I've been using the official Nintendo Famicom-to-NES converter found in some of the old cartridges. But there's a tendency that it doesn't work. Even worse than regular cartridges.
So, what is a good way to play Famicom cartridges on an NES?
Is there a converter that also takes into account the lockout chip? (Cheap converters on eBay don't do it, so you either have to disable your lockout chip or use a top loader NES.)
Or is there a way to make that Nintendo converter more stable?
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Or is there a way to make that Nintendo converter more stable?
Is this instabilitity due to the lockout chip being stingy with the converted signature, or is it firmly "this game works, but not this game", even after proper cleaning?
I guess it has mostly to do with the fact that this is not a cartridge, but a simple connector, so the position in the slot is not as "absolute" as with a cartridge in a real shell. You have to wiggle it around a lot, put it back out and in again, try it again etc. Just like with real cartridges, only worse.
It has nothing to do with dirt. The above part with the Famicom cartridge isn't the culprit anyway. And the below part that you put into the NES is totally clean.
It's not based on any specific Famicom game where one would work better than the other. It's the lower part of the converter.
Allright, so what you essentially need to improve that method is a case that keeps the connection snug and exact. Getting a shell from INL or somewhere else and cutting it in half should at least provide stability in the nes-facing end. Maybe a strap for keeping the cart tight, too?
If it were me, i'd dump the FC carts, put them on repro boards or a memory card loader cart, and let the originals collect dust on the shelf.
I'm using one of those converters myself, stolen from an old Gyromite cart. I've never had any issues with it, not even once. And considering how often games will refuse to start due to not having been cleaned improperly, that's almost impressive.
I'm unsure what the actual problem you're having with it is?
Will this even be stable if I insert and remove cartridges?
I mean, even with a shell, there are three parts instead of one.
Isn't there some converter to buy that handles the lockout chip correctly?
Sumez wrote:
I'm unsure what the actual problem you're having with it is?
I put the game into the NES and I always have to wiggle around a lot until it finally works. And sometimes I don't manage to get it to work at all.
I might try the version with a sawed-off shell.
Oh, you're using it as a loose PCB without a shell? I just sawed over said Gyromite cart and kept the PCB in it. Sorry Gyromite ;_;
I bet people have made custom 3D printed shells for them, too?
I think it sounds more like your issue is with the original carts than the converter, though? Sure they are cleaned well enough?
You can use converters inside one of ROB's game (Gyromite and... ? I don't remember the second title), but they come without a proper case so it's not very great to use them.
Converters with CIC defeaters exists, my bro-in-law had a honeybee converter with such a defeat circuit, made of discrete components.
I'm fairly sures converters that exits through the front door of the frontloader NES and loads two cartridges, one for the CIC and one for the other lines, exist, as I remember seeing one in YouTube videos (was it AVGN ?). But I don't remember seeing any of those in real life.
Possible the reason you have a harder time working is there are twice as many pins that need to be cleaned and making good contact when using pin adapters. Statistically, it's twice as unlikely to have a good connection. On top of that is the issue with front loaders and larger adapters/FCcarts that don't allow you to press down fully.
I made a batch of 60 to 72pin converters that also properly route expansion audio to EXP6, and properly handle mirroring which are features typically lacking from other converters on the market. I wanted to have them listed for sale by now, but have been a bit busy to make updates to the site. Also have some details to work through in regards to a removal string/ribbon. Anyway, if you're interested in trying an early version out I could give you a deal on one.
Yeah any cartridge adapter setup like this is likely to cause contact problems, I had lots of trouble with them for several systems.
Krikzz made an 60 to 72 pin adapter using the same CIC clone as in the NES version of the Everdrive and is also connecting expansion audio, but it's designed to be used inside cart shell and reportedly doesn't work very well using the bare PCB.
There are some adapters that use a CIC stunner, I would never use one of those if I had a NES though.
There was a guy on Famicom World announcing his adapter which is designed to work with the FDS RAM Adapter, but I haven't heard anything more from him.
Link to threadInfiniteneslives I guess your adapters will have a proper shell?
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Infiniteneslives I guess your adapters will have a proper shell?
Well it’s a shell, but idk how proper.. it’s simply a standard case of mine with the top cut off.
Sumez wrote:
I think it sounds more like your issue is with the original carts than the converter, though? Sure they are cleaned well enough?
It's not the original carts. I'm pretty positive about that.
First of all, yes, my cartridges are clean.
Second, even in regular situations, the Famicom is never the point of failure:
Put a game into the NES and you have a good chance that it doesn't work at the first try.
Put a game into the Famicom and it will work immediately.
Same with the converter: The Famicom game at the top needs to put in only once. It's the bottom part that goes into the NES that you have to wiggle around. Sometimes I even have to move it up or down a millimeter with my finger for it to work.
Bregalad wrote:
Converters with CIC defeaters exists, my bro-in-law had a honeybee converter with such a defeat circuit, made of discrete components.
How does it defeat the CIC? If it uses voltage to stun the chip, then no thanks. I would never put anything like that in my NES.
Or does it use the same method as homebrew cartridges, where the code for the lockout chip is included and the NES accepts the game?
Bregalad wrote:
I'm fairly sures converters that exits through the front door of the frontloader NES and loads two cartridges, one for the CIC and one for the other lines, exist, as I remember seeing one in YouTube videos (was it AVGN ?). But I don't remember seeing any of those in real life.
Wasn't that just an unlicensed game where you have to put a licensed game on top?
I know some general converter like this for NTSC and PAL Super Nintendo. But I have never seen one as Famicom-to-NES.
infiniteneslives wrote:
There was a guy on Famicom World announcing his adapter which is designed to work with the FDS RAM Adapter, but I haven't heard anything more from him.
Link to threadHow is this supposed to work? You cannot press it down since it's too big.
@infiniteneslives:
Some questions:
How much do you want to have for one of your converters?
Is everything small enough so that I can push it down in the NES with a complete Famicom cartridge put on top? (The original Nintendo converter is small enough.)
Would you provide the altered shell as well? I don't have the tools to remove the top of a plastic shell in a clean way.
Would it be possible to get the converter with an authentic Nintendo shell? (If you want, I can buy a donor cartrige from eBay and get it sent to you.)
infiniteneslives wrote:
Also have some details to work through in regards to a removal string/ribbon.
Will it work without a removal ribbon anyway? If there's the danger that it gets stuck, then you need to tell me.
(Using the original converter without an NES shell cannot get stuck because the Famicom cartridge and the lower board part both sit very firmly inside their slits of the black plastic part while the contacts to the NES itself are comparatively loose. So pulling the Famicom cartridge out will never get any of these pieces stuck into the NES.)
DRW wrote:
infiniteneslives wrote:
There was a guy on Famicom World announcing his adapter which is designed to work with the FDS RAM Adapter, but I haven't heard anything more from him.
Link to threadHow is this supposed to work? You cannot press it down since it's too big.
Should be quote for Pokun, not me, but you're right in that being a concern. If your connector requires the cart pressed down to make contact that design with likely not work or be problematic at best.
DRW wrote:
@infiniteneslives:
Some questions:
How much do you want to have for one of your converters?
I haven't fully decided, prob somewhere around $15 for bare board, and $20 with case and pull string/ribbon. I have an solderless expansion dongle for front loaders I'm planning to bundle with the adapter as a full kit for $25-30 range.
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Is everything small enough so that I can push it down in the NES with a complete Famicom cartridge put on top? (The original Nintendo converter is small enough.)
For 'standard' famicom carts, the adapter is short enough to press the adapter and FC cart down. For larger famicom carts like MMC5/VRC7 you won't be able to press down. If you remove the metal bar from your front loader the FC cart joint will permit some bending that may allow it to be pressed down fully. I have a different design in mind that would be FDS compatible while also allowing to be pressed down fully. That might be the only viable route for larger FC carts.
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Would you provide the altered shell as well? I don't have the tools to remove the top of a plastic shell in a clean way.
Yes, the sawed off case is included so long as the bare board option isn't choosen.
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Would it be possible to get the converter with an authentic Nintendo shell? (If you want, I can buy a donor cartrige from eBay and get it sent to you.)
