Hi. I know this is going to be a flaming thread, and I apologies in advance.
Facts :
- People comes very regularly to the Nesdev formus creating a new account for the sole purpose to ask how they make a booleg of their faviouite NES or even SNES game
You see a DAMN LOT of threads like "hello I'm a total noob but I want to make myself a *** cartridge, how do I do that ?" such as
this.
- Those people usually leave as soon as they got their answer, and have no apparent interest in NESdev altogether - all they want is a copy of a cart either to sell it or to play it
- They don't even "make it belive" they want to do a dev-cart
- All info for making bootlegs is already widely available arround (such as the Nesdev main page and Nesdev wiki)
- If they want to play their game and care about legality they could buy the game instead
- If they want to play the game and don't care about legality they could just play the ROM instead
- If they want to paly it on real HW at all prices, a powepak is about the same price as an EPROM programmer, but much more user friendly.
- There is a rule on all emulation-based forums that nobody can ask for ROMs or they will get locked threads/warned/banned.
-> I see no reason asking for bootlegs should be tolerated when asking for ROMs isn't. It's pretty much the same thing (getting a copy of a game you didn't own) exept that in the bootleg's case they are able to sell it (not that they will, but they *could*), while nobody risks to sell a ROM.
Therefore I propose a poll, if we should introduce a rule that people who ask for bootlegs will see their topic locked and will be warned, like people who would ask for ROMs. Of course this don't apply to people who ask to modify carts to run their own programs.
Even in the linked thread, you could see that making this repro might lead to the person becoming interested in NES development, and making further things. It's like with people writing emulators, first trying to get their favorite games working, then becoming interested in accuracy for its own sake. Do you have links to more threads from the past showing that people asking for this information are just a drain on this board? Even if they are, locking and banning people might have unintended side-effects that are worse than those of these people being allowed to post and get replies. I just don't see a big problem, and would like some evidence.
Bregalad wrote:
- If they want to play the game and don't care about legality they could just play the ROM instead
ROM hacks are thought to be technically illegal but tolerated, especially on sites like romhacking.net. Playing the ROM does have some drawbacks. For one thing, most PCs that I've seen don't have a composite video output, unlike an NES or a modded Wii, and most people aren't 1. aware of Sewell Direct's VGA to SDTV converter or 2.
willing to put a PC behind the TV.
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- If they want to paly it on real HW at all prices, a powepak is about the same price as an EPROM programmer, but much more user friendly.
As I understand it, PowerPak support for more obscure mappers is still iffy. The topic you linked refers to
Castlevania series games, and any hack based on
Dracula's Curse will need MMC5 support. Even some widely distributed versions of MMC3 for PowerPak have problems where PRG ROM bankswitching registers also control PRG RAM, visible in M.C. Kids and Crystalis.
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- There is a rule on all emulation-based forums that nobody can ask for ROMs or they will get locked threads/warned/banned.
The rules in effect on Nesdev.com currently include the
Parodius.com AUP. Rule 3 already bans distributing infringing copies of non-free video games.
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Of course this don't apply to people who ask to modify carts to run their own programs.
But at what point do we draw the line between "their own programs" and a bootleg? Total conversion hacks of commercial games? Homebrew games using commercial game sprites as placeholders?
I've thought more about this, and banning/locking is a drastic approach that should only be used when the person/thread is a significant threat/drain. Using those tools for anything less means everyone is a potential target, which is clearly harmful to a board. Misuse of admin power due to personal distaste for some topics is unhealthy to discussion. Links to ROMs, trolling that starts big flame threads or unrest, or repeated postings that nobody is interested in might qualify for banning/locking. But asking for help with putting EPROMs in a cartridge? That's on-topic. If there are too many people asking, it's a sign that documentation of how to do so needs to be improved, not that threads need to be locked/people banned.
I agree that hacks make this subject more complex. If you can't read Japanese but want to play Japanese RPGs, the only way is to use a hack, and IMO that's a genuine reason to want to make a repro.
