SNES vs. Genesis audio

This is an archive of a topic from NESdev BBS, taken in mid-October 2019 before a server upgrade.
View original topic

by on (#60428)
In this post, Bregalad wrote:
Well you'd have to be pretty dumb to confuse the sound coming out of the NES and the SNES.

I gotta say, you could intentionally design a SNES game that sounds like Lagrange Point and it wouldn't be too far out of place.

Well, maybe it sounds more like a Genesis game. :) Genesis had the weaker chip and didn't do MIDI.

by on (#60430)
Everyone says the SNES has better sound than the MD/Genesis but I find SNES sounds terribly muffled most of the time, like they're sampled at very low rates...

Note that I know precisely nothing about how the SNES generates sound (for all I know it could use sound sampled at low rates), that's just the impression I get.

by on (#60432)
The SNES did use sampled sounds for it's audio, the SPC is a wavetable chip. It does orchestral stuff a lot better than the Genesis, which just had an FM chip, which was a lot more bloopy.

by on (#60434)
tokumaru wrote:
Everyone says the SNES has better sound than the MD/Genesis but I find SNES sounds terribly muffled most of the time, like they're sampled at very low rates...

Sounds like a made-up argument of a biased Saga fanboy who refuses to admit that the Super NES is like 10 times superior to his beloved Sega genesis in therms of graphics & sound (sorry couldn't resist...)

Okay some SNES games sounds bad this is a fact, but it's all their fault for using bad samples.

by on (#60435)
I prefer the bleepy bloopy sort-of-hollow-sounding music on the Genesis to the SNES's first foray into more realistic audio. Though that's not terribly on topic.

by on (#60437)
I think the GBA's sound mixer that almost all games used is horrible. Sample quality is terrible (Often as low as 5500Hz!!!), then it's mixed together at a low sampling rate.
Almost makes me wish that someone go replace the GSF format with a direct sappy player format. Say, convert them to IT files or something.

by on (#60438)
Quote:
Almost makes me wish that someone go replace the GSF format with a direct sappy player format.

Couldn't agree more. They sound okay on a real GBA/DS but not good when emulated on my PC. I think about 95% of games uses the same sound driver, only the # of channels, the sample rate and stereo/mono changes.

Talking about that I made a java program to insert audio track from any game into any of the FF advance series (so you can use their cool visualizer for any GBA game that has the standard sound driver), it works but the drums are often too high pitched, because they aren't resampled, and the FF advances uses a sampling rate of ~18kHz which is higher than most games. However, only Golden Sun had them too low, probably because it uses an even higher sample rate.

by on (#60440)
I knew the GBA would have crappy sound the moment I read it was done in software. Nothing inherently wrong with software, but the fact that it's competing for CPU time that could be spent on the game means that sound will be on the losing end of that developer battle; especially for a portable system, developers don't care much about sound quality as compared to graphics or enemy complexity (or not having to optimize code as much).

by on (#60441)
You are probably right... but the fact that the DAC is 8-bit doesn't help either. 16-bits would be necessary for something sounding good.

Altough what I love with the GBA is the presence of GBC sound channels and the crazy amount of games which uses them a lot.

by on (#60445)
Bregalad wrote:
Sounds like a made-up argument of a biased Saga fanboy who refuses to admit that the Super NES is like 10 times superior to his beloved Sega genesis in therms of graphics & sound (sorry couldn't resist...)

I hope you are not talking about me, because I'm by no means a fanboy of any kind. I like Nintendo and Sega 8 and 16-bit consoles pretty much equally, and I have my own perceptions of the differences between them.

I have to disagree that the SNES is obviously superior to the MD/Genesis in both sound and video, and in fact you are the one sounding like a fanboy.

The SNES does have more video features (colors, effects, and so on), but sometimes I think the extra horizontal resolution of the MD/Genesis makes a big difference. Same goes for sound. I'll take almost any Genesis game rather than a SNES game that that sounds like it's playing inside a bucket.

by on (#60459)
Bregalad wrote:
Okay some SNES games sounds bad this is a fact, but it's all their fault for using bad samples.

The SPC700 and DSP share a 64 KiB RAM chip. Higher sample rates use more RAM and more ROM. Try making a .xm with multiple songs that fits in about 96 KiB,* and make sure cubic resampling is turned on in the player, and see if you don't have to downsample (and muffle) the samples to make them fit.

Sure, sound from the Yamaha FM chips in Lagrange Point, the Genesis, and the AdLib card for PCs has more high-frequency content. But like the 2A03 and any other pure synth, it sounds artificial, where every game ends up sounding like it uses the same instruments. There's a reason why PC MIDI playback moved on from AdLib to software-mixed PCM. Or would Genesis games sound better with a soundtrack by Phil Collins?

Oh, and GBA sound doesn't suck. Go play Luminesweeper (video, rom) and hear how good a software music player engine can be.


* Larger than 64 KiB because of BRR compression that cuts samples to 56% of 8-bit, but smaller than 113 KiB because of the playback engine, echo buffer, and the fact that phrase data doesn't pack as well as samples.

by on (#60462)
tokumaru wrote:
I have to disagree that the SNES is obviously superior to the MD/Genesis in both sound and video, and in fact you are the one sounding like a fanboy.


- Care to proof it? I can mention a few games. The most obvious difference is Street Fighter: while the Genesis version brings more arcade fidelity, the sound is terrible, specially for voices. The graphics looks "missing" colors; the SNES palette is far more complete and gives a much better visual looking.

