show these awesome games being created, and invite anyone who wants to come take part to join us. :-)

By the way, none of this is said with any level of defensiveness. I love this entire community and everyone doing these things. I will (and have) support anyone creating new NES games, even if they don't support what we're doing. For me, that's what it's about, and if there is one reason I'm glad for the newer NESmaker community is that it isn't splintered or jaded yet. It's focused and a thing that I think we're all proud to be a part of :-)

Btw...NEScape? Micro Mages? Candelabra: Estoscerro? Dude...this is a good year for NES homebrew stuff, eh??

It does not matter what programs you use, what matters is the person or team behind the project.

There might be some low quality games made with Nesmaker, but with that there will also be high quality games as well. All a program does is try and aid the developer.

It matters to many of us for many and diverse reasons. Not all of us are making judgment calls one way or another, we just want to know what we are looking at when a project pops up. If we were simply interested in any and every game, then there would be no difference between homebrews, hacks, translations, Taiwanese pirates, licensed, unlicensed, and NESMaker games. Some of us prefer one or the other, that is all.

The classifications in the present situation are due to a difference in activity. There is an entirely different movement when creating a game from scratch versus using someone else's game creation suite of tools. I think that you can appreciate that as a dev. For those of us interested in the process of grappling with the NES, learning 6502, and creating some sort of game in the end, that is far from using a tool to create a game. The end product is not the focus, but rather the process.

And again, any judgment calls one way or another are up to those viewing the games, don't take that away from them. There is no reason to hide that a game was made with NESMaker, and it would be dishonest to do so. Those of us that do use other people's tools give credit where credit is due; I cannot see using NESMaker being any different unless the dev feels the need to hide the fact in order to get around a perceived inferiority. That is their own issue, however, if they want to lie to the community and put forth work that is not their own. I cannot imagine that you advocate that either.

Most of us are not wishing you ill, not everything is a giant battle of NESMaker versus the world (I have seen some of the FB posts), but that may also mean that we are simply not interested in the products of NESMaker either. A nice middle ground indifference, which we should be more than allowed to observe. Maybe that will change in time, but obscurring the fact that they were made with it does not help its case in any situation.

There really is not much else to say than that. Be up front and honest, and do your thing. People will either like it for what it is, or they will not, but trying to tell everyone that there is no difference does not help the NESMaker case. Any of us that have been around for the last two decades and used game creation tools know otherwise, as do any of us that have learned to program.

Oh, hey, I'm totally down with people not being into this project, or this pursuit. That's completely fine. I didn't expect much of the existing development community to really dive into this, because they've built (and shared) their own tools, which they use. Which is why I think it's hilarious that there are some of those same people with animosity towards THIS project being "tool based", despite the fact that their development cycles also involve various tools. But I digress...yes, it's fine if folks are disinterested in this. It's disappointing they're not supportive considering the lengths I've tried to go to to support them, and it's disappointing they're not more jazzed about more people getting involved in NES development (and yes, MOST are doing deep dives into ASM). I'm not all that surprised, honestly. But don't pretend that there isn't a subset with an elitist attitude by some...and that just has me boggled, because the logic is rather senseless. I usually address hyperbole (or weird ad hominem) when I see it...or when I see misconceptions. At the end of the day, it doesn't rattle me, just surprises me.

But here's a riddle for you in the context of what you're saying. You know I've been working on the Mystic Searches project for years. The Mystic Searches engine was the base code for NESmaker. NESmaker is the suite of tools that we built in order to create Mystic Searches. We continue Mystic Searches in our suite of NESmaker tools, based on OUR long development cycle, created from scratch. So, when that game is finished, which category does it fall under? Should it be slighted as "only a game made with NESmaker tools", discounting 5 years of from scratch ASM R&D and tool creation in order to create it? Why would it not be considered in the same regards as something like Lizard or Micro Mages or Derek Andrew's stuff or the Sly Dog stuff (all of whom created tools, which they re-use as a starting point for new projects)? By extension, then, if Austin, member of the team, who has been working on Mystic Searches with me the entire time, uses those tools to create his Stellerator sci fi project, what about that? He was PART of the team that developed these tools and developed this engine...so if HE makes a game with it, is it a "real NES homebrew", or is it "just one that used the tool"? What if we make a sequel, and use our existing code base? What if we license our code base to another user? What if we create written tutorials based on our code base and people use that to create? This is why the whole conversation gets nonsensical.