Cutting original carts in half is a bit against my religion I'm afraid. Not much that will look pretty when hacked by a table saw, so sacrificing an original cart doesn't make sense to me. There are converters out there which provide much nicer cases than I'm planning, that is probably a better option than mine if you're greatly concerned about looks. I was disappointed how nearly every other adapter on the market doesn't properly handle mirroring, nor support expansion audio. So supporting those features became my primary goal, the sawed off case is simply the only manufacturable solution available to me. Investing thousands in a dedicated injection mold is cost prohibitive.
I do have a 3D printer, but it can't do much better than a sawed off case. Although perhaps a 3d printed part would be good for closing off the open air end of the cart. I'm working on acquiring a laser cutter, but I don't see much for additional options it would allow for this product.
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infiniteneslives wrote:
Also have some details to work through in regards to a removal string/ribbon.
Will it work without a removal ribbon anyway? If there's the danger that it gets stuck, then you need to tell me.
(Using the original converter without an NES shell cannot get stuck because the Famicom cartridge and the lower board part both sit very firmly inside their slits of the black plastic part while the contacts to the NES itself are comparatively loose. So pulling the Famicom cartridge out will never get any of these pieces stuck into the NES.)
Sure it works without the ribbon, provided your 72pin connector is looser than the 60pin connection. Keep in mind the FC connector will be nice and tight at first, but how loose will it get over years of use..? A string/ribbon is a small amount of insurance to pay for things not going as planned and then requiring one to have alien like fingers to remove the adapter, or disassemble their NES to get the adapter back out again.
infiniteneslives wrote:
Cutting original carts in half is a bit against my religion I'm afraid. Not much that will look pretty when hacked by a table saw, so sacrificing an original cart doesn't make sense to me. There are converters out there which provide much nicer cases than I'm planning, that is probably a better option than mine if you're greatly concerned about looks.
It's not about the looks. It's about the fact that your shells tend to be a bit bendable and not as stable as the official shells.
O.k., if you don't want to destroy an original cartridge, how about I get another reproduction shell sent to you? Would this be alright?
infiniteneslives wrote:
I was disappointed how nearly every other adapter on the market doesn't properly handle mirroring
How can mirroring be an issue? Isn't this controlled by the cartridge and therefore the information goes through the pins anyway?
infiniteneslives wrote:
nor support expansion audio.
So, if I played the Famicom version of "Castlevania III" with it, I could hear the extended sound? How is this possible with a regular NES?
infiniteneslives wrote:
A string/ribbon is a small amount of insurance to pay for things not going as planned and then requiring one to have alien like fingers to remove the adapter, or disassemble their NES to get the adapter back out again.
If you put a ribbon on my converter, this would be fine.
DRW wrote:
infiniteneslives wrote:
Cutting original carts in half is a bit against my religion I'm afraid. Not much that will look pretty when hacked by a table saw, so sacrificing an original cart doesn't make sense to me. There are converters out there which provide much nicer cases than I'm planning, that is probably a better option than mine if you're greatly concerned about looks.
It's not about the looks. It's about the fact that your shells tend to be a bit bendable and not as stable as the official shells.
O.k., if you don't want to destroy an original cartridge, how about I get another reproduction shell sent to you? Would this be alright?
Heheh that's interesting... I specifically chose the higher grade ABS because of it's higher impact resistance (and thus flexibility). I've always seen the brittleness (and thus rigidity) of original cases as a flaw because of the high number of second hand carts I own that 'rattle' because some internal piece broke free when dropped etc. I guess one person's feature is always another's flaw depending on perspective..
But yes, if you can get some other replica case in my hands next time I'm sawing up cases I don't mind hacking up some other non-original case. I'm currently down in Texas, and my good table saw is up in Minnesota, I won't be back up there till summer. The table saw I have access to down here is in pretty poor shape and unlikely to produce a preferred result.
If you're concerned about being too flexible I'm not sure I would recommend sawing any case in half as it's structural rigidity will be significantly reduced. I expect any sawed case will easily flex to where the shell will tap up against the famicom female connector. I still think you'd be better off with a proper case like
stoneagegamers. My sawed in half case technique is really only good for keeping the electronics from being exposed, and that's about it...
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infiniteneslives wrote:
I was disappointed how nearly every other adapter on the market doesn't properly handle mirroring
How can mirroring be an issue? Isn't this controlled by the cartridge and therefore the information goes through the pins anyway?
There are two pins the cart controls (outputs to the console) that control mirroring, CIRAM A10, and CIRAM /CE. You're probably thinking of CIRAM A10 which all adapters handle just fine giving control to the famicom cart. However I'm not aware of any adapters that give control of CIRAM /CE to the FC cart. Most mappers/carts utilize the NES mainboard VRAM/CIRAM, so they simply jumper between PPU /A13 and CIRAM /CE. However games/mappers which have 4 screen mirroring, or allow nametables to be located on the cartridge, must disable the NES main board VRAM/CIRAM, and enable it's own nametables on the cartridge. All adapters I've seen jumper between CIRAM /A13 and CIRAM /CE, thus removing the cart's ability to disable NES mainboard CIRAM/VRAM and replace it with it's own on cartridge nametables.
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infiniteneslives wrote:
nor support expansion audio.
So, if I played the Famicom version of "Castlevania III" with it, I could hear the extended sound? How is this possible with a regular NES?
Nintendo provided a means to do this modification through the expansion port which they never utilized. However the problem we now face is a means to make a connection between those pins on the EXP port. The common means to hear cartridge expansion audio on a NES is soldering a resistor onto your NES's mainboard for the "
audio mod". I recently came up with a low cost, manufacturable,
solderless dongle that plugs into the EXP port on the bottom side of front loaders. Chykin (sp? or someone in his place?) appears to still offer his
ENIO expansion boards, but they are comparably expensive, and lack ability to adjust the cartridge volume in relation to the APU which is desirable for some titles. I'm still working on a 3d printed enclosure of sorts that would cover some the bare electrical contacts on my dongle board thingy. I've already ordered the first production batch of expansion boards, but they've yet to arrive.
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infiniteneslives wrote:
A string/ribbon is a small amount of insurance to pay for things not going as planned and then requiring one to have alien like fingers to remove the adapter, or disassemble their NES to get the adapter back out again.
If you put a ribbon on my converter, this would be fine.
I haven't came up with a good way to attach a ribbon aside from hot glue which I'm not a fan of.. The best idea I have currently is to utilize a thin para-cord tied off to each screw post leaving a 'U' shaped loop dangling from the adapter.
infiniteneslives wrote:
I do have a 3D printer, but it can't do much better than a sawed off case. Although perhaps a 3d printed part would be good for closing off the open air end of the cart. I'm working on acquiring a laser cutter, but I don't see much for additional options it would allow for this product.
Resin printers give high quality and cost a couple hundred, laser printers targeting plastic give both high quality and high strength and recently dropped to 5k in price.
infiniteneslives wrote:
DRW wrote:
infiniteneslives wrote:
There was a guy on Famicom World announcing his adapter which is designed to work with the FDS RAM Adapter, but I haven't heard anything more from him.
Link to threadHow is this supposed to work? You cannot press it down since it's too big.
Should be quote for Pokun, not me, but you're right in that being a concern. If your connector requires the cart pressed down to make contact that design with likely not work or be problematic at best.
Yes as stated in the linked thread it can't be pushed down and is indeed problematic. You need perfect pins or a blinking light win, and also it doesn't work very well with RF. The idea was to get the RAM Adapter to work it seems.
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I have a different design in mind that would be FDS compatible while also allowing to be pressed down fully. That might be the only viable route for larger FC carts.
That sounds very interesting. I'm just curious on how you defeat the CIC? Do your adapters work on PAL NES?
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There are two pins the cart controls (outputs to the console) that control mirroring, CIRAM A10, and CIRAM /CE. You're probably thinking of CIRAM A10 which all adapters handle just fine giving control to the famicom cart. However I'm not aware of any adapters that give control of CIRAM /CE to the FC cart. Most mappers/carts utilize the NES mainboard VRAM/CIRAM, so they simply jumper between PPU /A13 and CIRAM /CE. However games/mappers which have 4 screen mirroring, or allow nametables to be located on the cartridge, must disable the NES main board VRAM/CIRAM, and enable it's own nametables on the cartridge. All adapters I've seen jumper between CIRAM /A13 and CIRAM /CE, thus removing the cart's ability to disable NES mainboard CIRAM/VRAM and replace it with it's own on cartridge nametables.