You just can't treat all cases the same, because while trying to avoid the people who are trying to make money out of what's not theirs you also get rid of a lot of honest people.
Nothing against him, but the guy who asked how to make a repro with some famicom cart or something had it for sale on NA. I'd feel better if he'd of kept that one to learn and made another, but I doubt that happened. I learned about making repro's and stuff via posting a topic. It made it alot easier, since there's not one guide that brings everything together in one place easily. Once you learn, sure, make them all you want, I'd like people to make at least keep a couple before I'd buy a repro off somebody, too. Do it for yourself first with a game you want and will keep.Then maybe do it for money later if you want a reason to keep doing it since you find some fun in it. (Like me, but I don't make repro's, just more devcarts) Experience also gives a better quality repro.
And if we had more information for repro's and making them that WASN'T the forums and was easy to find, maybe it'd help. If I can, in my free time, I'll put a guide together to finding donor carts, how to make them take EPROM's, etc.
I'd also give it to you guys to add more and take away as you wish. A wiki of sorts. Just a webpage though. I think that'd be nice. Shouldn't be too hard to explain why you need different carts, how the chips inside are different, and stuff. Just getting it all thogether might be a tad hard.
65024U wrote:
If I can, in my free time, I'll put a guide together to finding donor carts, how to make them take EPROM's, etc.
I'd also give it to you guys to add more and take away as you wish. A wiki of sorts. Just a webpage though.
Good deal. Create an account on wiki.nesdev.com and PM me your username there, and I'll help you get started.
I don't think there should be a rule against it, but, I'm not too surprised when these threads don't get answered. Especially because those of us who have been here the longest, have answered these same kind of threads dozens of times before, and it can get tiresome.
I don't care if people make their own carts or whatever, whatever they do is their own problem. Even if people want to sell them, it's best to try to not be judgmental of anyone because of it. In a sense, they're meeting a market demand that no one else will fulfill. In the same way it doesn't make much sense to get shitty at buyers for buying something in the only way it is available..
If a rule like this was enforced, it would only be fair to also ban most discussion of the PowerPak (PiratePak). I seriously can't believe someone would use that exclusively for homebrew development (swapping CF cards is no more convenient than swapping socketed FlashROM, except that it's easier to set up the first time), and clearly it was designed to be the ultimate user-configurable bootleg multicart. As much as I complain about the PowerPak's faults and shortcomings, I have one and I like it for what it is.
I noticed too that RetroUSB recently moved their bootleg carts and homebrew carts into separate categories. That makes things at least look less shady. I know myself, I'm biased towards self-publishing for many reasons, but there is just no way I would have a game of mine released there to be produced and sold alongside bootlegs. But at the same time, my own standard is something that I can only hold myself to, and I can't fault anyone else for doing something they believe in.
Memblers wrote:
swapping CF cards is no more convenient than swapping socketed FlashROM
Walmart* carries CF writers but not DIP flash writers. And you don't need to take that bar off your front-loading NES's cartridge slot. And you don't need to rewire.
Yeah that's pretty much what I meant by it being easier to set up the first time. Instead of using a screw driver to remove socketed chips, use 2 stacked sockets - it gets a good connection but can pop out with less force than a CF card.
For a front-loader, you can put the cart in first, then put the ROMs in afterwards, and not have to remove the cart from the NES. But a toploader is easier all around, with a bare PCB.
I think the thing to do is just not answer these threads if you suspect their intent is something you don't like. As it's been said eventually we all get tired of it and most threads will go unanswered unless someone figures there is good reason to answer.
Memblers wrote:
I seriously can't believe someone would use that (PowerPak) exclusively for homebrew development
I kinda do. My CF card has only a dozen or so pirated games, which I don't ever play. 99% of the times I use my PowerPak it's for development purposes. It's still easier than swapping FlashROMs and using my EPROM programmer. I do believe I'm an exception among PowerPak users though.
tokumaru wrote:
99% of the times I use my PowerPak it's for development purposes. It's still easier than swapping FlashROMs and using my EPROM programmer. I do believe I'm an exception among PowerPak users though.