But let's go down the path you are laying out here. You said "There is an entirely different movement when creating a game from scratch versus using someone else's game creation suite of tools". We are creating our own music composition software from scratch to aid in development. So, then, as a musician creating game music, should I regard anyone NOT creating a music engine from scratch the same way? Should I insist that anyone who uses tools like famitracker should make sure to qualify that they used said tools in their game, because someone who just creates with famitracker certainly has not put the same level of effort into creating their game music as we are, building an entire composition suite from scratch? Like you said - you should appreciate that as a dev. By your exact logic, they should SAY their music was created with FamiTracker, and that they had to rely on an external tool....no reason to hide it, and if they don't, they're lying to the community and putting forth work that is not their own...and I should feel compelled to tell them so. Is that how that should work?

Or anyone who uses Shiru's screen tool, or even Photoshop...we created our own pixel editor tools and our own screen building tools. So should we take the same opinion for anyone who uses a pixel editor or nametable generator that they didn't create from scratch? They just relied on a suite of tools to create their graphics rather than creating it all in hex like they did back in the day, or putting in the effort to build their own tools...they should SAY their graphics were created using external tools, and we should feel compelled to point out the difference...right? See how dumb that sounds?

Here's a list of tools literally on the NESdev site.  Which ones of these tools fall under the category that have to be declared for a game to be a "real" homebrew project versus one that depends on tools?  They ALL simplify the "from scratch" model of NES development for a purist, which most developers wouldn't be able to create games without...so really you're not talking about the difference of tools versus "from scratch", you're talking about what you personally, subjectively believe to be an acceptable threshold.
https://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/Tools

I mean...have YOU created an assembler? I'm not sure. Maybe you have. But I don't think so. And if you have not, and you haven't explicitly said that your game was assembled using a particular assembler crediting its creator, then you, too, are being dishonest by depending on effort that was not your own. How about an emulator...did you test your game using an emulator? Did you write that emulator? If not, did you use any of its debugging tools, which you did not write? Did you write your own flashing software to get it to a cartridge? Did you create all your graphics in notepad, or did you use an image editor? If the latter, did you create the image editor? Did you use any code gleaned from tutorials, advice on NESdev, etc? And when you did start writing code, did you write the notepad program?

People make tools to aid in software and game development all the time. Almost all AAA titles use existing game engines. Unity and Unreal are powerhouses for development, and are not some hobbyist or amateur development environment, they're widely used by professionals and users familiar with them are in demand at game companies. Most websites are built in Wordpress and Drupal these days, not in straight HTML editors. The reason that early homebrewers were even able to reverse engineer the NES to facilitate your ability to know how to create NES games is due to tools they built that you had no part in building that you ended up benefiting from, making your ability to program a NES game infinitely easier than it was for them.

I'm not sure why a game can't be judged on the merits of said game. If you can't tell how it was created...if it plays well and offers a compelling interactive experience, and it is original IP, that should always be the primary metric of whether or not its good. Considering there to be some hierarchy to it all means that any game current homebrews are creating are intrinsically inferior to "real" NES games of the 80s by default, since homebrewers have access to tools that they didn't back then. Maybe that's your opinion...but to me that's a ridiculous concept.

I mean this with all due respect, but most people today that learn to program learn to program with the aide of some sort of front end. If you had a master at JavaScript or C# that cut his teeth by programming games in Unity, you wouldn't try to suggest his projects were inferior or his coding ability crutched just because he used a tool to create.

