hi,
i think it would be cool if the experienced devs could post some exercises for noobs in a stickied thread.
could something like this be possible?
maybe i should just do a list like this and ask for it to be stickied?
1(scanty) make a simple demo that goes through all the colour s(more info to come)
2 (kyuusaku) there are some building blocks that I think are EXTREMELY important to learn (actually to *know*!) in order to succeed:
-Number systems (decimal vs hexadecimal vs binary)
-Boolean gates (and, or, not, xor)
-Address space and word size
-Pointers (addresses in memory as opposed to data in memory)
-Stacks
-Roughly how an ALU works (especially the flags)
-Signed numbers ("two's complement")
Although those are decent demo ideas, it'd be too much trouble to do it on a web forum; it'd make more sense to put the tutorial into a*.txt *.doc or *.pdf file & upload it to the necessary sites.
atari2600a wrote:
Although those are decent demo ideas, it'd be too much trouble to do it on a web forum; it'd make more sense to put the tutorial into a*.txt *.doc or *.pdf file & upload it to the necessary sites.
how would updating a post be too much trouble??
more along the lines of placement. It'd be easier for someone to find a tutorial on the front page rather than digging through a forum hidden away in a small link on the front page...
but wouldn't a sticky be the first place you'd look on the first page of "Newbie Help Center"?
i bet there are lots of people who might come here but don't know where to start or what to ask and so they don't say anything. The sticky doesn't have to be my suggestion at all, but surely you don't think a general "Getting Started" sticky would be too much?
I don't think it's a dumb idea at all. The main page hasn't been updated for a hundred years, while the forum is pretty active. I think it would be good since one can ask questions here, while you can't with a document. It would have to be stickied though.
Sounds like a good idea. Kind of like a FAQ. Just another thing to help get people going, if they're interested.
yeah i know a few poeple that would, or would have loved to see something like this.
Curious, who actually maintains(&/or maintained) the site?
site or the forums? looks like Memblers is a forum admin. but his tag says "site admin", so i don't know.
Yeah I started the site back in what must've been '96-'97 or so. Around when NESticle came out. Holy hell, I can't believe it's been that long..!
Obviously I haven't maintained it much for a while. Snuck in a few broken link fixes, but haven't added anything.
Memblers wrote:
Yeah I started the site back in what must've been '96-'97 or so. Around when NESticle came out. Holy hell, I can't believe it's been that long..!
Obviously I haven't maintained it much for a while. Snuck in a few broken link fixes, but haven't added anything.
well then let this sticky be a community effort to help "upgrade" the site a bit.
This site's been here since '97? Holy crap, I guess I had no idea. I suppose I thought it started around 2004. Is that just when the forum started? September 19th 2004 is the earliest join date in the memberlist.
Celius wrote:
This site's been here since '97? Holy crap, I guess I had no idea. I suppose I thought it started around 2004. Is that just when the forum started? September 19th 2004 is the earliest join date in the memberlist.
There was a completely different forum system before this one. They can be found
here.
Oh yeah, I forgot about those.
i donate the usage of the gif89a version of this poster for NESdev's newbie survival guide thread.
(Provided that it is unmodified and no derivatives are made.)
i thought i understood boolean logic until i saw that.
never-obsolete wrote:
i thought i understood boolean logic until i saw that.
i guess what you knew is obsolete
It doesn't matter, the chart is probably too high-level for anything useful to teach to n00bs here. Try finding something w/ just the 6502 instruction set & more along the lines of something like this:
10
01
11
That has to be the craziest diagram I've ever seen.
This is what people need to know:
NOT 0 = 1
NOT 1 = 0
0 AND 0 = 0
0 AND 1 = 0
1 AND 0 = 0
1 AND 1 = 1
0 OR 0 = 0
0 OR 1 = 1
1 OR 0 = 1
1 OR 1 = 1
0 XOR 0 = 0
0 XOR 1 = 1
1 XOR 0 = 1
1 XOR 1 = 0
NAND = AND with inverted (NOT) output
NOR = OR with inverted output
XNOR = XOR with inverted output
If you're going to do digital design, then you should learn boolean algebra, but the above is all that's really necessary for bit masking.
