Time for a pet peeve of mine. What significance does the word "real" have in the phrase "real NES"? I'll admit I've used the phrase a few times and perhaps this adds to my annoyance. Compare:
"I just tried the game on my real NES and it does the same thing."
"I just tried the game on my NES and it does the same thing."
I know my peeve began before I even got into emulation, when I noticed the word being used a lot in conversation. Extensive use of it implies that one is usually not talking about the real thing, devaluing the words. Taken to an extreme, the word "real" has to be tacked to everything. "I just tried a real game on my real NES and it really shows a real glitch on my real TV seen through my real eyes."
For the constructive approach, I propose that plain "NES" refer to the Nintendo Entertainment System console, made my Nintendo. "NES architecture" refers to the architecture employed in the NES. "NES clone" refers to consoles made by other companies that roughly match the behavior of the NES. "NES emulator" refers to software implementations of the NES architecture that run on a PC or other platform. "Real NES" becomes redundant and unhelpful.
About the only practical use of "real" is when a claimed behavior of the NES is wrong, and one wants to refer to the actual behavior as opposed to the claimed behavior. "Hmmm, that can't be because it breaks this. What's the real behavior in this case?" In other words, a false claim devalues the words, so one must add qualifications to patch up the broken words.
(And yes, I think about linguistic issues like this a lot, because I think careful use of language can be of great value.)
ADDITION: There's already
FakeNES; someone should make an emulator called RealNES to discourage people from saying "real NES". "Wait, you tried it on RealNES or a real NES?" haha. Oddly, I found two references to "RealNES" on the web, both apparently referring to a real NES, not an emulator.
blargg wrote:
ADDITION: There's already
FakeNES; someone should make an emulator called RealNES to discourage people from saying "real NES". "Wait, you tried it on RealNES or a real NES?" haha. Oddly, I found two references to "RealNES" on the web, both apparently referring to a real NES, not an emulator.
From the hey-i-think-i've-seen-that-before department: Visit
tepples' site and check out the link to a site that hosts software that removes cascading style sheet code from HTML, called DeCSS, the aim of which is to mask references to the
other DeCSS.
In other words-- sounds like a plan. I'm off to go play some real Ghosts N' Goblins.
Twice. (which is really once)
has any one else heard "regular nintendo" to refer to the nes as opposed to "super nintendo" to refer to the snes
Yes, for example at mcvans.com.
I have tended to say "on NES hardware". But let's leave RealNES for
RealArcade.
I guess I say "real NES" so that not a single bit of doubt as to where the software is actually running remains. If you only say "NES", one may think you mean one of the other things (emulator or clone). Many NESdev starters don't know emulators have incompatibilities and many will call their clones "NES", after all it runs NES games.
Well, I think people can say what they feel will pass along the message more acuratelly, and there is no need to create standard expressions, such as "NES clone", but that's just me.
tokumaru wrote:
I guess I say "real NES" so that not a single bit of doubt as to where the software is actually running remains. If you only say "NES", one may think you mean one of the other things (emulator or clone). Many NESdev starters don't know emulators have incompatibilities and many will call their clones "NES", after all it runs NES games.
Great example. The meaning of NES is watered down t "any hardware device which generally works with NES cartridges". Hmmm, I suppose NES could really be taken to refer to the entire
system, which would include the console, games, control pads, etc.
Quote:
Well, I think people can say what they feel will pass along the message more acuratelly, and there is no need to create standard expressions, such as "NES clone", but that's just me.
Certainly; use language however you want, I just brought up an issue that might influence one's approach. The value of a common language is less verbosity and more clarity. For example, if we made more use of the terms "logical address" and "physical address", discussions of mirroring would be simpler. Without precise terms, you'll see people having to resort to phrases each time they refer to something, resulting in less clarity on the reader's part. If you want to see where this actually hurts things, look at people having trouble understanding descriptions of NES operation, where stating something once isn't enough because the words have lost their precise meaning.
baisoku wrote:
I'm off to go play some real Ghosts N' Goblins.
Nevermind that; I'm off to go watch
The Real Ghostbusters.
Ah
I use 'real' all the time. I'm with tokumaru, any Famiclone accepting cartridges will be considered being a NES by many end-users. Or perhaps it's just my unconcious NES pride acting up, having to brag about the venerable toaster every time there's a chance... or maybe not.
A trademark is a designation of origin. "NES" and "Famicom" are abbreviations of Nintendo's trademarks, so without further qualification, they must refer to Nintendo products.
Famicom: 60-pin 8-bit game console produced by Nintendo
NES: 72-pin 8-bit game console produced by Nintendo
Famiclone: Any other 60-pin console compatible (to varying extents) with games for Famicom
what about nes clones then? should we call them cloNES?
dXtr wrote:
what about nes clones then?
I'd extend "famiclone" to cover 72-pin clones as well. But as far as I know, there are vastly more 60-pin famiclones than 72-pin famiclones.
Often, if you ask someone if he played/have some rare game, he'll say it have it even if he technically only have an emulated image of the game that he played under an console emulator.
Typically :
Quote:
- Hey do you have Tales of Phantasia ?
- Yes, I have it, and I finished it.
(I took Tales of Phantasia as a random good example of a rare game running on a Nintendo console).
The man saying the answer could very well mean : "No, I don't have the
real game, but I played it under an emulator and I finished it under emuloation", since the game is rare that will be normal to say you have it without actually having it.
