Trying to make myself a Hard Drivin cart. Starting out making a socketed board. What am I missing here?
hard drivin: mapper 64, 128K prg, 256K chr. seems to run ok in FCEU
using klax as a donor, no 7432 chip on board
hard drivin seems to play ok but the grahpics are half garbled. klax (64K/64K) runs fine, shinobi (128K,128K) runs fine. apparently no released games with 256K chr on mapper 64.
prg:
pin 2 (A16) to mapper pin 2
pin 24 (/OE) to GND.
chr:
pin 30 (A17) to mapper pin 29
mapper pinout:
http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/Teng ... O-1_pinout
On the title splash there, RAMBO-1 is using the IRQ to switch between banks as rendering proceeds.
As far as I can tell, the top 1/3rd is CHR banks 4/5/6/7, where bank 5 contains the the "TM ATARI GAMES CORPORATION ©1990 TENGEN" text.
The next 1/3rd of the screen is CHR banks 0/1/2/3, and this time the corruption corresponds to where it's bank 1.
The final 1/3rd of the screen is CHR banks 9/A/B/C, and the corruption corresponds to where it's bank A.
Between all three, it looks like there's something wrong with the connection of PPU A10 to the RAMBO-1, although it's conceivable it's on the other side (CHR A10).
When PPU A10 is 1, CHR ROM A17 is being forced to 1.
I'm about to put this on a cart too. Just waiting for some parts to arrive.
However, that screen looks very similar to what my emulator shows with certain versions of my RAMBO-1 emulation code. And I haven't been able to figure out why it doesn't work. I wonder if it's using some variant of that chip...
If relevant (may not be, someone may want to check): there was a recent discussion and discovery that the RAMBO-1 mappers' IRQ counter works different than previously thought. It was previously assumed to work like MMC3 (timing-wise), which is not the case.
http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/RAMB ... _operationEdit: Never mind, James was the guy who did the timing investigation work. :-) Thread:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10439
I checked my board over and of what I can see ppu a10 and chr a10 seem fine. part of the traces run under the rambo chip but I can't imagine they would have been damaged during teardown and assembly. I was careful removing the old chips and installing sockets as I have already mangled one board working on this. Also other games I've tried (klax, shinobi) run fine. An issue with the a10 lines would manifest there as well, right? I meant to try the other few games tonight but didn't get around to it.
I'm pretty well out of my depth as far as the technical side here, but I'll try whatever you guys can come up with for potential fixes. Thanks for all the help.
Is there any chance PPU A10 and CHR A17 are somehow connected?
FrankWDoom wrote:
I checked my board over and of what I can see ppu a10 and chr a10 seem fine. part of the traces run under the rambo chip but I can't imagine they would have been damaged during teardown and assembly. I was careful removing the old chips and installing sockets as I have already mangled one board working on this. Also other games I've tried (klax, shinobi) run fine. An issue with the a10 lines would manifest there as well, right? I meant to try the other few games tonight but didn't get around to it.
I'm pretty well out of my depth as far as the technical side here, but I'll try whatever you guys can come up with for potential fixes. Thanks for all the help.
I don't know much about the hardware side; what I can say is that if you emulate "whenever PPU A10 is 1, CHR A17 is forced to 1", you get the emulator screenshot I posted, which looks EXACTLY the same as the screen you posted.
Whatever the source of this defect, it would not cause a problem with Klax or Shinobi because the incorrect data is in the CHR A17 line, which they ignore.
lidnariq wrote:
Is there any chance PPU A10 and CHR A17 are somehow connected?
Physically, not anywhere that is visible to me. It's possible they are tied under rambo chip where I can't see. I'll take the rambo of my mangled board tonight and see if it's manufactured that way.
I was just thinking "use an ohmmeter / continuity tester / diode tester"...
lidnariq wrote:
I was just thinking "use an ohmmeter / continuity tester / diode tester"...
oh yeah, uh, that'd be a lot easier.
so thanks to this advice, I got to poking around and figured it out. The rambo pinouts as detailed on the wiki for mapper 64 is wrong, or more likely swapped with the mapper 158 variant (I do not have alien syndrome handy to verify). chr A17 is actually pin 22 on the rambo chip, and pin 29 is apparently CIRAM A10. I moved my jumper wire for A17 and everything is a-ok now. For anyone who stumbles across this looking for instructions for this or general tengen repro help, my wiring is:
klax board, no 7432 chip
prg pin 2 (a16) -> rambo pin 2
prg pin 24 (/OE) -> GND
chr pin 30 (a17) -> rambo pin 22
as a side note, could someone tell me what the two pieces on the board in the green rectangles are? I think the one is a 0-ohm resistor, but I'm not familiar with the other. Assuming that is a 0-ohm resistor, is that the same thing as running a wire between those two points?