atari2600a wrote:
It doesn't matter, the chart is probably too high-level for anything useful to teach to n00bs here. Try finding something w/ just the 6502 instruction set & more along the lines of something like this:
10
01
11
the chart is simple venn diagrams numbered by their binary truth table with ascii-based engineering notation for the logic gates using just OR/NOT/AND.
it's as low level as its going to get.
i used to teach third graders using the original version of that chart using decals of each entry fused to the vertices of a physical hypercube i built. and they understood it fine. the complete newbies here seem to understand my chart while the self-hyped gurus such as yourself don't understand it at all. obviously you traded intuition for de-education, impo.
de-education btw is the united states public schools common practice of telling students conceptualization they intuitively put together on their own from course work is baseless and worthless wasted time, due to not being useful for the limited set of information in the task at hand, the teachers or the course normally not knowing how to intuitively put such conceptualization together on their own as they were also taught by their own teachers one can only learn by being reliant on the information published by others.
such practices have led to the united states producing most of the stupidest adults in all of the world, having even worse self-reliance than most children in even the most devastated of third world countries.
just like the student witness on the underlying realities based fictional television comedy Boston Legal claimed the other day. Most US Americans do not even understand the simple survival instinct that direction of north-west is obvious when one knows the relative positions of the sun, moon, or stars.
MediaPlague.com :: Boolean Beakers Posters
0, 1, 2 input "Boolean Beakers" overview thumbnail
0 input "Boolean Beakers" poster
1 input "Boolean Beakers" poster
2 input "Boolean Beakers" poster
I grant NESdev permission to use these copyrighted images in their unmodified gif89a condition for the NESdev Newbie survival guide, however no derivative works shall be created.
i must be stupider than a 3rd grader cause as soon as i think it makes sense, something about it proves me wrong.
Laserbeak43 wrote:
i must be stupider than a 3rd grader cause as soon as i think it makes sense, something about it proves me wrong.
you must rely on intuition.
notice the overlapping layout of the 3 posters.
to grok, takes time and patience.
I haven't slept since Tuesday morning/afternoon. Amazing that I am still pretty lucid eh? Consuming raw garlic cloves burns worse than hot pepper seeds, however it isn't a burn that sticks to your tongue.
I finally understand this table!. Each square covers a different logic function, of the 16 possible functions involving two boolean inputs (including ones which don't even examine the inputs). The result is shown in two ways, graphically and as a binary value. The function is also expressed in two ways, as a named binary operator and as an expression involving the common operators ! (NOT), | (OR), & (AND), and ^ (XOR).
Graphically, it's fairly simple. There are two fruits with some overlap, and a background. The left (apple) represents A, the right (orange) B. This forms four regions: neither A nor B (the water background), A only (the non-overlapped part of the apple), B only (the non-overlapped part of the orange), and A and B (the overlapping part). Each of these regions can be either colored or outlined; when colored, the function is true in this case, otherwise it's false.
The four bit binary value is the least obvious. It represents the same information as the image. The bits correspond to the following inputs being true: AB, A, B, (none). So with OR you get 1110 (true as long as either A or B is true), with AND you get 1000 (true only when both A and B are true).
To summarize each function (sorry, challenge not included):
Code:
1 1 0 0 A Inputs
1 0 1 0 B
--------------------
0 0 0 0 FALSE
0 0 0 1 NOR
0 0 1 0 JUST B
0 0 1 1 NOT A
0 1 0 0 JUST A
0 1 0 1 NOT B
0 1 1 0 A XOR B
0 1 1 1 A NAND B
1 0 0 0 A AND B
1 0 0 1 A XNOR B
1 0 1 0 B
1 0 1 1 A IMP B
1 1 0 0 A
1 1 0 1 A LIMP B
1 1 1 0 A OR B
1 1 1 1 TRUE
jargon wrote:
Laserbeak43 wrote:
i must be stupider than a 3rd grader cause as soon as i think it makes sense, something about it proves me wrong.
you must rely on intuition.
notice the overlapping layout of the 3 posters.
to grok, takes time and patience.
I haven't slept since Tuesday morning/afternoon. Amazing that I am still pretty lucid eh? Consuming raw garlic cloves burns worse than hot pepper seeds, however it isn't a burn that sticks to your tongue.
