Poor nathanpc, catchin so much flack for his non-announcement announcement.
Brazillians. That's all I have to say.
koitsu wrote:
Brazillians. That's all I have to say.
Yeah, brazilians... they can't do anything right! XD
The United States is corrupt,
Brazil more so. Otherwise, for example, it wouldn't have almost prohibitive tariffs on consumer electronics imports. So one thing Brazilians can't do is vote in a less corrupt government.
(I'd really like to know what MarioLeaf is, but if people want to talk about Brazilians, I can split this.)
Pretty interesting corruption graphic there... To me it's no surprise that Brazil is corrupt as shit.
Back on topic: I'm getting pretty curious about MarioLeaf myself. Maybe that's Nathan's plan, to get everyone interested before actually announcing something. That could backfire though, if the actual project doesn't live up to the expectations...
Quote:
The United States is corrupt, Brazil more so. Otherwise, for example, it wouldn't have almost prohibitive tariffs on consumer electronics imports.
My country is #5 on the list and still have prohibitive tariffs too so I don't think this is related. (and I bet someone has been corrupted to cheat to get that high on the list :p )
Quote:
The United States is corrupt, Brazil more so. Otherwise, for example, it wouldn't have almost prohibitive tariffs on consumer electronics imports. So one thing Brazilians can't do is vote in a less corrupt government.
I have no idea how the U.S. placed so high on that list. Noone who has listened to the debates in the U.S. congress can seriously believe that the average congress(wo)man acts in the best interest of the country or even his/her state/district. They rely on huge amounts of money from corporate donors - sometimes funneled through organizations like the Chamber of Commerce in order to hide the source, and spend much of their time in office raising funds for the next campaign. And once out of office they go straight to one of those companies and cash in by becoming a lobbyist or CEO or board member.
And the courts at the state level are even worse, since they don't get as much attention.
If I was a voter in Brazil (or Chile, or Guatemala, or Nicaragua, ...) I'd probably be a bit paranoid about who I voted for, considering the history of dictatorships and far-right extremism - which, btw the U.S. was a big supporter of since they didn't want to see any nation or group of nations in the hemisphere gaining true independence from the U.S. and controlling their own resources and policies.
</crazy leftist rant>
koitsu wrote:
Poor nathanpc, catchin so much flack for his non-announcement announcement.
Brazillians. That's all I have to say.
- The American Pie. That's all I have to say... for now. ^_^;;
mic_ wrote:
Quote:
The United States is corrupt, Brazil more so. Otherwise, for example, it wouldn't have almost prohibitive tariffs on consumer electronics imports. So one thing Brazilians can't do is vote in a less corrupt government.
I have no idea how the U.S. placed so high on that list. Noone who has listened to the debates in the U.S. congress can seriously believe that the average congress(wo)man acts in the best interest of the country or even his/her state/district.
I don't find it too surprising, considering that there are only a handful of very large corporations that control virtually all the mass media (other than the internet). Apparently, most people won't bother trying to figure out what's really going on, when they're constantly being updated over the radio, newspapers, and television with the latest sanitized propaganda.
those corporations (or more like one corporation in reality) control the parts of the internet anybody actually reads as well.
I just got to this thread, and by the end of it I was laughing hysterically. You guys crack me up.
RONALDO SHOOT AM GOAL
koitsu wrote:
RONALDO SHOOT AM GOAL
- Err, he's not scoring many goals like before... heh. ^_^;;
tepples wrote:
The United States is corrupt,
Brazil more so. Otherwise, for example, it wouldn't have almost prohibitive tariffs on consumer electronics imports. So one thing Brazilians can't do is vote in a less corrupt government.
I don't know how we got into politics, but here we go.
Raising import taxes is not related to corruption, actually it usually is the opposite.
You raise taxes to boost domestic production.
One of the most corrupt presidents in our (Argentina's) recent history,
Menem opened the way to import and free trade. We're still suffering the consecuences.
Import taxes are an imposition on a private exchange between two consenting parties. That's corruption. Also, it reduces domestic production by reducing the efficiency of things, limiting access to outside resources, and reducing ability to specialize. If it really helped, breaking every family into its own isolated unit would really boost production, with each family producing its own food, clothing, computers, and music!
Blargg, I assume you're american, I don't blame you, it's logical that you think that way. But that are exactly the arguments of free trade. Not everyone thinks free trade and capitalism are the best options.
And there's no such thing as a private exchange between two consenting parties when talking about trade, the state can and does act upon trade of its citizens. Of course free market states that this shouldn't happen, but that's not the only correct and possible view of world politics and economics.
And I don't agree with your definition of corruption. For me, corruption is when someone that was given power by the people to make their lives better, instead of doing that, uses that power for another interests, usually his/her own or the interests of corporations. If imposing rules over trade is positive to a country's economy, it's far from corruption.
You may think that free trade is always better to any economy, but history proves that's not true always.
Even wealthy capitalist countries do protect their domestic economies with subsidies and taxes. And not always free trade and tax free imports assure better quality, they sometimes just provide cheaper costs at the expense of reducing the countries job offers. ( "Made in Taiwan" rings any bells? )
Free trade as a general concept isn't bad. Allowing goods to flow freely and be produced where it's most efficient sounds really nice, and in a utopian world it would work perfectly.
In reality it comes with some problems because it picks winners and losers in a very harsh, and sometimes unfair way. Another party can flood your market with cheap goods, thereby driving domestic producers out of business. This can be problematic since 1) those domestic producers will now have to find another livelihood, which takes time, 2) your domestic market now depends heavily on imports, and 3) it may not make sense from an environmental point of view.