Likewise here. My cousin, on the other hand, uses his PowerPak mostly for running ROM hacks and a few (J)-only games like Gimmick and Cocoron.
Hate to say it, but this is probably the reason I got into NESDev in the first place (wanted to play FF3 in english on a real NES). I did most of the research myself, and didn't ask anyone anything.
I would like to know what Bregalad has to say now that others have expressed their viewpoints. I'd like to know what he thinks about what everyone has said.
Now, I'm not judging anyone, but it seems that Bregalad opposes to anything that results in a person making money using knowledge acquired in these boards, like Sivak asking for ideas for his next commercial game.
To me, the NES has always been a hobby, and at first it may look wrong that people are making money from it, but it shouldn't be wrong if the person has actually worked hard for that money. Sivak has put a lot of effort in his games, it's not like someone here gave him the entire source code and he just compiled and claimed it was his. Making a full game is a lot of work, and he probably deserves his compensation if others will benefit from the final product.
I do notice that Sivak doesn't give much back to the community though, as I rarely (never?) see him helping others with the knowledge he has, he mostly shows up to ask questions for his own stuff, or to promote said stuff. Since his games aren't free, the least he could offer is free knowledge to newbies, like he got from us.
As for bootlegs, like it's been said, there is a market. If there are people willing to pay for such products, that means they are not capable (or willing) to make these carts themselves, and it's good that someone else is selling what they want to have. No harm done if both parties are happy, I guess. A big problem would be people selling these repros as something they are not, like rare prototypes or something, there is no excuse for that.
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I kinda do. My CF card has only a dozen or so pirated games, which I don't ever play. 99% of the times I use my PowerPak it's for development purposes. It's still easier than swapping FlashROMs and using my EPROM programmer.
Same here. I use mostly emulators on my PC to play games, which prevents me to get graphical glitches or random freezes, which happens frequently enough on the real NES. For this reason I don't understand why people insist so much to play games on real hardware. Also allows for cool graphical filters (NTSC if you want it close to the real thing, or hq2x if you want the graphics improved, and allows me to play them 60Hz with sound (I have a 50Hz console, and a 60Hz console on which sound doesn't work, I use both mostly to "make sure my stuff works on real HW", but also sometimes play games for fun).
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For one thing, most PCs that I've seen don't have a composite video output, unlike an NES or a modded Wii, and most people aren't 1. aware of Sewell Direct's VGA to SDTV converter or 2. willing to put a PC behind the TV.
And ? Is that a problem ? Waht's wrong with playing games with a PC and a keyboard ?
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Now, I'm not judging anyone, but it seems that Bregalad opposes to anything that results in a person making money using knowledge acquired in these boards, like Sivak asking for ideas for his next commercial game.
That's pretty right. Sivak's stuff has already been debated and I don't want to go all over it again. However I'm offended he "kindly" ask helps to make games, we take the trouble and time to answer him, then he comes back advertising and selling, and that this is tolerated.
As toku said, he never helped anyone once in this board.
I'm more against lazy people who have no apparent interest in NESdev just make useless thread for this (whenever this is to sell them or play them themselves) than against the bootlegs themselves. I made myself a few (3) bootlegs, but I never use them so I realized that I just wasted games for nothing (of course if the original game is bad this isn't a problem). This is also a reason I'm against all of this, if you don't sell the bootleg, you are amazed that you did it and play it maybe 3 times then it all goes to waste. I killed one of them to make a true devkart (with sockets) instead, and that way it became somewhat useful.
I vowed to never answer any of Sivak's questions or anyone who ask for illegitimate bootlegs again, but it doesn't prevent other people to answer them. There is a whole load of people submitting those forums for bootlegs alone. 5 years ago or so it was a whole new things, and people (including myself) were very exited with them. But now for some reason I think there is way too much people asking for them.
Like in the early 2000s you could go anywhere and ask for ROMs this wasn't a problem. But it quicly became a problem, and so this was banned from all forums.