- Perhaps you're with Sonic games in mind? Well, the SNES has no Sonic game style AFAIK; I wouldn't say Speedy Gonzales is an exception though. Anyway, I won't extend it so far, but... Battletoads is another example, plus Battletoads & Double Dragon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zfUhWzmAIE (SF comparison)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sk9rMm-K2vY (Mortal Kombat comparison, in spanish, err... a bit crap)

by on (#60463)
Pac-Attack's music sounds better on the Genesis than on the Super NES. (I've rented both.) In fact, the GBA version of Pac-Attack used samples recorded from a Genesis. Magazine reviews said the same thing about the title screen music in the different Beavis and Butt-head games on the two platforms: the Super NES game's music sounded thin.

But then, Disney's Pinocchio sounds far better on the Super NES, and so does Zoop.

Back to the NES: European-developed games using arpeggio push the 2A03, and Sunsoft bass pushes it further.

by on (#60467)
Which SNES bad do you have in mind who sounds so bad ? Some games play "steamed" sound effects at very low rates, it is true, and because they took so much space in memory they had few left for musical samples. This doesn't sound very good and is a bad usage of the hardware. But some games like Secret of Mana or Chrono Trigger has awesome sound effects and honnestly sounds at least 10 times better than what would be done on the Genesis with those FM instruments which are aggressive.

The SPC has a sampling rate of 32kHz which is almost CD quality, and use gaussian interpolation which remove all artifacts when playing samples at high frequencies. And I don't think the human hear can notice the difference between 32kHz and 44.1 kHz in most cases.

PS : Sunsoft's bass is another thing which is IMO over rated. It sounds "windy" to me.

by on (#60468)
(disclaimer: I am a sega hating ninty fanboy, ignoring the dreamcast, for it was awesome)

Square and Enix's SNES games are pretty much the pinnacle of pointing out why the genesis (and it's pathetic SMS-class audio) sucked. A slightly more equitable take would be that the SNES was good at orchestral stuff, the genesis at more techno stuff. When one or the other tried to cross over, the results almost invariably sucked.

Good FM and wavetable music sound pretty awesome. Bad FM music is an order of magnitude worse than bad wavetable.

by on (#60470)
I don't see much how the SNES could suck for techno. I can't come with any examples right now but I'm pretty sure it is in theory able to put very good techno too.

by on (#60475)
I don't know why, for most people, one console has to suck while the other is awesome when it comes to SNES x MD. I like both, and both have games that were designed around the console's features and limitations, and these games were usually good. But many games sucked, no matter the console.

by on (#60477)
I fully agree with that. It's just a fact that SNES has much more features and much less limitations than it's direct concurent, and so many people refuse to admit it. This don't mean all genesis games are bad or anything.

For an extreme example, I'm a fan of the NES, but I don't claim the NES is superior to the PS3 in therms of graphics and sound just because I'm a biased fan. I'd expect Sega fants to act the same.

by on (#60480)
The Genesis has some awesome music, and so does the SNES. The Genesis also has some awful music, and so does the SNES. The Genesis is like a saxophone that can be played by a very talented performer. The SNES is like a keyboard that can beplayed by a very talented performer. As for not being able to enjoy both consoles' music, see cognitive dissonance.

by on (#60509)
Bregalad wrote:
I don't see much how the SNES could suck for techno. I can't come with any examples right now but I'm pretty sure it is in theory able to put very good techno too.


BioMetal. Sounds awesome if you play the sound through just about anything other than the usual telly speakers.

by on (#60762)
There are Genesis games that sound better because the developer did a crappy job on the SuperNES version. However, Pushed to the limits the SuperNES could easily come out on top. Side by side the Genesis version usually sounds like there is something missing. It's the same tune, but it lacks depth.

by on (#60784)
65816.....68000......There's no contest just at the speed factor of how fast the genesis can change, and plus how it has 2 sound processors that can be accessed by 2 computers I think hardware wise the 2 worst sound chips would still be better :/



Maybe it's my biased love for anything Motorola 68xx and 68xxx ^_^

by on (#60790)
- Fact or myth? The Genesis DAC could be much better. Voice samples are an example.

by on (#60802)
Well it doesn't matter how good is the DAC if the chip that is behind is not good huh.

Quote:


65816.....68000......There's no contest just at the speed factor of how fast the genesis can change, and plus how it has 2 sound processors that can be accessed by 2 computers I think hardware wise the 2 worst sound chips would still be better :/

So you're saying 2 bad processors are better than one good ? Sorry this makes no sense. Anyway the SNES has 2 processors too, the 65816 and the SPC700.

by on (#60803)
The Genesis has both the FM chip and the same PSG used in the Master System. Put together, there are 10 channels: six FM channels, three pulse waves fixed to 50% duty, and one noise. That's two more than the SNES unless you pull the trick of putting chord samples in SPC RAM.

And the Genesis CPUs are more suited to third-party development tools from other platforms. The only other major computing platform with a 65C816 was the Apple IIGS, which got ignored in favor of the PC (8086), Mac (68000), and Amiga (also 68000), and I don't recall seeing the SPC700 ever used elsewhere.

by on (#60811)
The subject of SNES vs Genesis (vs TG-16) has already been beaten to death over at the SpritesMind forum. Anyone who feels very strongly about one console or the other could head over there and play their thread necromancer card..

by on (#60816)
Quote:
Put together, there are 10 channels: six FM channels, three pulse waves fixed to 50% duty, and one noise.