I've tasted raw garlic cloves before. You're right, they burn worse than hot pepper seeds. I was once cooking, and I cut up some garlic. I thought I'd just try a peice of it. It was so sick. No wonder vampires are allergic to it.
By the way, I need to keep looking at your poster you've displayed. I don't even understand it. I don't know if someone who's new to the NESdev scene will.
I also can't seem to understand the poster, and I've been dealing with boolean logic for a long while now... maybe if I tried harder, but I don't want to. =)
I don't think it's very newbie-friendly either.
Here's how I understand it:
- Iff a bin has water in it, the function is true when a is false and b is false.
- Iff a bin has apple in it, the function is true when a is true and b is false.
- Iff a bin has orange in it, the function is true when a is false and b is true.
- Iff a bin has plum in it, the function is true when a is true and b is true.
For example, function "a OR b":
- a false, b false: result false, no water
- a true, b false: result true, apple
- a false, b true: result true, orange
- a true, b true: result true, plum
I think the simple AND/OR/XOR table would do just fine for begginers:
kyuusaku wrote:
0 AND 0 = 0
0 AND 1 = 0
1 AND 0 = 0
1 AND 1 = 1
0 OR 0 = 0
0 OR 1 = 1
1 OR 0 = 1
1 OR 1 = 1
0 XOR 0 = 0
0 XOR 1 = 1
1 XOR 0 = 1
1 XOR 1 = 0
thanks Blarrg. this will be posted as "advanced boolean logic"
and as for the garlic, you guys are woosies
i eat raw garlic cloves at least once a month! it's good for your blood!!! an old trick my grandmother preached to me on a daily basis as a small child.
you guys haven't eaten scotch bonnet peppers if you think garlic is hot. go eat at a jamaican family table one night. you'll know what i'm talking about. that stuff is so hot, it's like a macho contest or something. when i go to my mothers house, i'm like "mmm curry!!!(uh oh i see some scotch bonnet in there, oh s#!t.....).
somehow i feel like the same guy kept voting "no" until the poll was over.
-edit-
poll or no poll, i'll do it if memblers says it's ok.
Laserbeak43 wrote:
thanks Blarrg. this will be posted as "advanced boolean logic"
and as for the garlic, you guys are woosies
i eat raw garlic cloves at least once a month! it's good for your blood!!! an old trick my grandmother preached to me on a daily basis as a small child.
you guys haven't eaten scotch bonnet peppers if you think garlic is hot. go eat at a jamaican family table one night. you'll know what i'm talking about. that stuff is so hot, it's like a macho contest or something. when i go to my mothers house, i'm like "mmm curry!!!(uh oh i see some scotch bonnet in there, oh s#!t.....).
Mexican food is not hot to me at all, in fact i can guzzle a Tobasco sauce bottle straight with no ill outcome minus utter diarrhea and the stuff not tasting good at all to me in the first place.
I grew up with hot peppers etcetera, being third generation Arizonan and all.
The only peppers i find hot are those translucent yellow ones from central America and those bright turquoise ones from south America.
blargg wrote:
I finally understand this table!. Each square covers a different logic function, of the 16 possible functions involving two boolean inputs (including ones which don't even examine the inputs). The result is shown in two ways, graphically and as a binary value. The function is also expressed in two ways, as a named binary operator and as an expression involving the common operators ! (NOT), | (OR), & (AND), and ^ (XOR).
Graphically, it's fairly simple. There are two fruits with some overlap, and a background. The left (apple) represents A, the right (orange) B. This forms four regions: neither A nor B (the water background), A only (the non-overlapped part of the apple), B only (the non-overlapped part of the orange), and A and B (the overlapping part). Each of these regions can be either colored or outlined; when colored, the function is true in this case, otherwise it's false.
