NintendoAge http://nintendoage.com/forum/ -Sqooner Anyone else find the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance a weird custom? http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=188975 2019-10-17T09:08:03 -05.00 coffeewithmrsaturn 75 Originally posted by: Outdoormongoose

So you ranted something you didn't understand because it sounded good?
I had some hope for this conversation at first, but now I can agree with you that this is not going to be able to go anywhere. 
  ]]> Anyone else find the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance a weird custom? http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=188975 2019-10-17T02:54:01 -05.00 coffeewithmrsaturn 75 Originally posted by: coffeewithmrsaturn
 
Originally posted by: Outdoormongoose
 
Originally posted by: coffeewithmrsaturn
 
Originally posted by: Outdoormongoose

We shouldn't tell them to be unified with eachother, fight for liberty and justice for all as that's such a horrible thing for children to learn....(saracasm btw).
 

I appreciate the spirit of your point, but the pledge of allegiance is not the vessel for teaching those things.  Having students repeat something mindlessly for thirty seconds a day to the point that it becomes meaningless (assuming the meaning was ever explained in the first place) doesn't teach them how to be unified with each other.  I think your point is that it's part of a culture of patriotism, unity, etc., but the concept of preaching unity as a reality instead of an ideal rightly falls on deaf ears when so many facets of our current country are obviously unjust and corrupt.  I think that the ideals America was founded on have a lot of merit, but it only takes a few generations before the natural result is that Americans are taught that they are awesome instead of that they can be awesome.  And then you get all the blind 'Murica nationalism we have now (not saying that's you) where people believe and vocalize that America is the greatest country on Earth and ignore the fact that the data contradicts that on so many metrics.

And now I'm hearing the opening scene from season 1 of The Newsroom...I recommend anyone who hasn't seen it looks it up.
 

You jump around a lot so let me try to get them all and you are making a lot of assumptions.

1) Again, it's one brick. The pledge is a brick, one brick of many, that leads to an end goal. If you keep chipping away at the bricks you will be left with nothing. If I tell you to build a wall and I only give you a brick...how are you suppose to know how and what it looks like? You don't even have the skills or materials to build the wall. That is why it is part of the civics you must learn to understand it. Knowledge is gained through time and experience. I doubt many children in, say preschool, know that crossing the road in front of a car will kill them. But, we still tell them not to do it anyway. Am I passing my "do not let children be killed by car" propoganda by telling them something they don't understand? In time, they will learn and develop as we all have with the ability to think for themselves.

2) What is unjust? What is corrupt?

3) You think the foundation of the country has "a lot of merit"? And then you blame the spoiling of future generations and "'murcia" nationalism? What data?

I just...I just don't know where to start with how wrong everything you said is. The blind claims, with no data or philisophic reasoning, you make the the half quotes from Jeff Daniels character to a group of students on some TV show? I've never had someone half quote a TV show at me before as reasoning....

I honestly suggest less TV and more reading. Locke is a good starting point if you haven't already.
 

Let's be fair here.  The Jeff Daniels reference was not reasoning...it was mentioned because it popped into my head due to the direction my post went.

Oh, I love Locke.  He was one of my favorite characters on Lost.
 
So you ranted something you didn't understand because it sounded good?

1) No. Both are concepts young children do not understand and must be taught through repetition. One just happens to be for personal safety and one happens to be about civics. The very civics that tells them to be disobiedent to the government if said government betrays them/becomes tyranical. If they do not learn, even the most basic concepts of who their people are and basic civics, how can they judge anything? What ethical or moral standard do they hold? What baseline do they have? Which, again, is about the Constitution/liberty/justice for all. Liberty, justice, equality, freedom, and disobedience towards tyranny are the very basic tennants of what it is to be an citizen of the United States and the Consitution. If you hold no loyality to the people around you...how can I even trust you? How can I believe anything you say? How can the people around us form a society if everyone views things utterly differently?

The same very system that says you don't have to even say the pledge. You have the right to refuse compelled speech from the government. The very fact you can do that is because of the belief system you already hold because you've already been indoctrinated by your family and friends into the culture long before the school system asked you to say the pledge. Our Constitition is the culmination of countless life times of knowledge into civics and was born in the fires of revolution. Those that knew the follies of other systems and thought they could build a better system. 