I'm guessing someone thought those pins was unused since not many games used cartridge VRAM for a long time, so they either bridged them or tied them to GND. Then everyone else just copied this design.
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Nintendo provided a means to do this modification through the expansion port which they never utilized. However the problem we now face is a means to make a connection between those pins on the EXP port. The common means to hear cartridge expansion audio on a NES is soldering a resistor onto your NES's mainboard for the "audio mod". I recently came up with a low cost, manufacturable, solderless dongle that plugs into the EXP port on the bottom side of front loaders. Chykin (sp? or someone in his place?) appears to still offer his ENIO expansion boards, but they are comparably expensive, and lack ability to adjust the cartridge volume in relation to the APU which is desirable for some titles. I'm still working on a 3d printed enclosure of sorts that would cover some the bare electrical contacts on my dongle board thingy. I've already ordered the first production batch of expansion boards, but they've yet to arrive.
This also sounds interesting, although I like that the ENIO has a Famicom expansion port and also access to the rest of the NES expansion port. You don't plan to make your own ENIO? And why would you need to adjust the volume? Famicoms can't do that and I never had problems with expansion audio games' volume on my Famicom (the Everdrive however is too silent).
infiniteneslives wrote:
I haven't came up with a good way to attach a ribbon aside from hot glue which I'm not a fan of.
Two (or more) parallel cutouts in the PCB would allow you to weave the ribbon through the various slots...
infiniteneslives wrote:
I'm currently down in Texas, and my good table saw is up in Minnesota, I won't be back up there till summer. The table saw I have access to down here is in pretty poor shape and unlikely to produce a preferred result.
So, are you telling me that you won't be able to create a proper device until summer?
infiniteneslives wrote:
I still think you'd be better off with a proper case like
stoneagegamers.
Will these converters work with an unmodified original NES? If yes, what technique do they use to circumvent the lockout chip?
And what about that mirroring issue?
Also, does anybody know how the HoneyBee converter does that?
I don't have a Honey Bee but it's a traditional adapter so I'm pretty sure it doesn't pass CIRAM /CE to the cartridge, neither the expansion audio pins. Any game that has on-board VRAM for 4-screen won't work.
A seller at eBay says the HoneyBee converter works with a traditional NES. So, unless he's lying, I'm really curious how the converter manages it.
The HoneyBee converter reportedly has a footprint for an authentic CIC as well as
this defeat circuit.
What exactly does this mean? Is this one of the devices that sends pieces of voltage to the chip in an attempt to disable it?
calima wrote:
Resin printers give high quality and cost a couple hundred, laser printers targeting plastic give both high quality and high strength and recently dropped to 5k in price.
I've always seen those types of 3d printers as better prototyping devices, where FDM printers such as the Prusa are proven viable for small scale manufacturing. Sure, the finish of FDM doesn't compare to other more expensive (cost prohibitive) printers; but that isn't necessary to perform a function. The Prusas manufacture themselves after all, and do a quite excellent job doing so IMO.
Pokun wrote:
I'm just curious on how you defeat the CIC? Do your adapters work on PAL NES?
I don't think defeat is the right word, as that implies some sort of stun circuit. My designs 'satisfy' the console CIC in much the same manner as original carts, but utilize a CIC replica with a current day micro controller. This is the same process used by the vast majority, NES carts manufactured by myself and others in the past decade.
The CIC isn't just an issue that adapters must satisfy, every homebrew game and flash cart must satisfy the console's CIC. So I'm a bit confused why this is hanging you guys up. I assume it's because if you buy an adapter that was manufactured over a decade ago, it's likely to have some sort of stun circuit. I would venture to say most adapters manufactured today properly satisfy the CIC with a microcontroller.
And yes, all my designs support all 4 CIC regions by saving last known region to eeprom. Simply tap reset a dozen times or so until it starts working the first time. It will then remember the region that worked. You can change the region of the cart an unlimited amount of times. To my knowledge this is how all microcontroller based CIC soultions solve this issue. Again, this is the same issue/question for homebrew games you purchase, nothing different.
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This also sounds interesting, although I like that the ENIO has a Famicom expansion port and also access to the rest of the NES expansion port. You don't plan to make your own ENIO? And why would you need to adjust the volume? Famicoms can't do that and I never had problems with expansion audio games' volume on my Famicom (the Everdrive however is too silent).
Yes but the ENIO also provides support for external audio. No I'm not going to be making my own ENIO, I have no interest in doing so. You don't need to adjust the volume, but some people enjoy the feature. It has been reported that some people have buzzing issues with their console when the audio resistor is in place. So having the ability to switch it on/off or adjust the volume to near off may necessitate the feature.
lidnariq wrote:
Two (or more) parallel cutouts in the PCB would allow you to weave the ribbon through the various slots...
That's a good idea. However my routing doesn't really provide adaquate room to do so unless the ribbon slots were off center. Photo of my layout is attached. As you can see I've opted to swap the facing direction of the FC cart so it isn't backwards. The PCB has to be so big to properly fit the standard case tabs, so I took the opportunity to flip the FC cart. Having the cart backwards can be confusing for new users, and I just like the feature.
DRW wrote:
So, are you telling me that you won't be able to create a proper device until summer?
To be honest I have no confidence in my ability to create a proper case to you (DRW specifically) under any realistic circumstances. This is why I've recommended other solutions to you a couple times now that I became aware of your case concerns. I naively thought your distaste of my cases wouldn't apply for a device of this nature. In a way I regret offering up my design in this thread, I genuinely thought I might be able to help a fellow nesdever. You asked me if I would saw a case you ship me, and I reluctantly accept so long as it's in a means that convenient for me. I'm not driving up to MN, nor buying a new table saw at my current location to cut one case for you, I'm sorry. If you really want me to saw one of your cases in half, you'll have to accept the time that it's convenient for me. I don't know what else to say, I'm only trying to be helpful.
infiniteneslives wrote:
To be honest I have no confidence in my ability to create a proper case to you (DRW specifically) under any realistic circumstances. This is why I've recommended other solutions to you a couple times now that I became aware of your case concerns.
O.k., we have to make a distinction here:
1. The converter itself.
2. The case.
As far as the converter itself is concerned, I of course would rather buy one from you because yours definitely has the lockout chip mechanism included. (And I don't understand either what's so diffcult for the others to understand here. It's the same mechanism that today's homebrew games use.)
Who knows what methods the other converters use. I would never use a converter or cartridge that tries to stun the lockout chip in my game, so yeah, your converter is the preferred one.
About the casing: If I buy a converter, I of course need a good casing, not a hack job. Or, alternately, I would have to find another way to incorporate your converter into a good case.
Would it be possible to buy some cheap converter from eBay and you put yours into its casing?
infiniteneslives wrote:
I naively thought your distaste of my cases wouldn't apply for a device of this nature.
Those are two different things:
My "distaste" for your cases was already settled by the agreement that I send you another shell. I don't know why you bring this up again.
The actual issue is that you later said you won't be able to use your good saw for a few more months and that you're not sure how you will implement a strap for pulling the converter out of the console.
This is a completely separate issue that needs to be cleared first and it has nothing to do with which shell you use, does it?
DRW wrote:
A seller at eBay says the HoneyBee converter works with a traditional NES. So, unless he's lying, I'm really curious how the converter manages it.
Sellers tend to say things like that, I wouldn't trust it to mean that it works with all games though, unless someone confirms otherwise.
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I don't think defeat is the right word, as that implies some sort of stun circuit. My designs 'satisfy' the console CIC in much the same manner as original carts, but utilize a CIC replica with a current day micro controller. This is the same process used by the vast majority, NES carts manufactured by myself and others in the past decade.
The CIC isn't just an issue that adapters must satisfy, every homebrew game and flash cart must satisfy the console's CIC. So I'm a bit confused why this is hanging you guys up. I assume it's because if you buy an adapter that was manufactured over a decade ago, it's likely to have some sort of stun circuit. I would venture to say most adapters manufactured today properly satisfy the CIC with a microcontroller.
And yes, all my designs support all 4 CIC regions by saving last known region to eeprom. Simply tap reset a dozen times or so until it starts working the first time. It will then remember the region that worked. You can change the region of the cart an unlimited amount of times. To my knowledge this is how all microcontroller based CIC soultions solve this issue. Again, this is the same issue/question for homebrew games you purchase, nothing different.