Well you got a point. So yes the Genesis has more channels, but the features of said channels is much inferior to features of SNES'.

This is about the same as C64 vs NES : The NES has more channels, but the features offered the C64's channels are higher.

by on (#60818)
However, nobody can claim that SNES actually sounds better than Genesis, or vice versa, considering one's perception of audio is a completely personal decision. More channels doesn't mean it sounds better any more than more pixels means it looks better. You may find less people who consider Genesis the better sounding machine, but that doesn't mean they're wrong.

by on (#60832)
Quote:
The SPC has a sampling rate of 32kHz which is almost CD quality, and use gaussian interpolation which remove all artifacts when playing samples at high frequencies. And I don't think the human hear can notice the difference between 32kHz and 44.1 kHz in most cases.


AFIAK, the DSP is doing phase accumulation on a fixed output 32khz system (not a period divide down). The YM2612 is definitely doing phase accumulation, because you need fine resolution steps for frequency modulation (although it's still phase modulation). The 2612 doesn't have any sort of digital filtering (that I know of), so it uses a higher output.. something like 49-51khz. But you get "stepping" artifacts without it, not to mention the artifacts from playing the internal digital sinewave at higher frequencies (sample skips). All Genesis units filter the 2612 to lower than the max output. I suspect this was because of the above, but someone did find out that the 2612 does a funky sequential output of each channel independently - instead of mixing internally and requires external filtering to "group" them instead of just a simpe internall ADDER and a higher res DAC. So maybe it was for both reasons, dunno. Anyway, untouched Genesis systems had 32khz (16khz frequency response) or even lower, after filtering.

Bregalad wrote:
Quote:
Put together, there are 10 channels: six FM channels, three pulse waves fixed to 50% duty, and one noise.

Well you got a point. So yes the Genesis has more channels, but the features of said channels is much inferior to features of SNES'.


PSG in the SMS is pretty damn limited, if not grating on the ears. Specifically stating like that is a bit of a misnomer. Relatively speaking, it's probably closer to 8 in real world usage. But don't forget, quite a few Genesis games mixed up to 2 channels on channel six of the FM chip in direct write DAC mode (8bit, but still). No frequency scaling, but you really don't need that for drumkits and such. So technically, you could say up to 11 or so channels in some setups (games that actually did this). The stereo output on the 2612 is also kind of weak. While you do have control over it, it's only hard pan left or right per channel (FM only, PSG is mono). So if you want any sort of "balancing" or panning effect, you have to use 2 FM channel in sync to achieve this effect. Personally, I don't like hard panned channels. Even less so with earphones one (BITD, I thought my Genesis was broken when I used my head phones because of this >_> ). So, doing any real sort of stereo stuff will loose you a channel per pseudo channel on the Genesis.

Quote:
I don't see much how the SNES could suck for techno. I can't come with any examples right now but I'm pretty sure it is in theory able to put very good techno too.


Because most techno is about bending or shaping the sound over time. You can simulate low frequency "filter" changes on FM too. FM is perfect for changing the sound over a long period of time. This doesn't mean the SPC can't do techno, as there is "techno" that's pretty simple. But from a composers point of view, FM chip definitely gives you more freedom in this area. I mean, given the small amount of ram of the SPC. It's still subjective, but at least you have some real situations between the two that you can directly compare.

Quote:
- Fact or myth? The Genesis DAC could be much better. Voice samples are an example.


Voice samples , yeah - but quite a few Genesis games use the DAC for drumkits and such too. You don't really hear the distortion from those type of samples, versus something like voice and such. And in fact, it's not the resolution of the DAC. Or even that it has no volume control over the DAC in that mode, but the delivery system. There's no interrupt, or self feeding DAC, or DMA buffer. The z80 has to use cycle timing to produce output (as well as switch banks with its slow banking method).

Quote:
You are probably right... but the fact that the DAC is 8-bit doesn't help either. 16-bits would be necessary for something sounding good.


Not even 16bit. 10bit or 12bit would sound great (and it does).

Quote:
Back to the NES: European-developed games using arpeggio push the 2A03, and Sunsoft bass pushes it further.


Ugh. Arpeggio usually grates on my nerves. It's OK sometimes, but most of the time I don't like. Japanese developers got a long just fine without it on the NES/Famicom.

Quote:
Good FM and wavetable music sound pretty awesome. Bad FM music is an order of magnitude worse than bad wavetable.


^This. Bad SNES music is just average/forgettable. But bad FM grates on the ear drums.

I've heard plenty of impressive stuff on the Genesis. But BITD, it was all about trying to reach that realistic sound. SNES was cutting edge on this field, but nowadays - SNES comes off as cheesy rather than realistic since we've come along way. And Genesis sound is now more forgiving. The bad stuff is still bad, but the good stuff is great and the impressive technical music compositions on the Genesis just blows my mind. Listening back to a lot of SNES music, is seems clear to me that it (SPC) wasn't really pushed to its potential much, other than square's soft orchestral stuff. Yuko Koshiro is often cited for Genesis music, but his music for Super Adventure Island is awesome on the SNES. Shame he didn't get more involved with the sound chip (he didn't even write the music engine for that game, which he normally did on other systems). A lot of SNES games sounded like they uses stock samples of a dev kit.