If telling children to believe in justice, liberty, and the Consitution is wrong...then I will gladly be wrong in your eyes. Any person is allowed to change their belief system(in any arena) at any point in this country. And the requirement for that is the Constitution...flat out. If the people around you all believe their system is right and with no freedoms granted by said Consitution...congrats you now have real oppression. 

2) You gave no examples and no proof. You just made a blanket statement and expected me to agree with you. You could be taking about corruption/injustice at the local golf store or corruption/justice in the government. You're doing a lot of generic blaming...most of your posts have been blaming someone else. 


I'm pretty much done. This is going no where.  ]]> Anyone else find the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance a weird custom? http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=188975 2019-10-17T01:11:37 -05.00 coffeewithmrsaturn 75 Originally posted by: Outdoormongoose
 
Originally posted by: coffeewithmrsaturn
 
Originally posted by: Outdoormongoose

We shouldn't tell them to be unified with eachother, fight for liberty and justice for all as that's such a horrible thing for children to learn....(saracasm btw).
 

I appreciate the spirit of your point, but the pledge of allegiance is not the vessel for teaching those things.  Having students repeat something mindlessly for thirty seconds a day to the point that it becomes meaningless (assuming the meaning was ever explained in the first place) doesn't teach them how to be unified with each other.  I think your point is that it's part of a culture of patriotism, unity, etc., but the concept of preaching unity as a reality instead of an ideal rightly falls on deaf ears when so many facets of our current country are obviously unjust and corrupt.  I think that the ideals America was founded on have a lot of merit, but it only takes a few generations before the natural result is that Americans are taught that they are awesome instead of that they can be awesome.  And then you get all the blind 'Murica nationalism we have now (not saying that's you) where people believe and vocalize that America is the greatest country on Earth and ignore the fact that the data contradicts that on so many metrics.

And now I'm hearing the opening scene from season 1 of The Newsroom...I recommend anyone who hasn't seen it looks it up.
 

You jump around a lot so let me try to get them all and you are making a lot of assumptions.

1) Again, it's one brick. The pledge is a brick, one brick of many, that leads to an end goal. If you keep chipping away at the bricks you will be left with nothing. If I tell you to build a wall and I only give you a brick...how are you suppose to know how and what it looks like? You don't even have the skills or materials to build the wall. That is why it is part of the civics you must learn to understand it. Knowledge is gained through time and experience. I doubt many children in, say preschool, know that crossing the road in front of a car will kill them. But, we still tell them not to do it anyway. Am I passing my "do not let children be killed by car" propoganda by telling them something they don't understand? In time, they will learn and develop as we all have with the ability to think for themselves.

2) What is unjust? What is corrupt?

3) You think the foundation of the country has "a lot of merit"? And then you blame the spoiling of future generations and "'murcia" nationalism? What data?
Just to briefly respond to points 1 and 2...

1)  I don't think that comparison works because protecting kids from getting hit by a car is for their own safety (serving the self), but pledging allegiance is about loyalty to a nation.  It's an indoctrination about what their belief system should include (I think that's fair to say, whether you find the belief system right or wrong).

2)  Are you just asking me to specify, or do you not believe there is corruption in our country?
  ]]> Anyone else find the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance a weird custom? http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=188975 2019-10-17T01:00:27 -05.00 coffeewithmrsaturn 75 Originally posted by: Outdoormongoose
 
Originally posted by: coffeewithmrsaturn
 
Originally posted by: Outdoormongoose

We shouldn't tell them to be unified with eachother, fight for liberty and justice for all as that's such a horrible thing for children to learn....(saracasm btw).
 

I appreciate the spirit of your point, but the pledge of allegiance is not the vessel for teaching those things.  Having students repeat something mindlessly for thirty seconds a day to the point that it becomes meaningless (assuming the meaning was ever explained in the first place) doesn't teach them how to be unified with each other.  I think your point is that it's part of a culture of patriotism, unity, etc., but the concept of preaching unity as a reality instead of an ideal rightly falls on deaf ears when so many facets of our current country are obviously unjust and corrupt.  I think that the ideals America was founded on have a lot of merit, but it only takes a few generations before the natural result is that Americans are taught that they are awesome instead of that they can be awesome.  And then you get all the blind 'Murica nationalism we have now (not saying that's you) where people believe and vocalize that America is the greatest country on Earth and ignore the fact that the data contradicts that on so many metrics.