Anyway, this wasn't to start any sort of ideological flame war here. I love ya, and respect what you do. I myself have spent 5 years directly in the thick of it. But I am also proud of the community of developers using NESmaker and what they're creating, and even as a developer who continues to develop from scratch, I do think their projects are worth showing, even if you think they're somehow inferior or less worthy in some way of the same level of recognition. And so here I am, showing them and letting people formulate their own opinions on that.  And I'll continue to pimp your stuff to them, and get the whole new community of NES afficianadoes excited about your stuff either way.  That was really the point of the thing.

Reading from your posts, theNew8bitHeroes, you seem triggered by a handful if haters that are not here. You are the only one in this thread using terms like "just a game done with nesmaker". I am sure it is hard to be in your shoes: you made an awesome tool, so awesome that it deeply change the kind of work needed to create a game. For sure it triggers passions, and you are certainly the first to get loads of shitty comments and insults. That's sad, but avoid letting the vocal minority confuse you. From my very external point of view (I wont use your tool because you done the fun part of the job), I see a range of opinions on your tool ranging from players slightly worried to have so much games that they cannot blindly buy all of them anymore to curious developpers asking themselves if it is worth a try.

Not everyone out there is a nagger.

The issue is not tools, but using someone else's tool in a way that eliminates the core of act of programming. Even when a NESMaker-er alters or adds code to the existing core, which has been encouraged, he or she is doing something more akin to using a Mega Man or SMB level creation tool. The "hacking of a homebrew" is about the most apt description I have heard from others, and I am inclined to agree on some level at this point.

If we are all making cakes, we all get the ingredients from the store. None of us are raising chickens, grinding flour, milking the cow, etc. for the basic pieces. Even if we did, we would still have to use tools to get the ingredients into a form usable for baking. If a subset also goes to the added step of buying a cake mix, they cut out an essential step in the act of baking a cake. NESMaker is something like that, in that it removes a core aspect of homebrewing. You still get a cake at the end of the day, no qualms there, but it is half someone else's cake.

You are correct, Mystic Searches is a in a unique situation. You are building your tools and making your own game, doing the programming yourself and/or with a team. The question of others that are part of the team creating games with the tool is something we will have to analyze as they appear. NESMaker as a whole is a big gray, murky sea. It is a unique case based on the activity that is happening when one makes a game using the tool.

You keep trying to push people into some sort of elitist camp that is easy to vilify, but all many of us want to know is that a project was made with it. They're not less worthy as games or finished products, but that is not the only facet that some of us are interested in when it comes to NES dev. Some of us would rather see the lowliest cake made from scratch than the award winning Betty Crocker dream cake.

There is not much else to say than that. Most everyone knows or feels that there is a difference in activity, and those that do not tend to exhibit some sort of vested interest in being perceived as legitimate (interestingly, those are the folks who tend to bring up the inferiority issue more than than anyone else, as some sort of rallying cry). Finding ways to describe the difference in a way that pays credit to it, and is not a solely negative description, is an ongoing effort that I think is worth pursuing. The best support NESMaker games can get is to be clear about what they are. Maybe in time no one will care, or maybe they will even be prideful of using the tool, who knows. That type of thing takes time, however, and we are a long ways away from that point.

I'm directly responding, in that case, to the underlying core of SoleGoose's response. That NESmaker games should be regarded differently because they make use of "tools". But, like I said above, that's a bit disingenuous, as having met dozens of homebrewers who create "from scratch", they ALL make use of tools that make development exponentially easier than it was for developers in the 80s. In fact, they all make use of tools that the earliest homebrewers didn't have access to. What some people consider the acceptable threshold is whatever tools they personally made use of. But unless someone writes their own assembler, music engine, creates all graphics in hex tables, sticks to hand soldering eproms for testing rather than emulators, etc...they are making use of "tools" as well. At what level, exactly, is the cutoff for what is considered "from scratch"? My point is that it's a nonsensical argument. This isn't the voice of a person who is "triggered". Just pointing out the hypocrisy inherent in that level of thinking.