As far as sound FX? SNES almost every time. I was very happy with the SNES sound FX (voice or otherwise). I never liked the FM generated sound effects in Genesis games. Even coming directly from NES to Genesis in 1990. I actually prefer NES PSG sound effects over most Genesis style FM sound FX.

by on (#60839)
tomaitheous wrote:
someone did find out that the 2612 does a funky sequential output of each channel independently - instead of mixing internally and requires external filtering to "group" them instead of just a simpe internall ADDER and a higher res DAC.

The sample playback hardware in the Apple IIGS did the same thing.

by on (#60845)
Such time-division multiplexing seems like a great way to reduce hardware cost. The only consequence I can see is harmonics at N times the sampling rate, where N is the number of channels. These will be filtered out by the low-pass anyway. The Namco sound chip uses the same scheme, with N variable based on the number of channels.

by on (#60851)
Quote:
The sample playback hardware in the Apple IIGS did the same thing.


Heh, that's interesting. The addon sound card, or the built on one? I remember something about one of the Apple II models having a wavetable card. Is this the one you're talking about? (Sorry, I don't know my Apple II specs/history very much)

blargg wrote:
Such time-division multiplexing seems like a great way to reduce hardware cost. The only consequence I can see is harmonics at N times the sampling rate, where N is the number of channels. These will be filtered out by the low-pass anyway. The Namco sound chip uses the same scheme, with N variable based on the number of channels.


Even without a low pass filter, the speakers are going to act as a low pass filter themselves, no? Even high end speakers seem to have a drop off at around 20-25khz frequency response (and I have no idea at what power that's rated at - max negative to max positive amplitude response time. Probably something pretty small in difference).

IIRC, TmEE runs his Genesis systems with a faster amp and put the cut off pretty high. I think he mentioned it sounds fine on his speakers and headphones, but capturing the audio with a normal 44khz 16bit sound card led to artifacts in the recording.

by on (#60855)
tomaitheous wrote:
Quote:
The sample playback hardware in the Apple IIGS did the same thing.

Heh, that's interesting. The addon sound card, or the built on one?

The Ensoniq on the motherboard. It's all spelled out in the Apple IIGS Hardware Reference.

by on (#60857)
tomaitheous wrote:
Listening back to a lot of SNES music, is seems clear to me that it (SPC) wasn't really pushed to its potential much, other than square's soft orchestral stuff. Yuko Koshiro is often cited for Genesis music, but his music for Super Adventure Island is awesome on the SNES. Shame he didn't get more involved with the sound chip (he didn't even write the music engine for that game, which he normally did on other systems). A lot of SNES games sounded like they uses stock samples of a dev kit.

Very true. I've been in a SNES phase recently and while some Japanese companies experimented a bit, too many of them used the stock sound driver and samples. Why don't we list here some games that actually went the extra mile to make great music, with great-sounding instruments (so that eliminates several Square/Enix games right away), on the SNES?

I'll start with Equinox (forgetting about the title and ending music for now) and ActRaiser, of course.

by on (#60858)
Didn't ActRaiser use the stock instruments?

by on (#60860)
Naah, the stock ones are what you'd hear in a Bandai game like The Great Battle. :-D

by on (#60863)
A few of my favorites:

Donkey Kong Country 2: WOW. The sheer variety of sounds in this soundtrack is amazing. Dave Wise and the Rare programmers are geniuses.
Jurassic Park: bad game, good soundtrack. "Raptor Rap" is probably my favorite; I love the drums and the jungle ambience in the background.
Super Adventure Island: probably one of Yuzo Koshiro's best 16-bit works. Too bad it's pretty short.
Super Castlevania IV: this one seems to use a couple of stock instruments, but otherwise it's a fantastic soundtrack, especially considering how old it is (1991). I love the piano sample used in "Chandeliers."
Super Bonk: the instruments aren't particularly noteworthy, but overall it's a really high-quality soundtrack with a ton of character.

by on (#60865)
You'll have to explain me what is a "stock sample" so I can answer this question.

Tales of Phantasia and Star Ocean probably pushed the SPC700 to it's limit being able to play multiple voice/streamed sound effect at the same time, the musical instruments sounds good (although identical in both games) and there is no "freeze" when a new music or sound effect is playing like there is in most other SNES games (as the main CPU is busy sending data to the SPC), this is very noticeable in Chrono Trigger at the start and end of each battle.

Tactics Ogre sounds really orchestral to me, it really sounds better than most SNES games.

by on (#60868)
Just a few I can think of right now (in terms of good compositions - some of the instruments may still be questionable):

Pinball Fantasies
Parodius Da!
Gokujou Parodius
Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts
Wild Guns

by on (#60869)
Quote:
You'll have to explain me what is a "stock sample" so I can answer this question.

Samples that they were given as part of a dev kit, or got from some common source (maybe the sample bank in some digital synth).
I would explain it as samples that sound like they were taken from the General MIDI sample set on a Windows PC.. Very generic stuff, like "here we have a 'grand piano', it sounds exactly the same as the grand piano in 20 other games".
I always felt the instruments in Megaman X fell into that category. But the compositions are so darn good that I can't _not_ like the music :P

by on (#60870)
Mmmh and where else would you get samples ?

