NintendoAge http://nintendoage.com/forum/ -Sqooner SNES Contest: April - Super Metroid + Axelay http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=31&threadid=181093 2018-05-03T21:09:32 -05.00 Brock Landers 104
Exploiting every programming error makes the game that much more fun ]]> SNES Contest: April - Super Metroid + Axelay http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=31&threadid=181093 2018-05-03T13:33:48 -05.00 Brock Landers 104 Originally posted by: arch_8ngel
 
Originally posted by: Andy_Bogomil
 
Originally posted by: arch_8ngel
 
Originally posted by: Andy_Bogomil

Yeah, I just stirring the pot for no real reason   I just remember when I played last year I avoided doing pretty much all those 'tricks' as I considered them exploits (mach ball, KQK, blue suit, and even the short chrage as you are somewhat abusing frame rules). Anyway, it's all good and obvisouly, as Brock said, you are the clear winner and that's a really impressive time regardless.
Curious how you would consider the Kraid Quick Kill to be an exploit of any flavor?

It is just shooting him in the face really fast at the very beginning of the fight.

 


Well, I don't know the complete ins and outs of it, but you have to shoot him at a very particular moment and his mouth somewhat freezes in the open position. In my opinion it was never the intention of the developers as Kraid never get the opportunity to stand up and therefore the screen never scrolls over once he is defeated (you have to blindly go into the varia suit room to get the screen to scroll). This tells me that it's not really an intended strat and more so Kraid taking damage with the super missle on a certain frame is what prompts his mouth to stay open longer than intended. It's a little more complex than just blasting Kraid really fast with X number of super missles at the beginning of the fight... the timing is pretty precise. If you simply mash super missle while his mouth is open for the designed duration you will not kill him. I would definitely consider it an exploit for those reasons.

 
OK, I must have misunderstood what was happening in the video when I watched it before (without sound).

 

Yeah, it's a hard catch. Honestly I thought the exact same thing when I first learned the trick... I couldn't figure out how the guy in the video was getting so many super missles off before Kraid closed his mouth. But if you damage him just as he is opening his mouth it 'stalls' the animation and allows you to hit him with one extra missle and kill him. I am not sure why this happens though.. I assume something in the code acts up when he takes damage - I really have no clue. Not only is it a precise timing, but also a precise shot as you only have a few pixels to work with between his snout and raising claw. For me though, it's really the lack of him standing and the way the screen won't scroll that gives it away as an unintended strat. That's why I also think the mach ball was an oversight by the developers. I can't imagine them putting something that subtle in the game that allows you to skip one of the first main bosses of the game. ]]> SNES Contest: April - Super Metroid + Axelay http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=31&threadid=181093 2018-05-03T13:23:48 -05.00 Brock Landers 104 Originally posted by: Andy_Bogomil
 
Originally posted by: arch_8ngel
 
Originally posted by: Andy_Bogomil

Yeah, I just stirring the pot for no real reason   I just remember when I played last year I avoided doing pretty much all those 'tricks' as I considered them exploits (mach ball, KQK, blue suit, and even the short chrage as you are somewhat abusing frame rules). Anyway, it's all good and obvisouly, as Brock said, you are the clear winner and that's a really impressive time regardless.
Curious how you would consider the Kraid Quick Kill to be an exploit of any flavor?

It is just shooting him in the face really fast at the very beginning of the fight.

 


Well, I don't know the complete ins and outs of it, but you have to shoot him at a very particular moment and his mouth somewhat freezes in the open position. In my opinion it was never the intention of the developers as Kraid never get the opportunity to stand up and therefore the screen never scrolls over once he is defeated (you have to blindly go into the varia suit room to get the screen to scroll). This tells me that it's not really an intended strat and more so Kraid taking damage with the super missle on a certain frame is what prompts his mouth to stay open longer than intended. It's a little more complex than just blasting Kraid really fast with X number of super missles at the beginning of the fight... the timing is pretty precise. If you simply mash super missle while his mouth is open for the designed duration you will not kill him. I would definitely consider it an exploit for those reasons.

  OK, I must have misunderstood what was happening in the video when I watched it before (without sound).

  ]]> SNES Contest: April - Super Metroid + Axelay http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=31&threadid=181093 2018-05-03T13:20:31 -05.00 Brock Landers 104 Originally posted by: arch_8ngel
 
Originally posted by: Andy_Bogomil

Yeah, I just stirring the pot for no real reason   I just remember when I played last year I avoided doing pretty much all those 'tricks' as I considered them exploits (mach ball, KQK, blue suit, and even the short chrage as you are somewhat abusing frame rules). Anyway, it's all good and obvisouly, as Brock said, you are the clear winner and that's a really impressive time regardless.
Curious how you would consider the Kraid Quick Kill to be an exploit of any flavor?