And now I'm hearing the opening scene from season 1 of The Newsroom...I recommend anyone who hasn't seen it looks it up.
 

You jump around a lot so let me try to get them all and you are making a lot of assumptions.

1) Again, it's one brick. The pledge is a brick, one brick of many, that leads to an end goal. If you keep chipping away at the bricks you will be left with nothing. If I tell you to build a wall and I only give you a brick...how are you suppose to know how and what it looks like? You don't even have the skills or materials to build the wall. That is why it is part of the civics you must learn to understand it. Knowledge is gained through time and experience. I doubt many children in, say preschool, know that crossing the road in front of a car will kill them. But, we still tell them not to do it anyway. Am I passing my "do not let children be killed by car" propoganda by telling them something they don't understand? In time, they will learn and develop as we all have with the ability to think for themselves.

2) What is unjust? What is corrupt?

3) You think the foundation of the country has "a lot of merit"? And then you blame the spoiling of future generations and "'murcia" nationalism? What data?

I just...I just don't know where to start with how wrong everything you said is. The blind claims, with no data or philisophic reasoning, you make the the half quotes from Jeff Daniels character to a group of students on some TV show? I've never had someone half quote a TV show at me before as reasoning....

I honestly suggest less TV and more reading. Locke is a good starting point if you haven't already.
 
Let's be fair here.  The Jeff Daniels reference was not reasoning...it was mentioned because it popped into my head due to the direction my post went.

Oh, I love Locke.  He was one of my favorite characters on Lost.
  ]]> Anyone else find the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance a weird custom? http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=188975 2019-10-17T00:41:47 -05.00 coffeewithmrsaturn 75 Anyone else find the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance a weird custom? http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=188975 2019-10-17T00:26:38 -05.00 coffeewithmrsaturn 75 Originally posted by: coffeewithmrsaturn
 
Originally posted by: Outdoormongoose

We shouldn't tell them to be unified with eachother, fight for liberty and justice for all as that's such a horrible thing for children to learn....(saracasm btw).
 

I appreciate the spirit of your point, but the pledge of allegiance is not the vessel for teaching those things.  Having students repeat something mindlessly for thirty seconds a day to the point that it becomes meaningless (assuming the meaning was ever explained in the first place) doesn't teach them how to be unified with each other.  I think your point is that it's part of a culture of patriotism, unity, etc., but the concept of preaching unity as a reality instead of an ideal rightly falls on deaf ears when so many facets of our current country are obviously unjust and corrupt.  I think that the ideals America was founded on have a lot of merit, but it only takes a few generations before the natural result is that Americans are taught that they are awesome instead of that they can be awesome.  And then you get all the blind 'Murica nationalism we have now (not saying that's you) where people believe and vocalize that America is the greatest country on Earth and ignore the fact that the data contradicts that on so many metrics.

And now I'm hearing the opening scene from season 1 of The Newsroom...I recommend anyone who hasn't seen it looks it up.
 
You jump around a lot so let me try to get them all and you are making a lot of assumptions.

1) Again, it's one brick. The pledge is a brick, one brick of many, that leads to an end goal. If you keep chipping away at the bricks you will be left with nothing. If I tell you to build a wall and I only give you a brick...how are you suppose to know how and what it looks like? You don't even have the skills or materials to build the wall. That is why it is part of the civics you must learn to understand it. Knowledge is gained through time and experience. I doubt many children in, say preschool, know that crossing the road in front of a car will kill them. But, we still tell them not to do it anyway. Am I passing my "do not let children be killed by car" propoganda by telling them something they don't understand? In time, they will learn and develop as we all have with the ability to think for themselves.

2) What is unjust? What is corrupt?

3) You think the foundation of the country has "a lot of merit"? And then you blame the spoiling of future generations and "'murcia" nationalism? What data?

I just...I just don't know where to start with how wrong everything you said is. The blind claims, with no data or philisophic reasoning, you make the the half quotes from Jeff Daniels character to a group of students on some TV show? I've never had someone half quote a TV show at me before as reasoning....

I honestly suggest less TV and more reading. Locke is a good starting point if you haven't already.