You sure can create your own but only for very simplistic sounds that don't sound like an instrument. Chrono Trigger does something cool with a sample that is square wave with the duty cycle changing dynamically (it's instrument #16, used in a few songs and sound effects).

by on (#60871)
Muffledness of SNES stuff is what bothers me the most... I wish reas SNES could sound like emulation where sample rate is set high and all interpolation and filtering is turned off so the sound becomes crisp. The output sample rate is high enough for somewhat crisp sound but the interpolation nulls all there could have been.
The simple 8ch sampler in MegaCD has no interpolation whatsoever and very close sample rate to SNES, I lifted the fitering point well above 20KHz and damn the sound became ultra crisp, pleasure to listen to. Unfortunately it did not happen on SNES when I did that :(

SNES and other sample based setups are easier to work on, on some aspects... you don't have to create instreuments from ~50 parameters like you do on FM, you just use a recording of some.. drawback is that you only got limited amount of memory to hold the samples and you need to share it with the sound engine, music data and sound effects data aswell not just samples needed for music itself... Synthesizer will be better on that part since an instrument will take negligable amoun of space, wether its crappy or good it will take same amount of space... now how good the isntrument will be is greatly dependant on the composer... FM is rather difficult to get around to and its very overwhelming in the beginning. It will take quite a lot of time before you actually understand what all of the parameters do, and when you can think about "today I'll make a flute" and you go and make it...

Some comments about the crappy sample playback on MD : this is all about the quality of the code that handles sound... MD does not give you any high enough percision timers that generate interrupts, there's no FIFO on the DAC channel nor any other features... just a DAC which is completely software driven. YM offers you 2x timers, but neither is wired to the interrupt, only VBL is but that is useless for sound. From my experience though, I just cannot understand how could 99% of the single PCM channel music drivers have so crappy sample playback... I would understand it if it was 2 or more channels because the banking mechanism on Z80 side is truly horrible and slow....

MD does offer much more freedom on the sound area though, the Z80 has more or less full access to the rest of the system, only thing you hold in RAM is the sound playback code and perhaps some related data, all else you can access directly from the ROM. That is how I manage ~450KB of samples that any of the tunes can use at any time in my sound system. On SNES you have these slow ports and you have to involve both sides into getting data in and out from either side... not so on MD, one side can run totally independently from other, only problem is communications... because of a timing problem, reads and writes to 68K RAM from Z80 are ineffective so for comms the 68K has to stop Z80 and read/write values from/to its RAM. That will have some negative effect on sample playback quality, but this is something you do not do very often so the effect is minimal.

Here's few recordings from MegaCD (sound mod inside MegaCD, going to my MD2 and through Crystal Clear Audio Mod in the MD2) :
http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/4/21/ ... CDPCM3.ogg
http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/4/21/ ... CDPCM0.ogg
http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/4/21/ ... EDBGM0.ogg
http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/4/21/ ... NGAME0.ogg
MegaCD has one advantage, which is that in that 64KB of RAM sound PCM chip, you do not have to store music playback code, but the samples are all uncompressed... but things sound rather good. None of the recordings there have been processed in any way, just direct recordings.
The Silpheed recordings have YM and PSG in the mix also. I'd like SNES to sound that crisp.....

Here's couple of pure MD stuff, from my sound engine and my MD2 sound mod :
http://8bitcollective.com/music/TmEE/One+Last+Step/
http://8bitcollective.com/music/TmEE/Guile+Theme/
http://8bitcollective.com/music/TmEE/Ev ... Around+(MD)/

I kinda doubt anyone listens any of those recordings though ^^

by on (#60873)
Quote:
Mmmh and where else would you get samples ?

You sure can create your own but only for very simplistic sounds that don't sound like an instrument.


There's nothing saying you can't sample real instruments if you've got the right equipment.
But I wasn't saying that there is anything wrong with using samples created by other people. The problem I see is when a lot of games use the same (or very similar) samples, which sometimes also are of poor quality. Some games didn't make much of an effort to make their music distinct from a lot of other games, which gets boring in the long run.

by on (#60891)
TmEE wrote:
Muffledness of SNES stuff is what bothers me the most... I wish reas SNES could sound like emulation where sample rate is set high and all interpolation and filtering is turned off so the sound becomes crisp. The output sample rate is high enough for somewhat crisp sound but the interpolation nulls all there could have been.
The simple 8ch sampler in MegaCD has no interpolation whatsoever and very close sample rate to SNES, I lifted the fitering point well above 20KHz and damn the sound became ultra crisp, pleasure to listen to. Unfortunately it did not happen on SNES when I did that :(

IMO, the post DAC hardware in the SNES isn't the best. There is a relatively simple mod (compared to some other mods I have seen) for the SNES to output a digital S/PDIF signal. Can't get any cleaner than that. I'l try and get some recordings done if anybody's interested.

Quote:
SNES and other sample based setups are easier to work on, on some aspects... you don't have to create instreuments from ~50 parameters like you do on FM, you just use a recording of some.. drawback is that you only got limited amount of memory to hold the samples and you need to share it with the sound engine, music data and sound effects data aswell not just samples needed for music itself...


From what I have seen while my idle browsing through the C64 HVSC, on average the entirety of a games audio is stored in ~8Kb at any one time. Thats driver, music, instruments and sometimes even SFX routines. I dare say that similar music drivers on the SPC700 take about the same space and considering the BRR compression the DSP uses for it's sample data there is a decent amount a space left for sample data. And let's not forget that it is just as easy to bend samples to one's will as it is a FM synth (eg, The entirety of the cast in Starfox is made from the one "Wing Damaged" sample)

Quote:
Here's few recordings from MegaCD (sound mod inside MegaCD, going to my MD2 and through Crystal Clear Audio Mod in the MD2) :
http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/4/21/ ... CDPCM3.ogg
http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/4/21/ ... CDPCM0.ogg
http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/4/21/ ... EDBGM0.ogg
http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/4/21/ ... NGAME0.ogg
MegaCD has one advantage, which is that in that 64KB of RAM sound PCM chip, you do not have to store music playback code, but the samples are all uncompressed... but things sound rather good. None of the recordings there have been processed in any way, just direct recordings.
The Silpheed recordings have YM and PSG in the mix also. I'd like SNES to sound that crisp.....