It is just shooting him in the face really fast at the very beginning of the fight.

 

Well, I don't know the complete ins and outs of it, but you have to shoot him at a very particular moment and his mouth somewhat freezes in the open position. In my opinion it was never the intention of the developers as Kraid never get the opportunity to stand up and therefore the screen never scrolls over once he is defeated (you have to blindly go into the varia suit room to get the screen to scroll). This tells me that it's not really an intended strat and more so Kraid taking damage with the super missle on a certain frame is what prompts his mouth to stay open longer than intended. It's a little more complex than just blasting Kraid really fast with X number of super missles at the beginning of the fight... the timing is pretty precise. If you simply mash super missle while his mouth is open for the designed duration you will not kill him. I would definitely consider it an exploit for those reasons.

  ]]> SNES Contest: April - Super Metroid + Axelay http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=31&threadid=181093 2018-05-03T12:53:46 -05.00 Brock Landers 104 Originally posted by: Andy_Bogomil

Yeah, I just stirring the pot for no real reason   I just remember when I played last year I avoided doing pretty much all those 'tricks' as I considered them exploits (mach ball, KQK, blue suit, and even the short chrage as you are somewhat abusing frame rules). Anyway, it's all good and obvisouly, as Brock said, you are the clear winner and that's a really impressive time regardless. Curious how you would consider the Kraid Quick Kill to be an exploit of any flavor?

It is just shooting him in the face really fast at the very beginning of the fight.

  ]]> SNES Contest: April - Super Metroid + Axelay http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=31&threadid=181093 2018-05-03T12:50:53 -05.00 Brock Landers 104 SNES Contest: April - Super Metroid + Axelay http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=31&threadid=181093 2018-05-03T11:18:34 -05.00 Brock Landers 104   I just remember when I played last year I avoided doing pretty much all those 'tricks' as I considered them exploits (mach ball, KQK, blue suit, and even the short chrage as you are somewhat abusing frame rules). Anyway, it's all good and obvisouly, as Brock said, you are the clear winner and that's a really impressive time regardless. ]]> SNES Contest: April - Super Metroid + Axelay http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=31&threadid=181093 2018-05-02T21:58:15 -05.00 Brock Landers 104 SNES Contest: April - Super Metroid + Axelay http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=31&threadid=181093 2018-05-02T21:49:40 -05.00 Brock Landers 104 SNES Contest: April - Super Metroid + Axelay http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=31&threadid=181093 2018-05-02T20:27:31 -05.00 Brock Landers 104 Originally posted by: Andy_Bogomil

Great time MPP, but to play devils advocate, how are those not exploits?.. Mainly the skips a kraid quick kill.
You bring up a good question. I based my run on deertiers Any%. Which uses no major glitches. There are defenitely some exploitive stuff in my run. I'm inclined to run it this way and didn't think about adjusting my run for this competition. My bad I guess

First the mockball I use to get to early super missles has been debated if it is a glitch or a game intended mechanic. I'm more into the boat of game intended mechanic but even if it wasn't allowed and instead I killed Spore Spawn to grab it's super missles that would add maybe 1 to 2 minutes of in game time to my total.

I don't believe the Kraid Quick Kill is a glitch. Kraid has 1000 HP and if you can jam missles down his throat fast enough then you can kill him before he stands up.

Getting blue suit after killing Draygoon would be a glitch. Using a shine spark to return through the room before Draygoon only saves about 15 to 30 seconds and isn't a huge time save.

The zebetite skip would be the biggest time save glitch I used. Without the glitch I'd need additional ammo to kill the zebetites then run back to the refill room before taking on mother brain. I normally go into the fight with 20 missles and 10 super missles. If I didn't do the skip I'd go in with 40 missles and 10 supers meaning I'd have to grab 5 more packs of missles. I'd grab the moat missles and speed booster missles which are both free and don't add any in game time. I'd also grab the green brinstar missles in the early supers room. That would add ~10 seconds of in game time. I would also grab the green hill's tube missles. That would add ~5 seconds of in game time. Lastly I would grab the Draygoon missles adding another 10 seconds at most.

The most time lost would be going back to the refill room before mother brain the one time which would add maybe 1 to 2 minutes.

Without doing any of the "glitches" in my run instead of getting a 00:32 I'd be around 00:37 - 00:40 generously. 

I guess I should have adjusted my routing but I just didn't think about it at the time. It's fun to think of how I would have changed things up though. If anyone has an issue with my score counting I'm fine with it being removed. I didn't mean to provide a false score and want to play by the rules. It was habit more than anything.

Thanks for bringing up the question Andy


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