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I don't think there should be a rule against it, but, I'm not too surprised when these threads don't get answered. Especially because those of us who have been here the longest, have answered these same kind of threads dozens of times before, and it can get tiresome.
As you said, it can get pretty tiresome.
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I just don't see a big problem, and would like some evidence.
It can lead to
this.
Bregalad wrote:
For this reason I don't understand why people insist so much to play games on real hardware.
Why run your own games on an NES?
To make sure they work on an NES.
Why run others' games on an NES?
I know of several reasons:
- TVs tend to be bigger than the monitors ordinarily sold with computers. It's possible to connect a PC to an HDTV, but statistically nobody has actually done it.
- An NES run through a CRT SDTV has less lag than an emulated NES run through a computer monitor. I know of one boxing game where this is critical.
- An NES puts out less noise and heat than a desktop PC.
- An NES starts up faster than a PC, even if you have to go through the PowerPak menu.
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And ? Is that a problem ? Waht's wrong with playing games with a PC and a keyboard ?
It's painful to crowd two people around a keyboard. The muscle memory is all different, meaning that your control scheme that works wonderfully on a keyboard ends up clumsy on a controller or vice versa.
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As toku said, he never helped anyone once in this board.
If anything, he helped by demonstrating a market for software for obsolete consoles.
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Like in the early 2000s you could go anywhere and ask for ROMs this wasn't a problem. But it quicly became a problem, and so this was banned from all forums.
It might not be that as much as the fact that in late 2000, a court in at least one major market decided that linking to infringing copies of copyrighted works is considered contributory copyright infringement. See
what Wikipedia has to say about this. Making bootlegs, on the other hand, is a skill that applies equally to homebrew and to piracy until the courts say otherwise.
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That and
this. The three sites (gamereproductions, nesreproductions, and retrousb) appear to sell ROM hacks and other unreleased games. But if you want to shut them down, you can always notify the copyright owners of the games being reproduced.
NESreproductons makes no profit, and clearly states the cartridges as fake, as opposed to gamereproductions. That is a huge difference to me.
There is also people who individually sell bootlegs on ebay or a similar site - often as if it was the real thing.
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It might not be that as much as the fact that in late 2000, a court in at least one major market decided that linking to infringing copies of copyrighted works is considered contributory copyright infringement.
If downloading a backup of a game you don't have is an infringement, then writing a game you don't have on a cartridge is a squared infringement. Not only you have to do the former infingement in order to do that, but also, if you add a fake label to the bootleg, it creates a fake cartridge, which, if sold, is a scam.
So it's at least the same infringement as if the ROM were downloaded, and possibly worse. Which I don't understand why it's more tolerated than just downloading ROMs. I'm not in a it's good/it's bad debate (I know it can be good to destroy a bad game to put a better game on it) but more in a tolerated / not tolerated debate.
Bregalad wrote:
If downloading a backup of a game you don't have is an infringement, then writing a game you don't have on a cartridge is a squared infringement.
If I tear up an Ice Hockey to make a BombSweeper, or I tear up a Tetris (Nintendo version) or I Can Remember to make a Concentration Room+LJ65 multicart, whose copyright am I infringing? And because most game PCBs use either Nintendo mask ROM pinout or JEDEC pinout, the instructions to reproduce a homebrew game will closely resemble those to reproduce a non-free commercial game.
As for giving instructions specific to a specific non-free commercial game, that's not clearly legit. But you might be seeing a difference in legal tradition between that in your country and that in the home of Parodius Networking. Here in the United States,[1] we operate under a legal system descended from English common law rather than a legal system descended from the Napoleonic Code. Under the common law, the courts make law by filling in gaps left by legislators. When a court decides a case, it can make a rule, called a "precedent", which lower courts in the same judicial circuit must follow when deciding future cases with similar facts. In effect, this makes case law as powerful as statutes if not more powerful.
I'm guessing repro instructions are more tolerated because nobody has yet got in trouble for giving instructions that apply to substantial non-infringing uses (in this case homebrew) just as well as they apply to clear infringement, and the Supreme Court of the United States has set a precedent to look favorably on substantial non-infringing uses.