They don't sound to bad but theres too much aliasing (is that the right word?). The Amiga potentially has far superior PCM capabilities compared to the MegaCD (not accounting for raw storage space), but nearly all Amiga music I listen to has the machine's internal audio filter turned ON to avoid what I hear in your recordings which sound crisp yes, but IMO, not as clean as I prefer.

by on (#60895)
Hojo_Norem wrote:
(eg, The entirety of the cast in Starfox is made from the one "Wing Damaged" sample)


That's a freaking awesome bit of trivia.

So I guess Falco is really saying "wing wing wing damage" and not "bwe bwe bwe jammin" like I always imagined.

by on (#60901)
The SNES equivalent of removing the low-pass filter from a Genesis would be using a different interpolation scheme in the SPC-700, as some SPC players do. The BRR sample encoding scheme also employs a low-pass filter, so you might adjust that as well. This of course can't make up for the samples themselves lacking higher frequency content. Put another way, even a radically-enhanced SPC-700 couldn't deliver much cripser sound, while a radically-enhanced YM2612 could, because the FM parameters are essentially analog.

by on (#60916)
Disch wrote:
Hojo_Norem wrote:
(eg, The entirety of the cast in Starfox is made from the one "Wing Damaged" sample)

That's a freaking awesome bit of trivia.

So I guess Falco is really saying "wing wing wing damage" and not "bwe bwe bwe jammin" like I always imagined.

"Damage" explains why Falco and Fox sound like they're saying a so-called bad word. I heard "God dammit da-dammit da-damn" when I first played it.

by on (#60918)
tepples wrote:
Disch wrote:
Hojo_Norem wrote:
(eg, The entirety of the cast in Starfox is made from the one "Wing Damaged" sample)

That's a freaking awesome bit of trivia.

So I guess Falco is really saying "wing wing wing damage" and not "bwe bwe bwe jammin" like I always imagined.

"Damage" explains why Falco and Fox sound like they're saying a so-called bad word. I heard "God dammit da-dammit da-damn" when I first played it.

Although this sort of language is understandable when you have a wingman like Slippy.

by on (#61097)
Hojo_Norem wrote:
IMO, the post DAC hardware in the SNES isn't the best. There is a relatively simple mod (compared to some other mods I have seen) for the SNES to output a digital S/PDIF signal. Can't get any cleaner than that. I'l try and get some recordings done if anybody's interested.


The post DAC HW is not bad at all in the separate SPC machines. SPDIF mod does not get rid of the interpolation which is one of the biggest reasons for muffled sound, SPDIF gets rid of the negligable analog filtering effects, but difital filtering andi nterpolation effects still remain, which I consider unwanted (and you want it to be present).

Hojo_Norem wrote:
From what I have seen while my idle browsing through the C64 HVSC, on average the entirety of a games audio is stored in ~8Kb at any one time. Thats driver, music, instruments and sometimes even SFX routines. I dare say that similar music drivers on the SPC700 take about the same space and considering the BRR compression the DSP uses for it's sample data there is a decent amount a space left for sample data. And let's not forget that it is just as easy to bend samples to one's will as it is a FM synth (eg, The entirety of the cast in Starfox is made from the one "Wing Damaged" sample)


My MD sound system has its sound engine take up all the 8KB of RAM the Z80 has, with 4KB for 128 instruments and 28KB of 112 sound effects, then there's up to 514KB of music data per music file and up to 16MBytes of samples (due to 24bit addressing). This is all designed to work around MD setup, it cannot be made working on SNES or some other setup without major cutting back.

Hojo_Norem wrote:
They don't sound to bad but theres too much aliasing (is that the right word?). The Amiga potentially has far superior PCM capabilities compared to the MegaCD (not accounting for raw storage space), but nearly all Amiga music I listen to has the machine's internal audio filter turned ON to avoid what I hear in your recordings which sound crisp yes, but IMO, not as clean as I prefer.


This is aliasing and it is exactly what I want ot be heard by removign the filters. I killed absolutely all filtering in my Amiga CD32 and it sounds great now, you would say not that great. Crisp and aliased > "clean" and muffled for me. I hate filtering, if I want it, I just push in a button on my amp (which I never do :P)

by on (#61099)
I don't see why interpolation wouldn't be desirable. You can disable interpolation in some players, and you can see how bad it sounds without it. This basically create "staircase waveforms" on samples, and sounds bad. The only samples that'd sound better without it is on saw waves and square waves.

Maybe Cubic or Sine interpolation is better than Gaussian though if that is what you mean. It outputs better treble. But if you want higer frequencies to sound good the only way is to use a higher sample rate = more memory.

by on (#61112)
TmEE wrote:
This is aliasing and it is exactly what I want ot be heard by removign the filters. I killed absolutely all filtering in my Amiga CD32 and it sounds great now, you would say not that great. Crisp and aliased > "clean" and muffled for me. I hate filtering, if I want it, I just push in a button on my amp (which I never do :P)


Speaking of amps, rather than putting a lot of effort into removing filters, why don't you just turn up the treble / high freq eq on your amp? It won't go high enough? Then just add an external graphic equaliser separate and bump up the high freqs on that.