Thank you everyone for your help and input. This was driving me nuts.
FrankWDoom wrote:
as a side note, could someone tell me what the two pieces on the board in the green rectangles are? I think the one is a 0-ohm resistor, but I'm not familiar with the other. Assuming that is a 0-ohm resistor, is that the same thing as running a wire between those two points?
Easy thing first: the thing that looks like a resistor with a single black band is exactly that, a 0-ohm resistor. (black = 0). And yes, it's equivalent to a jumper, but the package can help prevent shorts, especially in boards without a solder resist like this one.
The other one isn't immediately obvious, but it's probably a capacitor, especially if its two sides are Gnd and Vcc.
Anyway, have I updated the wiki page correctly?
By the way, any chance you'd be willing to test which lockout pins are which on the RAMBO-1?
lidnariq wrote:
FrankWDoom wrote:
as a side note, could someone tell me what the two pieces on the board in the green rectangles are? I think the one is a 0-ohm resistor, but I'm not familiar with the other. Assuming that is a 0-ohm resistor, is that the same thing as running a wire between those two points?
Easy thing first: the thing that looks like a resistor with a single black band is exactly that, a 0-ohm resistor. (black = 0). And yes, it's equivalent to a jumper, but the package can help prevent shorts, especially in boards without a solder resist like this one.
The other one isn't immediately obvious, but it's probably a capacitor, especially if its two sides are Gnd and Vcc.
Anyway, have I updated the wiki page correctly?
By the way, any chance you'd be willing to test which lockout pins are which on the RAMBO-1?
thanks.
looks right for #64. can't confirm #158 but I'd say that's a reasonable assumption until someone says otherwise.
for testing, do you just want to know which pin on the rambo goes to which pin on the cart edge?
FrankWDoom wrote:
do you just want to know which pin on the rambo goes to which pin on the cart edge?
Yeah, that's plenty.
lidnariq wrote:
FrankWDoom wrote:
do you just want to know which pin on the rambo goes to which pin on the cart edge?
Yeah, that's plenty.
rambo 15 -> cart 34
rambo 16 -> cart 35
rambo 17 -> cart 70
rambo 18 -> cart 71
also rambo 19 is on the same trace as 20, so it's GND for sure.
Thank you very much!
FrankWDoom wrote:
also rambo 19 is on the same trace as 20, so it's GND for sure.
The
?? in that location is supposed to represent "we don't know whether the pin is an input or a supply pin". Any thoughts on how to make that clearer? I could just add a key, I suppose.
lidnariq wrote:
Thank you very much!
FrankWDoom wrote:
also rambo 19 is on the same trace as 20, so it's GND for sure.
The
?? in that location is supposed to represent "we don't know whether the pin is an input or a supply pin". Any thoughts on how to make that clearer? I could just add a key, I suppose.
no its probably fine. I get mixed up between how things look on the board and what they actually could be.
Hi, I was wondering if you guys had any play issues? I used a rolling thunder cart this board:
http://bootgod.dyndns.org:7777/image.php?ImageID=1657prg pin 2 is already mapped to Rambo pin 2. I connected prg 24 to prg 16 and I did chr 30 to Rambo 22
Everything loads fine and plays fine except for in certain areas it glitches. I have removed the 7432, swapped the top white "resistor?" to match the klax board. I even tossed in a resistor/jumper under the 7432. The problem with not having the 7432 is regardless of anything else it is just slightly glitchy all the time. I had even removed the center yellow piece.
Anyhow I put everything back to as it was minus the top white resistor. The game is minty clean looking but soon as you get to first circle ramp bam you get this screen as well as a few other places.
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The 74'32 is only there to allow the use of a 28-pin 128 KiB mask ROM.
The "resistor" R2 is a 0-ohm jumper. It looks like it (on the right side) connects to PRG A16, so whether it's necessary should be a function of how you did the rework.
Can you post some pics of your board?
You mention the 7432/jumper swap and one other resistor- did you miss one?
This is all set-up original except the top white resistor I moved from R2 to R1 and just never put it back like I did everything else. The white resistor under the 7432 I did not touch. I thought it may need to be moved but the board is actually slightly different when you look at the klax. While I do have a klax I really didn't want to damage the back label to trace the traces and see if that resistor really need to be moved.
What purpose is the long yellow thin thing between the Rambo and PRG? I removed it and seen no change in any set-up. I could remove the 7432 again and jumper underneath but I will be left with a glitchy screen everywhere.
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Now I see what you are referring to w/the resistor under the 7432 I totally missed that it could go higher up. I'll try that.
Yep that fixed it. Just moving that resistor up. Thanks. If I would have seen that I would have tried it lol. I thought the klax board had the resistor to the right instead.