The four bit binary value is the least obvious. It represents the same information as the image. The bits correspond to the following inputs being true: AB, A, B, (none). So with OR you get 1110 (true as long as either A or B is true), with AND you get 1000 (true only when both A and B are true).To summarize each function (sorry, challenge not included):
Code:
1 1 0 0 A Inputs
1 0 1 0 B
--------------------
0 0 0 0 FALSE
0 0 0 1 NOR
0 0 1 0 JUST B
0 0 1 1 NOT A
0 1 0 0 JUST A
0 1 0 1 NOT B
0 1 1 0 A XOR B
0 1 1 1 A NAND B
1 0 0 0 A AND B
1 0 0 1 A XNOR B
1 0 1 0 B
1 0 1 1 A IMP B
1 1 0 0 A
1 1 0 1 A LIMP B
1 1 1 0 A OR B
1 1 1 1 TRUE
To summarize each boolean operator (with my tiny corrections and extra info):
Code:
1 1 0 0 Input A
1 0 1 0 Input B
------------------
0 0 0 0 FALSE (aka NULL )
0 0 0 1 A NOR B
0 0 1 0 JUST B (aka A NIMP B) (aka A NLIMP B)
0 0 1 1 NOT A
0 1 0 0 JUST A (aka A NRIMP B)
0 1 0 1 NOT B
0 1 1 0 A XOR B (aka A NEQV B) (aka A EOR B)
0 1 1 1 A NAND B
1 0 0 0 A AND B
1 0 0 1 A XNOR B (aka A EQV B) (aka A ENOR B)
1 0 1 0 B
1 0 1 1 A IMP B (aka A RIMP B)
1 1 0 0 A
1 1 0 1 A LIMP B
1 1 1 0 A OR B
1 1 1 1 TRUE (aka Identity)
Here is the best suited names for the polarization (endian inversal) of the binary truth tables, though not being the most common set of naming convention:
Code:
1 1 0 0 Input A
1 0 1 0 Input B
------------------
0 0 0 0 FALSE
0 0 0 1 A NOR B
0 0 1 0 A NLIMP B
0 0 1 1 NOT A
0 1 0 0 A NRIMP B
0 1 0 1 NOT B
0 1 1 0 A NEQV B
0 1 1 1 A NAND B
1 0 0 0 A AND B
1 0 0 1 A EQV B
1 0 1 0 B
1 0 1 1 A RIMP B
1 1 0 0 A
1 1 0 1 A LIMP B
1 1 1 0 A OR B
1 1 1 1 TRUE
Code:
BOOLEAN YIN/YANG CHART
=======================
1 1 0 0 Input A
1 0 1 0 Input B
=======================
0 0 0 0 NOT ( TRUE )
0 0 0 1 NOT (A OR B)
0 0 1 0 NOT (A LIMP B)
0 0 1 1 NOT (A )
0 1 0 0 NOT (A RIMP B)
0 1 0 1 NOT ( B)
0 1 1 0 NOT (A EQV B)
0 1 1 1 NOT (A AND B)
-----------------------
1 0 0 0 (A AND B)
1 0 0 1 (A EQV B)
1 0 1 0 ( B)
1 0 1 1 (A RIMP B)
1 1 0 0 (A )
1 1 0 1 (A LIMP B)
1 1 1 0 (A OR B)
1 1 1 1 ( TRUE )
=======================
notice with this last table, the endian inversion symmetry is clearly evident. this just happens to be my boolean yin/yang chart.
As follows is Logiclrd's variation of the boolean yin/yang chart:
Code:
1 1 0 0 Input A
1 0 1 0 Input B
---------------------
0 0 0 0 NOT TRUE
0 0 0 1 A NOT OR B
0 0 1 0 A NOT LIMP B
0 0 1 1 A NOT
0 1 0 0 A NOT RIMP B
0 1 0 1 NOT B
0 1 1 0 A NOT EQV B
0 1 1 1 A NOT AND B
- - - - - - - - - - -
1 0 0 0 A AND B
1 0 0 1 A EQV B
1 0 1 0 B
1 0 1 1 A RIMP B
1 1 0 0 A
1 1 0 1 A LIMP B
1 1 1 0 A OR B
1 1 1 1 TRUE
Well I can see the idea doesn't have overwhelming support, but really I think the ones who'd be voting yes are the people that aren't even here yet. Personally, I'd like to see it lead to a flood of newbies. It seemed like when I started this site, I was the only person around with no programming experience trying to do stuff with the NES (I probably almost was).
But I support the idea, just to be clear, Laserbeak can be in charge, I'll edit the thread possibly. tepples is a moderator and a good coder so I'd say edit info into the thread if you want, tepples.
Anyone else just post a reply there, and it could be edited into the main post.
thanks a lot for the support memblers