[1] Louisiana state law is based on French law. But all 49 other states and the federal government use common law, and copyright is federal.
tokumaru wrote:
but it shouldn't be wrong if the person has actually worked hard for that money
It's not wrong if he's not misleading anyone. Even if he doesn't work hard, he's providing a service to people. That they are paying proves it. So what if it comes easy to him? The question is simply whether it adds value.
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I do notice that Sivak doesn't give much back to the community though, as I rarely (never?) see him helping others with the knowledge he has, he mostly shows up to ask questions for his own stuff, or to promote said stuff. Since his games aren't free, the least he could offer is free knowledge to newbies, like he got from us.
I see plenty of value he's added. He's shown that if one has the discipline and determination, one can make games and sell games that regulars here like. To know that it's possible is valuable to others considering trying. And who says he has the time to successfully make these games
and post a lot to the boards? I've seen several lengthy threads he's started about game mechanics, so he's clearly not a net drain that you imply. The idea that one must contribute in return only applies if one is using up something limited. I don't see that occurring.
blargg wrote:
He's shown that if one has the discipline and determination, one can make games and sell games that regulars here like. To know that it's possible is valuable to others considering trying.
That was probably an unplanned consequence, I don't think that was intentional.
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And who says he has the time to successfully make these games and post a lot to the boards?
I was gonna suggest that in my last post: One of the reasons he gets things done could be that he doesn't spend as much time here as some of us who haven't completed projects.
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I've seen several lengthy threads he's started about game mechanics, so he's clearly not a net drain that you imply.
That's the whole idea behind internet forums I guess, the fact that archived discussions could help people with similar issues in the future. You can only screw that up if you are one of those people who ask for help using private messages.
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The idea that one must contribute in return only applies if one is using up something limited. I don't see that occurring.
I think that the support we regular posters offer is limited. We're not all going to stick around forever... Some of us will surely lose interest in NES development, others will get pissed for unknown reasons and vanish from the boards (like Quietust). I think it's important that the people we spend time helping continue the tradition of helping others.
- The available NES tech info is in the wiki. It's very additive to create your own NES games and get them running in a NES, at your own risk. We can't be responsible about how you will get the things running, homebrew or copyrighted titles. In other words, you should be able to figure out the proper schematics of a new cartridge, as we're not supposed to support piracy of the big N games.
- In short words: do yourself, we cannot take any responsability for the misuse of such informations. That's me anyway.
tokumaru wrote:
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The idea that one must contribute in return only applies if one is using up something limited. I don't see that occurring.
I think that the support we regular posters offer is limited. We're not all going to stick around forever... Some of us will surely lose interest in NES development, others will get pissed for unknown reasons and vanish from the boards (like Quietust). I think it's important that the people we spend time helping continue the tradition of helping others.
Good point about "milking" those of us while we're still interested, though I think unless it's made into something (put in the Wiki), it becomes less useful over time as mere postings in threads. There's so much noise mixed in the forums (not that it can be improved; that's the nature of discussion).
Bregalad wrote:
NESreproductons makes no profit, and clearly states the cartridges as fake, as opposed to gamereproductions. That is a huge difference to me.
You can't be that stupid about repros, are you? nesreproductions.com charges $25 per repro, and the buyer has to supply the donor cart. His cost is 1 or 2 ROM chips ($2-6), a label ($1), shipping ($2-5) and about 15 minutes of time. Not even close to $25. He absolutely makes profit on every cart sold.
The word "fake" isn't anywhere on the website. Where is it "clearly stated"?
You forgot the cost of operating the site, the labor in doing the ROM swap, handling repairs, etc. Not that it matters; if people pay for the service, then it's obviously worth more than $25 to the buyer, otherwise he wouldn't have preferred the service over keeping his $25.
Operating the site will be negligible per cart. The labor is already included in the 15 minutes of time. Handling repairs is also almost nothing per cart. Even if those were significant they would also apply to gamereproductions.com who has similar costs and profits. They both make a profit and both are not up front about the legalities, just like all repro sites.