Yeah that's how the region-free CIC clones in the Powerpak and in the NES version of the Everdrive works.
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Yes but the ENIO also provides support for external audio. No I'm not going to be making my own ENIO, I have no interest in doing so. You don't need to adjust the volume, but some people enjoy the feature. It has been reported that some people have buzzing issues with their console when the audio resistor is in place. So having the ability to switch it on/off or adjust the volume to near off may necessitate the feature.
I see, thanks.
Pokun wrote:
Sellers tend to say things like that, I wouldn't trust it to mean that it works with all games though, unless someone confirms otherwise.
Why can the idea "It works with this game, but not with that one" even be a thing? The lockout chip mechanism would be an issue between the NES and the converter. The actual Famicom cartridge on top wouldn't have anything to do with that, would it?
It's not about the lockout chip, it's about the CIRAM /CE pin as Infiniteneslives explained. Many converters just bridge it with another pin so that you can't remap VRAM to the cartridge. This breaks any game that need those pins for 4-screen or such. MMC5 games, Rad Racer II, Gauntlet etc will not work properly in that case.
Oh, right, that was about the other technical issue, the mirroring etc.
Does Nintendo's "Gyromite" converter do this correctly?
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My "distaste" for your cases was already settled by the agreement that I send you another shell. I don't know why you bring this up again.
I don't see it as settled because the reason you don't like my cases are that they bend. My point is any case will bend significantly when sliced in half.
I the discussion was pretty simple from my perspective..
INL: I have cases but they aren't very proper.
DRW: Can you cut an original case for me instead?
INL: No, cutting original cases it's against my religion.
DRW: It's just that your cases are too bendy, what about if I sent you a non-original case instead?
INL: Sure, cutting another manufactures (non-original) case isn't against my religion. I reluctantly accept provided the timing is convenient for me (next summer). I still don't think you'll like it because it will bend a lot due to lack of structural strength.
DRW: So, are you telling me that you won't be able to create a proper device until summer?
INL: Regardless of when I cut it any sawed case will be bendy, which is what you don't like. I still have no confidence I can create you a proper case.
DRW: I thought we settled the bendy issue, why are you bringing it up.
INL: (this post)
DRW wrote:
Would it be possible to buy some cheap converter from eBay and you put yours into its casing?
I doubt it, but you're free to try I guess..?
Quote:
The actual issue is that you later said you won't be able to use your good saw for a few more months and that you're not sure how you will implement a strap for pulling the converter out of the console.
This is a completely separate issue that needs to be cleared first and it has nothing to do with which shell you use, does it?
I have items on hand to solve this today, I just haven't taken the time to do it. Part of my delay on the converter is I'm still waiting on my expansion port audio boards which I would like to release at the same time.
I thought offering you early access to one of my products might be helpful. I no longer feel like me providing you early access to my product will be a pleasurable experience for you. It won't be early access anyway since I can't saw your case to the best of my ability for several more months. Sorry if I lead you on, I don't think I can help you very much.
If you want a good CIC, and proper case, I still recommend stoneagegamer's converters. I'm pretty sure they have a good CIC solution. I'm fairly certain they don't support 4screen mirroring, but it's unlikely you have famicom carts which would be affected. I'm also fairly certain they don't properly mix expansion audio, nor send audio to EXP6 pin to support the resistor audio mod. These things could all be confirmed by with an image of the PCB top/bottom.
I'm hoping to release everything on my site by January. If you'd like to reach out to me in June have me saw your case in half that's fine. I don't like saying this, but offer any guarantee of satisfaction, and it would be completely at your risk. Me cutting your case would have to be seen as a favor between friends, not a business transaction. Possible I could accidentally completely destroy your one case while attempting to cut it, that's a risk you would have to accept.
infiniteneslives wrote:
No, cutting original cases it's against my religion.
LOL to that!!
By the way, can you do the exact opposite, an adapter to play NES games on Famicom?
I found some near me but they're very expensive!!
Quote:
By the way, can you do the exact opposite, an adapter to play NES games on Famicom?
I found some near me but they're very expensive!!
I've gotten a rather large number of requests for this since I announced my FC->NES project. Safe to say I will make NES->FC time permitting. I have even fewer options for famicom shells that could be turned into enclosures however. I do have famicom cases, but due to their snapping together I don't expect they would work well having the top half sawed off. A pair of acrylic pieces with standoffs and PCB sandwiched between might actually work well enough. The overall form is less demanding for the famicom due to the connector not being buried deep inside the console like the frontloading NES.
Pokun wrote:
It's not about the lockout chip, it's about the CIRAM /CE pin as Infiniteneslives explained. Many converters just bridge it with another pin so that you can't remap VRAM to the cartridge. This breaks any game that need those pins for 4-screen or such. MMC5 games, Rad Racer II, Gauntlet etc will not work properly in that case.
This sound extremely easy to fix by cutting a few traces and adding a few wires, though.
Yes that's what you have to do with most adapters. The expansion audio also needs a mod. If someone makes a newly produced adapter that passes all pins properly and also has a region free CIC clone, I'd rather take that though.
Bregalad wrote:
You can use converters inside one of ROB's game (Gyromite and... ? I don't remember the second title), but they come without a proper case so it's not very great to use them.
Stackup, that game become very rare in North America because, unlike Gyromite, there's a 100% chance it contains a Famicom cartridge board with adapter, and people got overboard and hunted it almost to extinction. This is the reason why cannibalizing is bad, it's better to use newly produced adapters.
Gyromite is the better game of the two though, but that's beside the point.
Has this been brought up on this discussion? I thought it was interesting. It doesn't have a 60 pin connector in itself, but it claims to be region free, so any 72-60 adapter should be enough to go along with it.
Blinking Light Win:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lJeRoIMPno
The BLW is "region free" because it fits the PAL NES board just as well as the North American NES. It doesn't have anything to do with the CIC.
...though disabling the CIC is pretty trivial while you're already in there installing the BLW.
Edit: I was wrong about this, it actually even has an onboard CIC.
One thing it does help with a little is that you get rid of that stupid pop-down caddy when you install it, so there's more space for a Famicom cartridge + adapter to fit inside. I found that silver bar across the top didn't leave enough room to fit many Famicom carts with the gyromite adapter; either I had to open the cartridge and use the bare board, or just take apart my NES to remove the caddy when I wanted to use it.
rainwarrior wrote:
The BLW is "region free" because it fits the PAL NES board just as well as the North American NES. It doesn't have anything to do with the CIC.
It totally says in the video that it turns the NES into a region free system. Is the guy in the video confused? If it's untrue it may lead people to making an uninformed purchase.
Oh, you know what, I'm wrong! I didn't know it even had that. Okay, so it has its own CIC clone onboard.
Heh I didn't know that either. So installing a BLW makes it region free as far as 72 pin goes. That's better than disabling the CIC (for the few games that requires it). No soldering required either, I'll consider this if I get a NES again one day.
@infiniteneslives:
I bought that converter from Stoneagegamer and guess what: It's a piece of crap.
When I try to use it, the title screen is shown for a moment, then the NES goes into perpetual reset mode, i.e. exactly the thing that it does when it doesn't detect a correct CIC.
Since the converter has the Stoneagegamer logo on the front, I thought this is a converter by the homebrew community. But when I opened up the case, I found out that this is just a stupid Honeybee converter.
Also, there's no chip whatsoever in the place where the CIC would be located.
So, yeah, it might be good enough for a top loader or some clone console. But the Stoneagegamer converter will not work with an unmodified front loader NES. It's just a cheap Chinese product.
So, I'm still looking for a proper Famicom-to-NES converter that can be used with a regular NTSC NES.
Isn't there anything that can be ordered that isn't shitty Chinese crap?
Today, you can buy bare NES boards and complete homebrew games that all have a proper CIC inside, but there's no Famicom converter that uses this technique yet?
This one doesn't have a shell. Which is the reason why I don't want to use the original Nintendo converter anymore. Because it fails more than it works thanks to putting the bare bones board into the slot.
Does anybody know what lockout circumvention method the converter by Krikzz uses?