My point about the Amiga is that unlike most other machines, the filter on the Amiga is completely optional and can be disabled and enabled in software. By forcing the filters off the quality of certain types of sounds are degraded (more on this below) along with, more importantly, the composer's original vision.

Turning filters off degrades sound quality you here me say? Lets take StarWing for example, a decent mix of both electronic band style music and classical orchestral music. In my spc player I tuned the interpolation off and set the output freq to 32Kz (snes native). Now when I hit play what I hear is sharper by a long shot but theres one large problem, EVERYTHING is sharper. Things like bass drums and guitars and other low freq sounds get that nasty aliasing which just make them sound bad and practically kills the bass. Putting the setting back to what I usually have them at and then pushing the treble on my amp and soundcard to the max sharpened the playback to practically the same levels with one major difference, the low freq sounds were nowhere nearly as poisoned by high freq artefacts.

But I'm going on alot about sampled stuff here. I dare say that removing filters on stuff with (nealy) pure synth audio is a good thing because most of the time those filters are to compensate for usually cheap circuit design.

by on (#61121)
Bregalad wrote:
The only samples that'd sound better without it is on saw waves and square waves.

And possibly certain percussion instruments with more noise than pitch.

In the process of developing Luminesweeper, I made a GBA tech demo that played a Nine Inch Nails song while displaying a "Mode 7" (really mode 1) screen. Someone on a forum wondered why the sound was so much better than my GSM player. They used the same codec, the same bitrate, and the same sample rate. It turned out that the GSM player was doing linear interpolation, while the demo was using nearest-neighbor (no) interpolation. So to explain the difference, I made this file:
An interpolation from "The legend of MAX"
  1. Original sample
  2. #1 low-passed at 9 kHz, corresponding to the 18157 Hz sample rate used by GSM Player and Luminesweeper
  3. #2 with every other sample repeated, corresponding to "No Interpolation" in Modplug Tracker
  4. #3 convolved with [.5 .5] filter, corresponding to "Linear" in Modplug Tracker
I guess "no interpolation" creates fake treble that some people accustomed to chiptunes might find pleasing, much like the spectral band replication in mp3PRO and some AAC variants.

Hojo_Norem wrote:
but theres one large problem, EVERYTHING is sharper.

Then perhaps Sony should have included switchable interpolation modes per channel.

by on (#61134)
Quote:



Then perhaps Sony should have included switchable interpolation modes per channel.

Perhaps.... I just did some tests and listened carefully songs with different interpolations. Now that it was pointed to, it is really obvious Cubic sounds the best. Gaussian interpolation make it sounds like a lowpass filter where that "muffled" sounds comes while the cubic interpolaiton would have been perfect. This is especially noticeable in the battle music of Chrono Trigger, the drums sounds really more clear with cubic interpolation while they sound muffled with Gaussian interpolation (the drums are recorded at a rate HIGHER than 32 kHz so the sample rate isn't going to make anything sound muffled here).

Linar interpolation sounds quite good too, but sounds terrible for high rates are arcitfacts are created, this is especially noticeable in "Slam Shuffle" or "Techno de Chocobo" in FF6.
No interpolation create lots of artifacts like tepples says "fake treble" or just random noise. There is also the artifact problem very noticeable in FF6. I don't see how this could be considered to sound better.

by on (#61315)
Bregalad wrote:
I don't see why interpolation wouldn't be desirable. You can disable interpolation in some players, and you can see how bad it sounds without it. This basically create "staircase waveforms" on samples, and sounds bad. The only samples that'd sound better without it is on saw waves and square waves.

Maybe Cubic or Sine interpolation is better than Gaussian though if that is what you mean. It outputs better treble. But if you want higer frequencies to sound good the only way is to use a higher sample rate = more memory.


I don't find no interpolation bad, the opposite. With most interpolation methods you get rather muffled sound or something that is still not very bright...
Sinc was the only interpolation that "fixes" lows but retains highs, but it happens to be quite CPU heavy compared to other methods.

This is all highly subjective so there's not much point in arguing about it...

Hojo_Norem wrote:
Speaking of amps, rather than putting a lot of effort into removing filters, why don't you just turn up the treble / high freq eq on your amp? It won't go high enough? Then just add an external graphic equaliser separate and bump up the high freqs on that.

There's not much effect on turning up ohighs n the EQ if there is nothing to begin with. And there's not much effort needed to get rid of LPFs, just locate some capacitors and take them out. If you just turn up highs you get nearly no difference, just possible line noise increases, nothing much more.

Hojo_Norem wrote:
My point about the Amiga is that unlike most other machines, the filter on the Amiga is completely optional and can be disabled and enabled in software. By forcing the filters off the quality of certain types of sounds are degraded (more on this below) along with, more importantly, the composer's original vision.


Amiga has mandatory filters with cutoff a bit below 10KHz and optional filters which bring down the cutoff point to ~5KHz when enabled.
I could have left in the optional filter, but seems nearly all games enable it and when I listened how things were with and without, I most definitely preferred no filters.
I also removed filters because things were cutting into CDDA sound too. I know how my music CDs are supposed to sound and they sounded rather poor through the CD32.