I do, and have, support everyone excited for and learning how to do this thing. I don't put them in sectional boxes or rank their level of investment in some sort of hierarchy. I've seen a very welcoming, supportive community that I was happy to be a part of be infected with pretension and toxicity in the last few years, and I find that unfortunate, especially for new aspiring developers who are the future of keeping this passion alive. THAT "triggers" me, I guess...but that's not what this thread is about. This is just a reaction to the ironic notion that "NESmaker games" should be singled out so as not to be confused with from-scratch projects on the basis a tool was involved to make development easier...this sentiment usually expressed by people who I know full well use PLENTY of tools to make development easier.

I would say too that as a community, so far as I can tell, we have all been pretty respectful of your project. If you do not see threads extolling its virtues, you also do not see those attacking it. If our private conversations turn other ways (which they may or may not), then at least we have done you and those using the tool the courtesy of keeping those mostly private. This is one reason why I would rather see clarification of projects versus debates on why projects should be clarified or not. Leave it up to other folks who are less invested. Show off what it can do without also using the thread as a way to start a debate, which was most of the OP and also the thread title. If people cannot get interested in NESMaker without the controversy, then that says quite a bit.

In the OP I addressed the most common concerns I've heard. You responded by expressing why NESmaker games should be singled out, and why some people find them less interesting.  But I’m ‘causing’ controversy?...

Again - have you listed all of the tools you have used that you did not create that make development easier on all of your homebrew projects? That's not a petulant response, I'm legitimately curious. Did you credit the assembler? Isn't it 'less interesting' that you did not write your own? Could your game have existed without that formative part?

Look at the breadth of genres in that video. When you comparitively look at, say, Project Kunoichi, Jane Jones, and Space Raft, does it really look like the result of a ROM hacking utility used to modify Mystic Searches?...

I'm not pushing people into an elitist camp. People have joined an elitist camp. I don't vilify them, I just think it's a hypocritical and ignorant perspective. I don't need the community extolling its virtues. But I do get plenty of murmurs slighting it from vets I spent five years propping up and celebrating. To those people...that's fine. Like I said, I get it. This is not my first rodeo.  I hear plenty of condescending misconceptions about it.  But it also behooves me to make sure newcomers to this aren't sucked into that strange new tribal rhetoric.

But again, I'm sure that you're going to practice what you're preaching here. I'm sure on all projects from here forward, you will be making full concession list of tools used that aided development?

I'm not going to get sucked into one of your famous, Facebook-esque debates of you versus the world. Like another fellow around here you're always right, and everyone else is wrong, whether that is politics, philosophies, or games. Those of us that push for some critical and reflective thinking are shouted down. There is just no room for genuine discussion when you're out to prove something whether there is truth to it or not. And that is the thing, you say that you helped us all out, and due to that we should therefore be returning the favor in some way (never stating that, but always implying it). That's not how real thinking happens. Support should come based on what we think and work out for ourselves, not as some concession to things you feel you did in our service (which is quite arguably not the case except in your own mind). That same type of thinking is why we should label NESMaker games as such; don't obscure things, let people decide for themselves based on information not misinformation.

There is genuinely nothing left to say if you're just going to shout down anyone who brings up legitimate points. Enjoy preaching to the choir, and railing against the rest  .

Maybe developers see the nesmaker as more of a drag and drop/out of the box/very high-level game creator, whereas the traditional assembly development process uses tools (assembler, music tracker, nesst or whatever for graphics) but they are essentially limitless.

There are also a ton of different options as a developer, right? I know from Music I can use the metal slime engine and type in each note in assembly or familtracker/tone, or weird ppmck/mck.