I guess I don't understand your objections. Is there a place that offers the same service more cheaply? For someone interested in using his services, what legal issues does he have to deal with? (I'm not asking about legal issues the operator of the service has to deal with, but those the buyer has to deal with).
See the quoted section from Bregalad? Both parts of his statement are completely false. That is the objection. For someone who hates profit makers as much as him he sure is ignorant about the cost of reproductions.
I think Bregalad isn't against profit itself, but rather people who don't seem to provide any service and attempt to hide their profiteering activities. That site, nesreproductions, is clear on exactly what he does, and he specifically puts indicators in the reproductions so that they won't be mistaken for original rare prototypes, which I take is one reason Bregalad approves. Only Bregalad can tell us for sure though.
The NESReproductions site, LeonK as I recall, is pretty straight forward and I don't think anyone should have a big problem with it. I really doubt he's making tons of money from it. That GameReproductions site though sells the games for quite a bit more if I recall and perhaps is raking in profit on each bootleg sold.
blargg wrote:
I think Bregalad isn't against profit itself, but rather people who don't seem to provide any service and attempt to hide their profiteering activities.
They both provide the same service, with about the same profit. Compare the games they have in common and you will see a small difference in price. That is easily accounted for by the donor needed.
blargg wrote:
and he specifically puts indicators in the reproductions so that they won't be mistaken for original rare prototypes
No he doesn't. The labels and ROMs say absolutely nothing about being reproductions. All still use the company logos, Nintendo seal of quality, etc. Only RetroUSB has things that say "reproduction" (NWC) and has their own seal of quality.
Then you're claiming he's flat out lying in his FAQ:
NESReproductions FAQ wrote:
To discourage scammers my URL and reproduction cost is permanently marked inside the cart. This way, if you scam someone, they can find out, and report you to eBay, Paypal and/or their credit card company. Be warned. Also, if I find out you're using my services to scam others, you will be added to my "black list" and I will never sell reproductions to you again.
No, I'm claiming that doesn't matter. Once the cart is open the chips on the board give it away, so gamereproductions is doing the same indication of it not being a prototype. Real protection against that would be put on the outside of the cartridge where a buyer would see it.
ibeenew2 wrote:
blargg wrote:
I think Bregalad isn't against profit itself, but rather people who don't seem to provide any service and attempt to hide their profiteering activities.
They both provide the same service, with about the same profit. Compare the games they have in common and you will see a small difference in price. That is easily accounted for by the donor needed.
Perhaps for some games they are similar in price. But that doesn't necessarily mean they are similar in profit. And I'm not sure if GR including shipping costs, where as I think NR does?
Also here is a perfect example of GameReproductions having issues.
http://www.gamereproductions.com/produc ... Holy-Diver
Holy Diver, uses a custom Irem mapper. The only game that has this mapper, is a legit famicom Holy Diver cartridge. We know he is not making them by using legit cartridges. Instead, he is using MY mapper hack to MMC1. True I put it out there for anyone to use, but my point is that he is irresponsible because my hack of that game is actually broken. But he'll happily sell you a broken game I'm sure as he likely has no idea. I overlooked/didn't notice that my mapper hack for that game was broken when I released it. It seemed to be working ok but it's actually messed up.
And as far as RetroUSB, they make it clear as day that you are buying a non-original cartridge. It doesn't try to look like a legit cartridge at all. Best of all those games are new parts, not scavenged.
MottZilla wrote:
Best of all those games are new parts, not scavenged.
Considering that lots of this would end up in landfills otherwise (most people don't bother recycling plastics unless it's costing them to throw it away, and who needs a thousand copies of SMB/DH or some common LJN games?), I think it's good to recycle the old parts whenever possible.
Well that's a fair point. But I don't believe that sometimes games with much more limited runs are "recycled" or destroyed in the attempt to recycle them.