I wrote them two messages, but their answer was basically:
"We don't know. The converter was not created with the intention to play Famicom games on an NES, but to use the Famicom version of the Everdrive in NES consoles."
So, obviously, the guy answering the messages is not a technician, otherwise he should know that it doesn't matter what cartridge you play on this converter. The lockout defeat mechanism still has to come from the converter itself.
The 8-SOP on the board is pretty clearly an AVRciczz, i.e. a clone not a defeater.
Yeah Krikzz uses his own region free CIC clone (the NES CIC is quite trivial as I understands it) and if it works for the Everdrive it should work with any game I think. IIRC it's region free and remembers last region just like the Powerpak and Infiniteneslives ones. But Krikzz' converter isn't recommended to be used as a general converter, it's made to fit inside a shell with the Everdrive.
DRW wrote:
@infiniteneslives:
I bought that converter from Stoneagegamer and guess what: It's a piece of crap.
When I try to use it, the title screen is shown for a moment, then the NES goes into perpetual reset mode, i.e. exactly the thing that it does when it doesn't detect a correct CIC.
Since the converter has the Stoneagegamer logo on the front, I thought this is a converter by the homebrew community. But when I opened up the case, I found out that this is just a stupid Honeybee converter.
Also, there's no chip whatsoever in the place where the CIC would be located.
So, yeah, it might be good enough for a top loader or some clone console. But the Stoneagegamer converter will not work with an unmodified front loader NES. It's just a cheap Chinese product.
Well if it doesn't have a CIC it can't be used. You must install a CIC clone.
Pokun wrote:
But Krikzz' converter isn't recommended to be used as a general converter, it's made to fit inside a shell with the Everdrive.
Is there a reason against using it as a general converter?
Pokun wrote:
Well if it doesn't have a CIC it can't be used. You must install a CIC clone.
They're giving me a refund.
DRW wrote:
This one doesn't have a shell. Which is the reason why I don't want to use the original Nintendo converter anymore.
Later:
DRW wrote:
Pokun wrote:
But Krikzz' converter isn't recommended to be used as a general converter, it's made to fit inside a shell with the Everdrive.
Is there a reason against using it as a general converter?
The fact that you want a separate shell for it, and the cost of making an injection mold to produce such a shell. Without a separate shell, it's a replacement for NES-JOINT.
DRW wrote:
@infiniteneslives:
I bought that converter from Stoneagegamer and guess what: It's a piece of crap.
When I try to use it, the title screen is shown for a moment, then the NES goes into perpetual reset mode, i.e. exactly the thing that it does when it doesn't detect a correct CIC.
Since the converter has the Stoneagegamer logo on the front, I thought this is a converter by the homebrew community. But when I opened up the case, I found out that this is just a stupid Honeybee converter.
Also, there's no chip whatsoever in the place where the CIC would be located.
So, yeah, it might be good enough for a top loader or some clone console. But the Stoneagegamer converter will not work with an unmodified front loader NES. It's just a cheap Chinese product.
Wow that's disappointing.. Although I guess if we would have actually done some reading this would have been apparent. (unless they just happened to add that note to the site)
http://www.stoneagegamer.com/famicom-to-nes-converter.htmlStoneagegamer wrote:
**NES Front Loader must have CiC chip disabled
I don't get why krikzz can't be used for general conversion aside from it's lack of case. Appears that krikzz's is the standard NES PCB outline that should fit in most aftermarket cases, but would still require to be cut in half.
Doesn't look as though Krikzz contains any audio mixing circuitry though. But it does appear that he properly routed CIRAM /CE control to the cartridge.
tepples wrote:
The fact that you want a separate shell for it, and the cost of making an injection mold to produce such a shell. Without a separate shell, it's a replacement for NES-JOINT.
Would it work if I simply take one of those cheap Chinese converters and use the case of that one?
infiniteneslives wrote:
Wow that's disappointing.. Although I guess if we would have actually done some reading this would have been apparent. (unless they just happened to add that note to the site)
http://www.stoneagegamer.com/famicom-to-nes-converter.htmlStoneagegamer wrote:
**NES Front Loader must have CiC chip disabled
Yeah, that was added right after my complaint.
They claim that they tested it on a front loader NES, but it
cannot work. The left side where the lockout chip would be located is empty. So, I assume their NES already had the chip disabled. After I told this to him, he wasn't sure himself anymore.
I mean, on the inside, it's a Honeybee converter. Does any Honeybee converter have a lockout chip or any other defeat mechanism?
DRW wrote:
tepples wrote:
The fact that you want a separate shell for it, and the cost of making an injection mold to produce such a shell. Without a separate shell, it's a replacement for NES-JOINT.
Would it work if I simply take one of those cheap Chinese converters and use the case of that one?
It's unlikely that the PCB outline of the cheap chinese converter case matches the "standard" NES PCB outline. But it's possible, your guess is as good as ours.
DRW wrote:
Oh, right, that was about the other technical issue, the mirroring etc.
Does Nintendo's "Gyromite" converter do this correctly?
It seems that it does :
http://www.vintagecomputing.com/wp-cont ... o7_big.jpgNo bridged pins there, and the 37-72 pin side is the side to look at when identifying the bridging between those two signals.
infiniteneslives wrote:
I don't get why krikzz can't be used for general conversion aside from it's lack of case. Appears that krikzz's is the standard NES PCB outline that should fit in most aftermarket cases, but would still require to be cut in half.
Doesn't look as though Krikzz contains any audio mixing circuitry though. But it does appear that he properly routed CIRAM /CE control to the cartridge.
The guy that bought a bunch of them (a post on Famicom World) and didn't recommend them was trying to use them in bare PCB form. If you have a shell and ribbon I bet it's not worse than the Gyromite one or any other shell-less converter. Krikzz made them so that people wouldn't have to cannibalize Gyromite before the 72 pin version of the Everdrive was complete. It was designed to fit inside a standard NES shell like the Gyromite adapter.
I don't get why the converter needs to have audio mixing circuitry in the first place? I thought its use is just to convert the pin layout. Isn't audio mixing done inside the game cartridges anyway?
Pokun wrote:
I don't get why the converter needs to have audio mixing circuitry in the first place? I thought its use is just to convert the pin layout. Isn't audio mixing done inside the game cartridges anyway?
On the Famicom the is fed through the cartridge in a loop, one pin in, one pin out.
On the NES you can't interrupt the audio path like that, you can only connect to it in the middle via some bridge to that expansion pin, so you can only "mix" with it. The mixing stuff already present in the Famicom cartridge doesn't function the same in this circumstance, you are substituting for it with a passive mix.
This is one reason why I recommend using a potentiometer for the common "NES audio expansion mod", rather than a fixed 47k resistor. Different carts will need a different resistance to sound balanced as they were, there's no way to use its original on-cart mixing hardware to do this automatically.
Ah I see, thanks that explains everything.
DRW wrote:
So, yeah, it might be good enough for a top loader or some clone console. But the Stoneagegamer converter will not work with an unmodified front loader NES. It's just a cheap Chinese product.
I'm pretty sure this goes for almost every adapter that doesn't use donor carts.
I know I shouldn't ask this, but why don't you just mod your NES? It takes seconds and no technical knowledge. It's a wonder to me that region protected NES'es still exist.
I got this NES almost brand new. And it still looks very new. I will not open it up to alter anything in it. I like to keep it as it is.
Well as the CIC is trivial to make with a microcontroller and it's required by some games I don't see why you would bother disabling it.
It's a given fact. I don't fiddle around with my original console. That's not up for discussion.
Fiddling around with external stuff, like those converters, is fine, but my console stays in its original form.
Considered getting an AV Famicom then? You get all the bonuses of a top loader, no region protection, AND built-in composite output (the best you can get from an NES without "fiddling around"). You'd just need a converter the other way around to play your NES titles on it.
Personally I'm a huge fan of my US top loader, I'd never go back to using the front loader. Such a huge and clunky design, a crappy connector, and generally such a hassle to use.
No, I don't want to aquire a whole new console just to play "F-1 Race".
All I want is a converter in a shell for the console that I've been using for years now.
If I don't find one, I will somehow saw a shell in half and use my authentic Gyromite converter, but if I can find an all-in-one piece (or a converter with a CIC and without a shell that fits into another non-CIC-converter's shell), I will prefer this one.