You've also got a situation where companies can export the labor and import the produced goods back home cheaply, which puts a lot of pressure on the domestic work force and drives down wages.
I agree. It's not bad as long as two similar economies are involved.
But free trade between Developed and Developing countries ( a nice euphemism for poor countries ) had pretty bad results in the 20th and 21st centuries so far.
mic_ wrote:
Another party can flood your market with cheap goods, thereby driving domestic producers out of business.
I agree 100%.
In the US imported goods
HAVE to be artificially marked up or else it would devestate our economy. Our higher regulations and wage laws make the cost of production much, much higher than that of other countries *cough*China*cough*
If imported goods could be purchased for a quarter of the price of domestic goods,
nobody would buy domestic, and companies would be folding left and right.
If anything, I think imported goods and outsourced jobs should be taxed/penalized even more to encourage/push companies to keep labor and production in-house.
But then that turns into a fine line. We have to form relationships with other countries, and it's give and take. If we start unreasonably taxing the hell out of import shipments, they'll start taxing the hell out of our stuff, and it will bring international trade to a standstill.
Petruza wrote:
You raise taxes to boost domestic production.
But did it have the intended effect of promoting the construction of IC fabs in Brazil and Argentina?
mic_ wrote:
it may not make sense from an environmental point of view.
Then tax based on the estimated pollutants, not the MSRP of the good.
Disch wrote:
Our higher regulations and wage laws make the cost of production much, much higher than that of other countries *cough*China*cough*
That and land costs more.
tepples wrote:
Petruza wrote:
You raise taxes to boost domestic production.
But did it have the intended effect of promoting the construction of IC fabs in Brazil and Argentina?
Sorry I don't know what "IC fabs" means
integrated circuit fabrication plants
No, but you can't expect very good results on such a screwed up economy as ours. I don't say that the state intervening in economy is a magic cure, but I strongly object that state intervention in foreign trade equals corruption.
I guess I meant that government itself is almost by definition corrupt, in the way it interferes with voluntary exchanges of private property. BTW, I wasn't saying anything positive about the US; it too is not a free market, and full of government controls over private exchanges.
A "free market" is a positive thing? Not in my book.
Government control is necessary to prevent abusive employers and monopolizing.
Take out governmental regulations and we're back to the industrial revolution where 3 companies run the entire country and everyone is poverty stricken, slaving away for pennies a day, and dying in their 30s.
A lot of people think government control is a bad thing, but really there are some areas where it really is a great thing. Economic issues and international trade are definately areas where the government should always be involved.
TOO MUCH government control can of course be a bad thing. The key is finding the right balance. While I can't say that the US is perfect (or even the best out there), I can say that it's not terrible and there are lots of places where it's much, much worse.
But there's no "perfection" line. What seems like a perfect balance for someone will seem too unfair to someone else. So whatever.
blargg wrote:
... corrupt, in the way it interferes with voluntary exchanges of private property...
We still have two very different concepts of what is corruption.
My view is more similar to Wikipedia's
wikipedia wrote:
# Political corruption: the abuse of public power, office, or resources by government officials or employees for personal gain, e.g. by extortion, soliciting or offering bribes.
Government interference in a market is called
distortion. Copyright is an example of a distortion that was intended to be positive but hasn't always turned out so well, due in part to the movie industry's control over the major news media and in part to (alleged)
gratuities paid by employees of motion picture publishers to legislators' reelection campaigns. Corruption is government action in exchange for a gratuity; it gets confused with distortion because corruption usually causes distortion.
tepples wrote:
Government interference in a market is called
distortion...
I agree.
But again, a distortion is a displacement from a normal state. It depends on what we see as normal or ideal. Imposing trading rates by the state is indeed a distortion
from a free, unregulated market. That's a distortion
if we consider free market as the normal state, as the ideal, as how things should be.
Someone could instead see that a few private dominant corporations controlling the market and setting its prices, is a distortion.
What's any of this got to do with the number of NES-addicted weirdos from Brazil (present company excluded)? :D
NES addiction comes from tariffs distorting the market so as to make everything but famiclones cost prohibitive. That's why it seems there are a brazilian of them.
Well, one thing led to another, lots of off-topic, if you read the whole thread you'll understand
tepples wrote:
NES addiction comes from tariffs distorting the market so as to make everything but famiclones cost prohibitive. That's why it seems there are a brazilian of them.
LOL
Brazillion, I'd suggest. Interesting term
This is tepples practice to split topics where he himself get out of topic... Anyway, high hacking an uninteresting topic (the left annoucement) with another (politics...) isn't bothering to me.
Bregalad wrote:
Anyway, high hacking an uninteresting topic (the left annoucement) with another (politics...) isn't bothering to me.
What? Is someone hacking the forum?
No hacking, just
hijacking.
Have a
George W. Bush joke. I've got a brazilian of them.
I know what a hijack is, but he clearly said "high hacking".
The joke is kinda bleh... I'd like to hear the other brazillion-1 please.
Yes I am also agree to that the Brazilians are the most corrupted amon the South American Countries.They really do the fraud in paying taxes and they all are also interested in such goverment that allows all this stuffs.
Petruza wrote:
I agree. It's not bad as long as two similar economies are involved.
But free trade between Developed and Developing countries ( a nice euphemism for poor countries ) had pretty bad results in the 20th and 21st centuries so far.
del Mercosur ni hablemos... ultimamente juntas una piedra del piso y dice "Made in Brazil" jajajaj no ofense!
Zepper wrote:
koitsu wrote:
RONALDO SHOOT AM GOAL
- Err, he's not scoring many goals like before... heh. ^_^;;
o gordo! ^^ he's a little fatty now, but he was such an awesome player...
and now the big question: Maradona or Pele!? ^^