On the other side, if you ask :
Quote:
- Hey, do you have the 'real' Tales of Phantasia
The question doesn't really ask about if your friend played the game or not, but rather if he has the rare cartridge or not, where the world 'real' takes all it's importance. Your friend is supposed to answer "Yes, I have it" or "No, I have only the GBA remake / I have only it emulated". He wouldn't be supposed to answer "Huh ? What's is Tales of Phantasia", as he would in the first question.
So, the same apply on test purposes for developpers.
Asking about games is different, since having the data is virtually equivalent to having the cartridge. Having a NES emulator is quite different than having a NES. These two points can be illustrated by the following:
"Yeah, I have Tales of Phantasia"
"Yeah, I have a NES"
The first might mean the cartridge or merely the data, while only a very clueless person would claim to have a NES when he only had an emulator.
You're absolutely right.
So, saying "real NES" definitly is dull, because just "NES" is enough to say it is real, since nobody will claim his emulators to be a NES. Famiclones, etc... are definitely not NES also, so you're right.
However, this applies to the console, but not to games. Playing a real cart can be opposed as playing on a homemade card or playing under emulation, so here the word 'real' can be meaningfull. For example, I can play a false FF2 card on my real NES.
Quote:
However, this applies to the console, but not to games. Playing a real cart can be opposed as playing on a homemade card or playing under emulation, so here the word 'real' can be meaningfull.
I agree mostly with this. The context will usually make it clear.
"I played TOP on an emulator"
"I played TOP on my SNES"
"I played TOP on my SNES using a flashcart"
If you're playing on hardware, unless your flash/eprom cartridge doesn't work right, there's no difference between that and the official cartridge.
There could be if you hacked the game to run under PAL timing, like I did with FF2 (or hack the game for other purposes).
It could also differ it you use a bad translation patch that works under emulation, but not on the hadware (notice the avoiding of the word "real", we should all start to take that habbit, right ?). I also had to hack FF2 to work under the hardware, because the intro screen of the translation was designed for Nesticle...
A hacked version is not the original. FF2 is different than FF2 modified to work on PAL or translated to English (yes, a translation is still a modification). When you play FF2 English, you're not playing the original game. For one, like you say, many translations involve changes to code which often don't work properly on the NES or even many emulators.
blargg wrote:
A hacked version is not the original. FF2 is different than FF2 modified to work on PAL or translated to English (yes, a translation is still a modification). When you play FF2 English, you're not playing the original game. For one, like you say, many translations involve changes to code which often don't work properly on the NES or even many emulators.
yes this is true.. but I'm almoast 100% sure that people still refer to a translation hacked FF2 as just FF2.
You'll still want to have patched rom of most games that are japaneese only just because you don't undestand a word of japaneese. Some translations break the ROMs, but if you got a decent translation it usually don't, and, it is possible to modify the rom to be fixed. Of couse, burning a cart with this is less "real" than the real cartridge, but more "real" than playing it under an emulator. It is mid-real that way. Thats what I was saying above, play a false game on the real hardware.
Cool! People felt that "real" was an useless word, and now we have complicated things even more! =D
My opinion is that the qualifier REAL is necessary, seeing as many people use emulators instead of a Real NES.
dXtr wrote:
I'm almoast 100% sure that people still refer to a translation hacked FF2 as just FF2.
"FF2" in English refers to a Super NES game, the official translation of FF4-easy.
As for the topic, I tend to say "on hardware", clarifying if necessary whether I'm talking about running something on NES hardware or running something in the PocketNES emulator on GBA hardware.
tepples wrote:
"FF2" in English refers to a Super NES game, the official translation of FF4-easy.
yes, officially.. but depending on in wich context it is said some might say FF2 and refer to FF2j. just b\c something isn't correct that doesn't mean that people wont do it. like i.e. in swedish "they" is spelled "dem" or "de" depending on context.. but both words is pronounced like "dom" and therefore lots of people seems to write "dom" instead of the correct word.
Heh tokumaru. What has come out is that there are two issues with real: it is often redundant, and where it isn't, it's vague. "Real NES" might mean "NES hardware, not an emulator" or "genuine NES, not a clone". My original claim that an unqualified "NES" is sufficient has been refuted to some extent by this, since in some contexts it might refer to the architecture (as in when comparing system capabilities), in which case an emulator is just as valid as hardware. So I'll change my recommendation: use a more descriptive qualifier like "hardware" or "genuine" or "architecture" instead of "real", and only if it's not already clear from the context.
blargg wrote:
"Real NES" might mean "NES hardware, not an emulator" or "genuine NES, not a clone".
For which I would generally say "on hardware" or "on Nintendo brand hardware", respectively.
Quote:
So I'll change my recommendation: use a more descriptive qualifier like "hardware" or "genuine" or "architecture" instead of "real", and only if it's not already clear from the context.
That is, until Nintendo starts licensing its back catalog to RealArcade if the Revolution fails.
FF2 is definitely the NES game on about 90% of cases. Long ago, the FF series was pretty unknown out of japan, so people in states wouldn't care with the numbers. Since FF4 on SNES was released just a year after FF1 on NES in the states, it wouldn't make so strange to call it FF2.
With the advance of the popularity of the series, many people discovered FF2j on NES and FF4 on SNES, that was officially FF2 in the states after the release of FF7, so everyone is calling the games with their real numbers rather than the fake US numbers, exept the few people that had knonw the games before the series become more popular.
Well, if I say "I played this game on my NES", or "I tested this on my NES", it really means the real NES. I cannot see any ambiguation here, so Blargg is right.