DRW wrote:
It's a given fact. I don't fiddle around with my original console. That's not up for discussion.
Fiddling around with external stuff, like those converters, is fine, but my console stays in its original form.
I was answering to Sumez. Why disable the CIC in the console and decrease compatibility when the CIC is trivial to make in an adapter.
Pokun wrote:
Why disable the CIC in the console and decrease compatibility when the CIC is trivial to make in an adapter.
How does disabling the CIC decrease compatibility? Which game won't play without it?
Some famous competition cartridge I think.
Sumez wrote:
How does disabling the CIC decrease compatibility? Which game won't play without it?
As far as I know, only the extremely rare Nintendo World Championship cart relies on the CIC. However, on the SNES, many games with extra chips requires a CIC.
Quote:
Well as the CIC is trivial to make with a microcontroller
It might be relatively simple, but definitely NOT trivial - as anything microcontroller related is very unlikely to be trivial, period. You should look it up before talking. Soldering a wire or cutting a track is trivial. Picking a microcontroller, programming it, be sure that the frequency is OK, and the pinout too, etc... is far from trivial.
Bregalad wrote:
As far as I know, only the extremely rare Nintendo World Championship cart relies on the CIC.
Haha, okay. I feel that's a very vague argument to not mod your NES then
Unless you just happen to have a NWC cartridge lying around and really want to play it for some reason.
Sumez wrote:
How does disabling the CIC decrease compatibility? Which game won't play without it?
The real Nintendo World Championships 1990 cartridges require the CIC reset pin. However, the "requirement" may be just to restart the timer upon pressing reset. A single play of the cartridge should work OK from what I have read, so you can do a power cycle to obtain the same effect as a reset. The far rarer Nintendo Campus Challenge 1991 cartridge may also require the CIC reset pin.
Similarly, the PAL Super Mario Bros. + Tetris + Nintendo World Cup requires the CIC reset pin to reset to the game select menu. I believe that if the CIC reset is not present, you can only reset to the game. Again, a power cycle will have the same effect on a CIC-less system.
The Blinking Light Win includes a CIClone to interact with the console's CIC but still passes the reset through to the cartridges, so these carts work properly.
Sumez wrote:
Haha, okay. I feel that's a very vague argument to not mod your NES then
Unless you just happen to have a NWC cartridge lying around and really want to play it for some reason.
Well, he said N times he does not want to cut the pin 4 of his CIC, and wants to keep this system as it was originally sold. This is enough for a reason, he does not need any further reason.
I can completely respect that, I was talking about the other argument, that it "decreases compatibility". I honestly don't think that should factor into anyone's descisions. I normally only use my top loader, which doesn't even have a CIC. I'd assume it has the same, heh, "problem".
If you have a PAL NES especially, you definitely don't want a CIC. Nintendo were annoying enough to split Europe into two different CIC regions, which means you'd most likely end up with at least three different regions of cartridges within a few days of collecting NES games in Europe
Sumez wrote:
If you have a PAL NES especially, you definitely don't want a CIC. Nintendo were annoying enough to split Europe into two different CIC regions, which means you'd most likely end up with at least three different regions of cartridges within a few days of collecting NES games in Europe
Well I've yet to have seen any PAL-A game in real-life, period. Games seems to remain mostly domestic.
Sumez wrote:
I can completely respect that, I was talking about the other argument, that it "decreases compatibility".
LOL the entire
intended function of the CIC is to decrease compatibility.
Anyhow, sure if you're uncomfortable with "jailbreaking" your NES with a little snip, there's the other way to get around the problem, just more expensive and less convenient.
I've carried out 5 snips so far. Seeing the european market got split into two compability regions which now is in the way for 2nd hand trade and all the ntsc carts that are flooding europe, i expect i'll get a couple more house calls. Uncut/undesoldered/unpatched PAL neses might someday become a rarity.
Are games released in Australia PAL-A?
(I'm thinking specifically of Ufouria).
AVRciczz says region ";3197 - UK/Italy/Australia "
Bregalad wrote:
Well I've yet to have seen any PAL-A game in real-life, period. Games seems to remain mostly domestic.
PAL A is UK, it's pretty common.
I couldn't tell you how many I have though... since I don't have to worry about that, I don't pay attention
Nowadays I'm always targeting NTSC releases (either US or Jap) though, as long as it's feasible without too steep custom fees.
SCN games fetch ridiculous prices here, which means NOE games are flooding this region to compensate. Games from uk and italy aren't as common here as the NOE ones have become, due to the CIC, but they can sometimes be cheaper to get.
A question for everybody who uses the original Famicom-to-NES converter by Nintendo by putting it into a shell where the top was sawed off:
How exactly do you use this?
This is how it's put into a cartridge:
Attachment:
Converter.jpg [ 89.87 KiB | Viewed 1534 times ]
So, how do you put a Famicom game on top?
This only works if you turn around the converter by 180 degrees because of the attachments on the side or if the Famicom game doesn't have a shell by itself, as in the image.
Most converters require the famicom front label to be facing down in the NES cartridge tray as you've mentioned. To keep the famicom label up you need a converter which 'flips' all the connections like I did with my design.
I didn't realize the tabs on the side of the gyromite connector would need sawed off as well as the famicom shell would prevent seating of the cart as you've also pointed out..
I imagine people who use it have to hack those tabs off, but then consequently can't easily attach it to an original case that's sawed in half. So they just use the bare adapter without case? Or they take the famicom board out of the case which is rather difficult to do without breaking the case tabs..?
Instead of sawing off the tabs you can just take the black double-sided pass-through and turn it upside down. Works exactly the same the other way around and a cartridge will fit on it fine.
Oh right, but then it won't easily mount in an original case sawed in half.
I think the answer to your question DRW is people do what rainwarrior mentioned and then don't use a case at all.
Has anyone tried one of these yet?
http://www.muramasaentertainment.com/index.php/accessories/extended-famicom-converter.htmlhttp://www.muramasaentertainment.com/media/public/ext_converter_2.pnghttp://www.muramasaentertainment.com/media/public/ext_converter_3.pnghere is another model:
http://www.muramasaentertainment.com/index.php/new-game-components/nes-game-components/nes-pcbs/low-profile-famicom-to-nes-converter.htmlinfiniteneslives wrote:
Yes but the ENIO also provides support for external audio. No I'm not going to be making my own ENIO, I have no interest in doing so. You don't need to adjust the volume, but some people enjoy the feature. It has been reported that some people have buzzing issues with their console when the audio resistor is in place. So having the ability to switch it on/off or adjust the volume to near off may necessitate the feature.
I hope that allowing volume adjustment for expansion audio doesn't become the standard. As a composer, that's potentially bad because it means that when using the NES and exp audio together, it's going to sound different on different systems. The various Famicom revisions output at varying levels, so I'm guessing that's why people want to adjust it. I don't know if the NES will be 100% consistent or not. But I think it's worth noting that taking on this feature means the NES would inherit one of the problems of Famicom expansion audio..
Also, was said already, but I can confirm that the audio output of the Famicom Everdrive is nearly inaudible and basically useless on the Famicom I have, so hopefully nobody is using that as gauge of anything.
infiniteneslives wrote:
Most converters require the famicom front label to be facing down in the NES cartridge tray as you've mentioned. To keep the famicom label up you need a converter which 'flips' all the connections like I did with my design.
To be honest, I couldn't care less that the cartridge needs to face down. That's the smallest problem.
infiniteneslives wrote:
I didn't realize the tabs on the side of the gyromite connector would need sawed off as well as the famicom shell would prevent seating of the cart as you've also pointed out..
After further inspection, I came to the conclusion that one should maybe saw the cartridge shell at the position where the converter and the lower board meet and then use the converter upside down. This way, the plastic piece is not attached to the shell with screws, but it might still work.
Memblers wrote:
How is anybody supposed to put this into his NES? The NES won't start if the cartridge simply hangs out.
This one looks totally useless for an unmodified front loader.
Memblers wrote:
The black plastic piece is built as high as the board, i.e. the sides of the plastic piece don't have free space. Which means you cannot put a Famicom cartridge on top, you have to remove it from its shelf and use the Famicom board directly.
An issue that could have easily been fixed had they removed the upper edges of the board.
What were they thinking with this kind of design?