Any chance either of you would be willing to use a multimeter to document what the various jumper locations correspond to?
lidnariq wrote:
Any chance either of you would be willing to use a multimeter to document what the various jumper locations correspond to?
I can put it on my list of to-do's. What specifically are you looking for?
lidnariq wrote:
Any chance either of you would be willing to use a multimeter to document what the various jumper locations correspond to?
You just want continuity correct. I can do that real quick. You want just the whites or the yellows as well?
Yeah, just continuity from each side of the Rx things to what pins on the ROMs/cartridge connector/mapper IC.
I don't care about the yellow things—they should be capacitors (the cylinders) and a resistor array (long "SIP" thing)
Ok had to pop out the resistors for accurate readings.
R1 goes to Rambo 19 and 20 front cart pin 31 all way to right and back cart pin all the way to the right, basically all the grounds.
R2 goes to Rambo 2
The middle section between R1 and R2 goes to prg hole 24.
R3 left side goes to chr 24, right side goes to cart pin 16 if I counted properly, from left to right, that being if you look at the top board, pin on the left between the gap in the pins.
R4 left side goes to chr 24 and right side goes to Rambo 21
Now for that resistor under the 7432 the left side goes to back side cart pin counting 8 from right to left which on my board is pin 22 counting from left to right. Right side goes to chr 22
Of course as you can see in the picture of the klax board they also coincide with 7432 pins 11 for right and 12 for left.
Just curious it doesn't really look like a glitch but when I crash for game over the glass breaks with number and such in it before it goes to game over. Everything else looks fine, do you get the same?
Ok, to interpret:
R1 and R2 select whether PRG ROM pin 24 is PRG A16(R2) or ground(R1), in other words, whether this is a JEDEC 28-pin mask ROM/a 32-pin Nintendo mask ROM (R2) vs an ordinary ROM (R1).
R3 and R4 select whether CHR ROM pin 24 is CHR A16(R4) or PPU /RD(R3), i.e. the same meaning as above)
74'32 populated vs the jumper underneath is the same, controlling whether CHR ROM pin 22 is [PPU A13 OR PPU /RD](ic; above mask ROMs) or PPU A13(jumper; other ROMs)...
last two questions:
1- Where does R6 go? It looks like it would tie something to ground.
2- Where do the solder pads on the reverse next to the label "P28" go? (That should be PRG A17, but...)
R6 left goes to Rambo 15 and right is to ground.
On back side it shows the solder pads for p28 which must be hidden under the rambo chip going to rambo 40 and if jumper would tie in 39 as well.
The front c28 if you jumper it would go to Rambo 22 as is goes to Rambo 40
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Here is the crash thing.
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I think you found a bug: I can (mostly) reproduce your screenshot in an emulator.
I bet the solder pads next to C28/P28 control whether CHR/PRG is a 28-pin ROM (i.e. pin 28 is vcc) or if pin 30 on a 32-pin package is CHR/PRG A17...
It looks like there was a no-wires way to populate the board to use two 256 KiB 'PROMs, just by adjusting R1/2/3/4 and C28/P28.
Yeah, you're a bit more advanced in this than me
While I have learned a lot and come along way I only started learning about anything 7 months ago. Heck back then I didn't even know what an eprom was or for that matter the difference between a resistor and capacitor lol.
It's interesting to learn and the more you know the more it makes sense. I just wonder now that I know all R1 does is ground prg 24 it sounds like that resistor is useless as I lifted pin 24 and grounded to 16. By lifting pin 24 it makes that resistor irreverent correct?
The other thing is since I moved that resistor to R1 which is ground would it even be necessary to lift pin 24? Wouldn't it already be grounded? Sorry I am still a little unfamiliar with the actual role resistors and such play in the whole scheme of things.
icemanxp300 wrote:
It's interesting to learn and the more you know the more it makes sense. I just wonder now that I know all R1 does is ground prg 24 it sounds like that resistor is useless as I lifted pin 24 and grounded to 16. By lifting pin 24 it makes that resistor irreverent correct?
Right. For the ROM to emit data, both pins 22(/CE) and 24(/OE) must be low. But only a single signal comes out from the RAMBO-1. (
nesdevwiki:Tengen RAMBO-1 pinout).
So, for a ROM with two enables, R1 ties pin 24 low so that it emits data when it's supposed to.
For cost saving reasons, JEDEC specified 28-pin 128 KiB ROMs. (28 pins: 2 for power and ground, 8 for data, 17 for address, and one for "emit data"). When using one, the equivalent pin is A16 instead of /OE. So to use this shape of ROM, R2 connects A16 instead of ground.
Since R1/R2 control what pin 24 was connected to ... yes, lifting the ROM pin 24 makes R1/R2 irrelevant. You could probably leave both unpopulated now.