Hojo_Norem wrote:
Turning filters off degrades sound quality you here me say? Lets take StarWing for example, a decent mix of both electronic band style music and classical orchestral music. In my spc player I tuned the interpolation off and set the output freq to 32Kz (snes native). Now when I hit play what I hear is sharper by a long shot but theres one large problem, EVERYTHING is sharper. Things like bass drums and guitars and other low freq sounds get that nasty aliasing which just make them sound bad and practically kills the bass. Putting the setting back to what I usually have them at and then pushing the treble on my amp and soundcard to the max sharpened the playback to practically the same levels with one major difference, the low freq sounds were nowhere nearly as poisoned by high freq artefacts.


Only thing that somewhat suffers from no filtering is the bass, percussion is something that always improves, especially if the sampels are from a real drumkit rather than synthesized (I've been in a band, I know how percussion should sound :P I'm no trying to sound cocky here).
But the thing with low freqs is much easier to get around to than highs, mainly because low freqs have very high amplitude compared to all else so they're quite easy to mess with and you can pretty much smooth them out with an analog equalizer while retaining highs etc. One thing where analog definitely beats digital is equalization stuff... there's nearly no need to fear clipping on any setting as long as input signal is not too loud, that is, with decent equipment...

Hojo_Norem wrote:
But I'm going on alot about sampled stuff here. I dare say that removing filters on stuff with (nealy) pure synth audio is a good thing because most of the time those filters are to compensate for usually cheap circuit design.


Filters are there to get rid of the staircase waveforms that were mentioned earlier, so as to get more natural sound... recreation filters are what they're called. As everyone have noticed, I'm not fond of them :P

by on (#61352)
The music I'll filter the most is GBA music... I dunno about you, but listening to unfiltered 5Khz music? MEH.

by on (#61471)
Bregalad wrote:
tokumaru wrote:
Everyone says the SNES has better sound than the MD/Genesis but I find SNES sounds terribly muffled most of the time, like they're sampled at very low rates...

Sounds like a made-up argument of a biased Saga fanboy who refuses to admit that the Super NES is like 10 times superior to his beloved Sega genesis in therms of graphics & sound (sorry couldn't resist...)

Okay some SNES games sounds bad this is a fact, but it's all their fault for using bad samples.


What, like Super Mario World and other "Nintendo" driver based games?

by on (#61494)
Yes exactly, SMW is the example of a game using lame samples, but it's not alone. Zelda III uses really bad samples although it has really good music. It could probably sound 10 times better with the same hardware. There is also many non-Nintendo games who falls in this category too. (Soul Blazer is one who made my ears bleed).

by on (#61516)
Also.. another genesis soundtrack that doesn't particularly sound like others is Super Bomberman 5.

by on (#61518)
RushJet1 wrote:
Also.. another genesis soundtrack that doesn't particularly sound like others is Super Bomberman 5.


Genesis? Do you mean SNES?

by on (#61534)
The only Nintendo game I could think of that has "genuine" sound for a SNES game is Winter Gold. Yeah, I know it shamefully wasn't released everywhere but still it counts.

by on (#61538)
tomaitheous wrote:
RushJet1 wrote:
Also.. another genesis soundtrack that doesn't particularly sound like others is Super Bomberman 5.


Genesis? Do you mean SNES?


Yeah i mean SNES. I was listening to the Genesis one when I wrote that comment, so I must've gotten mixed up.

by on (#61617)
Super Turrican has an excellent soundtrack. Especially world 2, where the soundtrack features an awesome sounding piano.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6gW975XDwA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HzPrsjJi ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwaTdxHU4l8

The instruments sound nice and crisp. It's also one of those rare SNES games which are in Dolby Surround.

by on (#61619)
I think both FM and PCM have their own individual strengths and weaknesses. If given to the right composer, both SNES and Genesis can produce awesome music. FM however has the problem that it's VERY EASY to screw up. Many lesser tunes on the Genesis sound bad because the instruments are distorted. This is the result of a lazy composer, unwilling to spend the time which is needed to deliberately fine-tune the parameters.

If there is one company which could handle practically every sound chip very well, it's Konami.

by on (#61624)
6502freak wrote:
If there is one company which could handle practically every sound chip very well, it's Konami.

Not every. Konami didn't do so hot on DDR GB. Suffice it to say that Konami's 8-bit version of "Butterfly" sounded less like the original version than mine did.

by on (#61627)
tepples wrote:
6502freak wrote:
If there is one company which could handle practically every sound chip very well, it's Konami.

Not every. Konami didn't do so hot on DDR GB. Suffice it to say that Konami's 8-bit version of "Butterfly" sounded less like the original version than mine did.


Konami did lots of great Game Boy soundtracks in the early 90's. Maybe they got a bit sloppy in the late 90's/early 00's, but when it comes to classic (1983-1995) video game tunes, Konami is on my absolute top list. Notable Game Boy soundtracks from Konami:

- Skate or Die - Bad'n Rad
- TMNT - Fall of the Foot Clan
- TMNT 2
- Motocross Maniacs
- Parodius
- Tiny Toon Adventures

When it comes to sound, Konami did amazing jobs on so many platforms. From their own arcade games, which have killer soundtracks (and up to 4 different soundchips for one single game (TMNT)) to almost every 8 and 16 Bit console.

Btw, great job on the tune!

by on (#61628)
tepples wrote:
6502freak wrote:
If there is one company which could handle practically every sound chip very well, it's Konami.

Not every. Konami didn't do so hot on DDR GB. Suffice it to say that Konami's 8-bit version of "Butterfly" sounded less like the original version than mine did.


they were talking about this over at the sms forums awhile back and I did an SMS cover: http://www.smspower.org/forums/download ... be31157453