DRW wrote:
How is anybody supposed to put this into his NES? The NES won't start if the cartridge simply hangs out.
This one looks totally useless for an unmodified front loader.
It will if the board is thicker, as it is for a Game Genie.
And this will not wear out anything?
As I said earlier, the seller said that the adapter pretty much requires a blinking light win and it also has problems if RF is used.
Memblers wrote:
infiniteneslives wrote:
Yes but the ENIO also provides support for external audio. No I'm not going to be making my own ENIO, I have no interest in doing so. You don't need to adjust the volume, but some people enjoy the feature. It has been reported that some people have buzzing issues with their console when the audio resistor is in place. So having the ability to switch it on/off or adjust the volume to near off may necessitate the feature.
I hope that allowing volume adjustment for expansion audio doesn't become the standard. As a composer, that's potentially bad because it means that when using the NES and exp audio together, it's going to sound different on different systems. The various Famicom revisions output at varying levels, so I'm guessing that's why people want to adjust it. I don't know if the NES will be 100% consistent or not. But I think it's worth noting that taking on this feature means the NES would inherit one of the problems of Famicom expansion audio..
Also, was said already, but I can confirm that the audio output of the Famicom Everdrive is nearly inaudible and basically useless on the Famicom I have, so hopefully nobody is using that as gauge of anything.
The differences isn't that big between Famicoms. I think it's mainly the AV Famicom that has low volume, and since it were released after the majority of the expansion audio games was made, games where probably made with the older Famicoms in mind. If I understand it correctly the potentiometer is not for simulating different Famicom systems, but for simulating different audio expansion cartridges since they may differ, and since the mixing has to be done in the console instead of in the cartridge in the NES' case.
Yeah the Everdrive is pretty much useless for anything that uses expansion audio. The games that are "supported" are effectively unplayable on the Everdrive unless you play without sound.
Memblers wrote:
I hope that allowing volume adjustment for expansion audio doesn't become the standard.
All my audio expansion dongles will have a fixed 47k ohm resistor as that's about as 'standard' as we'll ever get, the adjustable pot is the optional feature enabled with a toggle switch.
Pokun wrote:
AIf I understand it correctly the potentiometer is not for simulating different Famicom systems, but for simulating different audio expansion cartridges since they may differ, and since the mixing has to be done in the console instead of in the cartridge in the NES' case.
Yeah the Everdrive is pretty much useless for anything that uses expansion audio. The games that are "supported" are effectively unplayable on the Everdrive unless you play without sound.
The 47k resistor is specifically for the PowerPak's simulated expansion sound, and subsequently the Everdrive was made to the same standard.
The emulation of expansion sound on either of those flashcarts should be designed with the 47k resistor mix in mind, so it theoretically doesn't need to be adjusted for different expansions... but in practice the volume levels of these emulations doesn't really match the originals all that well anyway, and I think a pot helps compensate for this.
If you're planning to put Famicom carts in your NES, the 47k resistor is just not the right mix for it no matter what you do. They're all mixing on their own terms, and you're not going to get a good balance from anything unless you can make it adjustable instead.
I remember reading somewhere that even NES boards made for the MMC5 have footprints for mixing resistors. If those are populated, what NES-side resistor is appropriate?
Pokun wrote:
As I said earlier, the seller said that the adapter pretty much requires a blinking light win and it also has problems if RF is used.
Memblers wrote:
infiniteneslives wrote:
Yes but the ENIO also provides support for external audio. No I'm not going to be making my own ENIO, I have no interest in doing so. You don't need to adjust the volume, but some people enjoy the feature. It has been reported that some people have buzzing issues with their console when the audio resistor is in place. So having the ability to switch it on/off or adjust the volume to near off may necessitate the feature.
I hope that allowing volume adjustment for expansion audio doesn't become the standard. As a composer, that's potentially bad because it means that when using the NES and exp audio together, it's going to sound different on different systems. The various Famicom revisions output at varying levels, so I'm guessing that's why people want to adjust it. I don't know if the NES will be 100% consistent or not. But I think it's worth noting that taking on this feature means the NES would inherit one of the problems of Famicom expansion audio..
Also, was said already, but I can confirm that the audio output of the Famicom Everdrive is nearly inaudible and basically useless on the Famicom I have, so hopefully nobody is using that as gauge of anything.
The differences isn't that big between Famicoms. I think it's mainly the AV Famicom that has low volume, and since it were released after the majority of the expansion audio games was made, games where probably made with the older Famicoms in mind. If I understand it correctly the potentiometer is not for simulating different Famicom systems, but for simulating different audio expansion cartridges since they may differ, and since the mixing has to be done in the console instead of in the cartridge in the NES' case.
Yeah the Everdrive is pretty much useless for anything that uses expansion audio. The games that are "supported" are effectively unplayable on the Everdrive unless you play without sound.
You would be surprised at the differences between Famicoms. It isn't just the AV Famicoms that have lower internal volume levels. I ripped the audio from a Japanese video which compared many revisions playing the opening to The Legend of Zelda. They show that the GPM Famicom PCBs and the AV Famicom PCBs suffer from lower volume levels. The HVC PCBs are consistently louder with their internal volume amplification :
http://www.mediafire.com/file/2r5j3nzyo ... ference.7zI disagree that the EverDrive is useless for expansion audio, unless you have a pre-HVC Famicom or a Twin. Don't get me started on the overdone low-pass filtering on the Twin Famicoms...
The Famicom Converter is an interesting idea, but it should not be dependent on having a BLW and I know there used to be a converter and there were plug through carts that required you to push down. Moreover, what is the issue with RF? Too much interference? Perhaps a few decoupling capacitors on the lines would help. RF still has its uses, not all TVs supported composite inputs and some people want to have a pure nostalgic experience with RF. It's useful to be able to record to composite and play on RF without any additional hardware.
I've also seen that video and I couldn't tell the volume difference apart that easily. Your recordings has clear differences in amplitude but I think I need to play the game to be able to compare properly. The Twin does have clearly more muffled sound in the recordings though.
I've seen mostly HVC-CPU-07, HVC-CPU-GPM-XX and Twin Famicoms and don't remember any noticeable differences when playing games. It was a long time ago I played on a GPM though.
What's a pre-HVC and what do you mean the Everdrive isn't useless for expansion audio? Most people have either an HVC 07, GPM, Twin, AV Famicom, NES or some random Famiclone. I have an HVC 07 and the expansion sound in Akumajou Densetsu is almost inaudible and easily drowned by the APU channels. The Sunsoft-5B mapper has similar problems, and the FDS waveforms are not applied properly at all and sounds like simple squares and stuff. And for FDS games, since the Everdrive also decides when it's time to flip a disk on its own, only single-sided disk games that are not using expansion audio are effectively playable on the Everdrive. The Everdrive is great for the majority of normal cartridge games that doesn't use expansion audio, but not much else.
Yeah I also don't like that the Muramasa adapter can't do RF and requires Blinking Light Win.
These are the words of the seller:
"Since the converters sticks out the front and can't be seated down a blinking light win or perfect pins are needed. It also doesn't look good being used with RF as the output, but looks amazing with even just composite."
The link is in my first post of this thread. Necroposting is allowed and encouraged at Famicom World forum so don't be afraid to post in that thread and ask the seller directly.
An ideal adapter would be something like Infinitneslives was talking about, one that can take the RAM Adapter and still be pushed down.
Pokun wrote:
Yeah I also don't like that the Muramasa adapter can't do RF and requires Blinking Light Win.
These are the words of the seller:
"Since the converters sticks out the front and can't be seated down a blinking light win or perfect pins are needed. It also doesn't look good being used with RF as the output, but looks amazing with even just composite."
What kind of statement is that again? In how far does the output quality have anything to do with the converter?
Is he implying that using the converter looks better than using a regular cartridge? Then I'm asking myself how this should work.
Or is he simply saying that it looks just like with real cartridges. Then why should this even be mentioned? "Hey, using my converter that routes pins to a slot does
not diminish the image signal that the NES sends to the TV." Erm, yes, this should be the default situation anyway, not something that is advertised as an actual feature.
It's a sales pitch, turning something bad into sounding like something good is standard PR. There's no way the adapter would improve the original picture, especially not as it seems to have problems with the signals having to travel so far already.