I think joe sees the nesmaker as Adobe suite for NES assembly, and beau sees it as game maker studio. I feel like the animosity comes in because it's perceived that the end product from nesmaker Took less time to create and therefore is a lesser product even when the quality is very close or exactly equal to the time it took for a developer to learn on a traditional path.

So, is nesmaker a shortcut? We can measure the output ( how many games there have been released) and judge the quality/bugginess. Does it produce a second tier product or is this snobby developers looking to keep the path to Nes development difficult to keep out the riffraff?

My personal opinion is completing any game project of any level of complexity is hard no matter what tool you use. But some folks don't want to learn to program, so nesmaker is an option for them. But it doesn't really make finishing an end product any easier. By far the toughest part of any game project is AFTER you have built the engine and you're making thousands of tiny subjective decisions about the design, art and music. That's where most projects fail. The programming part is relatively straightforward by contrast. Very very time consuming if done from scratch, yes, but still vastly more straightforward than the actual game design.

I think that game makers make things easier is an illusion. You look at Undertale---one of the best games in history as far as I'm concerned---it was made with Game Maker. In my opinion, the level of effort Toby Keith puts into his project vastly exceeds my own efforts, even though I've opted to code things from the ground up. At the end of the day, I just don't care exactly how something was made, but whether something is good. (with the exception that, if I myself am making something, then I care whether I'm feeling joy during the creation process. For me this means programming must be a part of the process)

The illusion that game makers make things easier may be bad for customers who think they are getting out of work. So that is unfortunate, but, it's human nature. But, this fact may account for a large portion of the revenue game maker products earn, unfortunately. I'm not saying that's the fault of the creator of the game maker software, either. It's kind of both. The mere existence of such a product suggests that work and effort has been saved for customers. In fact it doesn't do this, it just changes the avenues down which one must exert similar levels of effort.

My only beef with NESMaker itself is, I am feeling impatient for owning a copy of Mystic Searches that I paid for, and here this second product has already been delivered to thousands of happy customers. I know I can opt for the prequel, but I don't want the prequel. I want what I paid for.  

So you don't want other people to designate these games as NESmaker but you want the creators of the games to designate them as NESmaker? That's my understanding from reading this forum post and this blog post.

Wow...

Yes. I'm out to prove that these users are creating legitimate games. You're out to prove that, in some way, they are not. So...I guess there is no room for genuine discussion when you're out to prove something, using your own metric?....

I don't think you owe me anything for helping "you guys" out. I'm not suggesting "you guys" should be "returning" any favor. Because this isn't an us and them scenario. I am a NES developer. I've put as much into this as anyone else. I am one of the "you" that you're talking about, not some tourist in this passion. And I spent a lot of time and personal investment in bringing awareness to this community. I'm not sure how that can be construed as anything but for the community. That's like saying Memblers building a site to collect NES resources was not in service of the community, or like Brian Parker's Nerdy Nights tutorials were not in service of the community. By what metric is bringing awareness to the fact that this is a thing and all of the community's amazing projects not a valid contribution? What I am saying is that I'm surprised that some of the people that I am supportive of and have supported continuously for five years had zero trouble suddenly dismissing that fact. It feels like juvenile high school nonsense. When I first got involved in the community, with Dain, almost a decade ago, everyone supported everyone and what they were doing. That was awesome. That was one of the reasons I became so invested, and decided to get further involved. Now, we're forming sides? Really? That's demonstrative of this not being the passion that I was introduced to a decade ago. And I don't know how it can be viewed as anything but unfortunate.

You're now demonstrating that this isn't even about the topic at hand. You're making it personal. And I'm not sure why.

Derek - thanks :-) And I understand and appreciate that beef...working on it! Obviously, it's a passion project for me, not a novelty. If it was the former, I could easily spit something out. haha. Your perspective is sort of exactly how I feel too. No one sits back and says that AAA games need to divulge that they used Unreal Engine as their core. They just evaluate the games. If the games are good, the games are good. If they're not, then they're not. Why is NES development some sacred cow that uses a different metric?