  ]]> Anyone else find the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance a weird custom? http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=188975 2019-10-16T21:00:20 -05.00 coffeewithmrsaturn 75 Originally posted by: coffeewithmrsaturn

Originally posted by: Outdoormongoose

We shouldn't tell them to be unified with eachother, fight for liberty and justice for all as that's such a horrible thing for children to learn....(saracasm btw).
 

I appreciate the spirit of your point, but the pledge of allegiance is not the vessel for teaching those things.  Having students repeat something mindlessly for thirty seconds a day to the point that it becomes meaningless (assuming the meaning was ever explained in the first place) doesn't teach them how to be unified with each other.  I think your point is that it's part of a culture of patriotism, unity, etc., but the concept of preaching unity as a reality instead of an ideal rightly falls on deaf ears when so many facets of our current country are obviously unjust and corrupt.  I think that the ideals America was founded on have a lot of merit, but it only takes a few generations before the natural result is that Americans are taught that they are awesome instead of that they can be awesome.  And then you get all the blind 'Murica nationalism we have now (not saying that's you) where people believe and vocalize that America is the greatest country on Earth and ignore the fact that the data contradicts that on so many metrics.

And now I'm hearing the opening scene from season 1 of The Newsroom...I recommend anyone who hasn't seen it looks it up.
 


It's different when you teach bc you're saying as an adult. I just say it with extreme convinction day in and day out. I could give the pledge on stage draw a tear by the end. I think the amount of blind merica nationalism is WAY smaller than the amount of too cool to care about your country, especially around young ppl. The pledge is good for em. I much prefer the Star spangled banner personally. It's easily the thing the students should hear every morning over the pledge. ]]> Anyone else find the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance a weird custom? http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=188975 2019-10-16T20:50:13 -05.00 coffeewithmrsaturn 75 Originally posted by: Outdoormongoose

We shouldn't tell them to be unified with eachother, fight for liberty and justice for all as that's such a horrible thing for children to learn....(saracasm btw).
 
I appreciate the spirit of your point, but the pledge of allegiance is not the vessel for teaching those things.  Having students repeat something mindlessly for thirty seconds a day to the point that it becomes meaningless (assuming the meaning was ever explained in the first place) doesn't teach them how to be unified with each other.  I think your point is that it's part of a culture of patriotism, unity, etc., but the concept of preaching unity as a reality instead of an ideal rightly falls on deaf ears when so many facets of our current country are obviously unjust and corrupt.  I think that the ideals America was founded on have a lot of merit, but it only takes a few generations before the natural result is that Americans are taught that they are awesome instead of that they can be awesome.  And then you get all the blind 'Murica nationalism we have now (not saying that's you) where people believe and vocalize that America is the greatest country on Earth and ignore the fact that the data contradicts that on so many metrics.

And now I'm hearing the opening scene from season 1 of The Newsroom...I recommend anyone who hasn't seen it looks it up.
  ]]> Anyone else find the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance a weird custom? http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=188975 2019-10-16T20:38:28 -05.00 coffeewithmrsaturn 75 Originally posted by: WhyNotZoidberg
 
Originally posted by: Outdoormongoose


While what he is doing is civil disobedience, he's wrong. While I can not tell you why they think so. I can tell you his whole stance and his entitlement is wrong. I partially covered why previously.

The second statement is assumptive with no basis. You do not know it was the pledge that created "zombies". I could, using that same argument, that colleges have indoctrinated impressionable young minds into causes.

I've covered why several times already how it goes together. 

Are allegories forbidden? Do I have to explain that zombies are by definition mindless and that I can equate that aspect of zombies to people bashing others' relationship to the flag rather than the constitutionality of their actions?

In any case, I understand and share your view on the US Constitution. I don't feel that most citizens understand it as you do and the repression of most forms of dissent in the media, such as the footballguy's story, is anecdotal proof that I can run with. He was criticized for all the disrespect to the flag he was exhibiting (or at the very least this was the starting point for people to start scrutinizing the guy's stance and motives -- you are proof of that), now I ask: where would all his critics' inherent flag-respect stem from? They were taught that somewhere.

I think you are smart enough to understand what I am implying here. You don't have to agree with me, that's fine. But I know you get my point.

  What entitlement are you talking about?

  ]]> Anyone else find the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance a weird custom? http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=188975 2019-10-16T13:55:51 -05.00 coffeewithmrsaturn 75