Pokun wrote:
I've also seen that video and I couldn't tell the volume difference apart that easily. Your recordings has clear differences in amplitude but I think I need to play the game to be able to compare properly. The Twin does have clearly more muffled sound in the recordings though.
I've seen mostly HVC-CPU-07, HVC-CPU-GPM-XX and Twin Famicoms and don't remember any noticeable differences when playing games. It was a long time ago I played on a GPM though.
What's a pre-HVC and what do you mean the Everdrive isn't useless for expansion audio unless?
I mistyped, I meant to say pre-GPM. On the GPMs and the AV Famicoms, the EverDrive's volume levels are tolerable in my opinion.
I would suggest that the extra length of the traces that the adapter adds may be the issue that causes additional RF interference. Those wires act like antennae and RF modulators are more susceptible to interference that composite output. If someone made an FDS RAM NES cartridge, that would unlikely be an issue.
I see, too bad most Famicoms are pre-GPM. Earlier there was an option in the Everdrive menu to change expansion volume between high and low, but it seems to have been removed in an update and I don't remember it ever worked as it was supposed to anyway.
Pokun wrote:
I see, too bad most Famicoms are pre-GPM. Earlier there was an option in the Everdrive menu to change expansion volume between high and low, but it seems to have been removed in an update and I don't remember it ever worked as it was supposed to anyway.
The current and recent EverDrive firmwares now use just the High setting, but it is still too Low for the HVC-CPU Famicoms.
Any flash cart that supports generating audio should have an amplifier. The Mega EverDrive X7 now supports YM2143 audio and the sd2snes supports MSU-1 audio, but people have complained that the audio levels were too low. The sd2snes added an amplifier to fix these issues.
IIRC the high and low settings never worked like they should anyway. Either setting broke some games while fixing others (well for a bit).
I've played several MSU-1 hacks on my SD2SNES (bought long before the amplifier was added) and I never thought the sound was too low. I heard that the initial SD2SNES wasn't up to the MSU-1 standard spec though.
DRW wrote:
I mean, on the inside, it's a Honeybee converter. Does any Honeybee converter have a lockout chip or any other defeat mechanism?
I took some pictures of this several weeks ago and never got around to replying to this like I meant to. In case you're still curious:
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So, yes, it does have a defeat mechanism. It looks like it also has all the traces in place for an official lockout chip (or pin equivalent), which would be preferable, but I've been loathe to cannibalize a cart to do so. I believe it has all the signals pass thru except for audio, so this one could be modded pretty easily to be ideal. However, I'll probably wait to see what the INL one looks like before modding this one.
As an aside, does anyone know if it matters that the audio pin going from the Famicom to the cart is left floating? Should this be terminated in some way or does it matter? I'm unfamiliar with how the carts mix in this audio, or how an audio modded NES would would mix it in for the famicom carts that just pass it through. Do either of these cases amplify the floating noise signal somehow, where terminating the input would improve it? As I said, I haven't looked at the circuits at all.
Oh, and here's how it attaches the ribbon, if anyone cares (the piece of tape that covered it has lost its adhesiveness and fell off):
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GreyRogue wrote:
As an aside, does anyone know if it matters that the audio pin going from the Famicom to the cart is left floating? Should this be terminated in some way or does it matter?
No, it does not matter, no, it does not need to be terminated.
Quote:
I'm unfamiliar with how the carts mix in this audio
In the Famicom, audio from the 2A03 goes through an amplifier, via the cartridge, and back out directly to the RF modulator.
In the NES, the audio path is accessible in two places on the EXP port: pin 3 is an input to let you provide a signal that will be mixed in. Pin 22 is the output of the amplifier, before it goes into the RF modulator.
Quote:
how an audio modded NES would would mix it in for the famicom carts that just pass it through.
The Famicom-to-NES adapter often connects the famicom cart edge AUDIO TO MODULATOR pin to a random one of the NES EXP pins. Usually people just put a resistor between that random EXP pins on the NES cart connector and NES expansion port pin 3.
Quote:
Do either of these cases amplify the floating noise signal somehow, where terminating the input would improve it? As I said, I haven't looked at the circuits at all.
No. If you're hearing noise, it's almost certainly coupling with the PPU, not anything else.
GreyRogue wrote:
So, yes, it does have a defeat mechanism.
Thanks.
The question now is: How exactly does this mechanism work? Is it one of those mechanisms that try to stun the lockout chip to disable it?
DRW wrote:
GreyRogue wrote:
So, yes, it does have a defeat mechanism.
Thanks.
The question now is: How exactly does this mechanism work? Is it one of those mechanisms that try to stun the lockout chip to disable it?
Yes it tries to stun it. That's what the resistors, capacitors and transistor are for. It's worse than some carts that use stunning, as those usually can be turned off after the booting, this one I believe will always activate based on PPU A10. If the resistors, capacitors and transistor are removed, however, it already has an unpopulated footprint for a CIC with traces already in place. Just soldering in the chip should work.
GreyRogue wrote:
Yes it tries to stun it. That's what the resistors, capacitors and transistor are for.
I would never put anything like this into my original perfectly-conditioned NES.
GreyRogue wrote:
I took some pictures of this several weeks ago and never got around to replying to this like I meant to. In case you're still curious:[...]
So, yes, it does have a defeat mechanism. It looks like it also has all the traces in place for an official lockout chip (or pin equivalent), which would be preferable, but I've been loathe to cannibalize a cart to do so. I believe it has all the signals pass thru except for audio, so this one could be modded pretty easily to be ideal. However, I'll probably wait to see what the INL one looks like before modding this one.
That's like exacly the same converter my brother-in-law had and whose I tried to draw the schematic back in 2005
here. I however never understood at all how it works.
Quote:
As an aside, does anyone know if it matters that the audio pin going from the Famicom to the cart is left floating? Should this be terminated in some way or does it matter? I'm unfamiliar with how the carts mix in this audio, or how an audio modded NES would would mix it in for the famicom carts that just pass it through. Do either of these cases amplify the floating noise signal somehow, where terminating the input would improve it? As I said, I haven't looked at the circuits at all.
I could be mistaken, but from what I remember : It shouldn't matter that the audio pin is not terminated, famicom carts typically have just a bridge on an already amplified audio. Famicom carts with expansion audio mix their own amplified audio into it. The signal is not amplified by the famicom after leaving the cart and goes straight to the output or RF modulator.
Yes, all the expansion carts I have will output their audio fine without the audio input in being connected to anything.
lidnariq wrote:
The Famicom-to-NES adapter often connects the famicom cart edge AUDIO TO MODULATOR pin to a random one of the NES EXP pins. Usually people just put a resistor between that random EXP pins on the NES cart connector and NES expansion port pin 3.
I thought most Famicom to NES adapters don't connect the audio loop at all? Why would they connect to any EXP pin? (And why 3?)
The PowerPak and Everdrive use EXP 6 for output. I would imagine that INL's prospective converted will connect it there as well. (That is of course how I modded my own JOINT converter, since I already had the mod in place for my powerpak.)
rainwarrior wrote:
I thought most Famicom to NES adapters don't connect the audio loop at all?
I'd been given the impression that a substantial minority of converters did connect them, per the wiki:
nesdevwiki:Cartridge connector wrote:
EXP 2 : Used by some Famicom to NES converters as audio input, because this pin is just straight ahead of the Audio In pin.
Quote:
Why would they connect to any EXP pin? (And why 3?)
Not EXP. Expansion. The connector on the bottom.
Ah, okay.
Yeah, I'm really surprised to see that note about EXP 2 on the Wiki. I guess it's been there since 2009.
I just wouldn't have assumed any converters would do anything at all with an EXP pin prior to the popularity of the "PowerPak audio mod" with EXP 6. Would be really curious to actually see one that does this!
rainwarrior wrote:
Yes, all the expansion carts I have will output their audio fine without the audio input in being connected to anything.
It wasn't really a question of whether or not it works with it floating, so much as if it was adding noise, as I was concerned the floating pin might be mixing in extra noise (On the actual Famicom, it isn't floating). I was thinking like how if you ever have powered speakers unplugged, they can hum or buzz if the input cable isn't hooked up to anything. I believe this should only happen if the line is amplified without any signal at an amplification stage (either in the cart or in the NES). Sounds like others have looked at this, though, and this isn't an issue.