I can't say I really am that concerned about it though. Just wondering when the day will come that games that were once very common are all gone. While I suppose it would happen anyway it's only going to be accelerated by these things. Though if people take care in only recycling some of the most terrible games to have been produced, ones that hardly anyone can stand to play, that wouldn't be so bad.
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Just wondering when the day will come that games that were once very common are all gone.
Basic economics: if the common games were heavily used for repros, at some point they would become uncommon, at which point their price would rise to a point making them uneconomical for repros, and making new parts more economical, or at least making
other once-less-common-but-now-more-common carts more economical to use.
I see your point, blargg. But at some point, repros and the parts to make them (such as parallel flash and parallel SRAM) will become cost prohibitive, as will maintaining an authentic NES to run them. By then, objections to using an emulator to play hacks and translations will likely have vanished, and for original games, just developing for a portable API (such as SDL, Allegro, or Android) will become the cheapest way to get an
NES-style game in front of your players. Consider that Eversion and IWBTG were both developed for PCs.
Memblers wrote:
Considering that lots of this would end up in landfills otherwise (most people don't bother recycling plastics unless it's costing them to throw it away, and who needs a thousand copies of SMB/DH or some common LJN games?), I think it's good to recycle the old parts whenever possible.
If the repro makers are getting their carts from places like outbidding others on eBay, then no the carts used were not headed to the landfills. I doubt they are going through trash cans to find the donors.
MottZilla wrote:
It seemed to be working ok but it's actually messed up.
(OT) What is messed up with the game? I didn't see any information on your website or included with the hack, so nobody may know there are problems.
ibeenew2 wrote:
If the repro makers are getting their carts from places like outbidding others on eBay, then no the carts used were not headed to the landfills. I doubt they are going through trash cans to find the donors.
But I'd bet that eBay gets its NES Game Pak listings, especially for D and F rarity games, from 1. people selling a box with dozens of carts for $2 per cart or less, and 2. people who frequent rummage sales where grandmas clear out "old Nintendo tapes".
blargg wrote:
Even in the linked thread, you could see that making this repro might lead to the person becoming interested in NES development, and making further things. It's like with people writing emulators, first trying to get their favorite games working, then becoming interested in accuracy for its own sake. Do you have links to more threads from the past showing that people asking for this information are just a drain on this board? Even if they are, locking and banning people might have unintended side-effects that are worse than those of these people being allowed to post and get replies. I just don't see a big problem, and would like some evidence.
Well for one thing, anyone with real intelligence would use a dev cart. I mean, it's not hard to figure out that they exist, or even where to buy them. These people are not intelligent and thus, they want it explained to them. They want nothing else but to destroy game carts to sell illegal repros. Particularly with translated ROM hacks. That's the new trend in black market gaming, if you haven't noticed.
So yeah, blacking out the information to these unintelligent types will slow down the growth of illegal game markets. These persons are all extroverts, or else they would take the time and energy to read the existing material. They don't care to learn it by their own energy, just to have it taught to them so that they can compete in this emerging black market. I know the type... I've had a lot of experience with them. All they care about is getting in on the profitable trend. No one who would disassemble a cart without reading the material first (or taking the time to make real emotional connections over IRC while learning it there) would care to contribute back to the community. There is just no motivation.
Yeah, those guys just come out from nowhere and ask to make bootlegs. Then they just never come again, and have a single digit post count.
I don't think this is interest in NES-dev or even romhacking in any way. At best it's interest to play with hardware, at worst it's just an easy way to make cash.
Some of you just can't understand that, unfortunately, not everyone has good intentions. You said repression is bad etc... which I understand, but if people committing the infringement to make a devcard from a ROM they don't own and sell it for a crazy prize remain not only punished but also not oppressed in any way, and that people say it's good because it gets them interested in development, such a market will explose even more, and there will be more and more people coming here just so ask how to cut 2 traces and add 2 wires, or how to make fake labels, etc...
I'm all against this stuff. If you guys don't want repression I say ok, but then be careful when people with a low post count "kindly" ask for advice to do "make" themselves a game (that they don't own and that is 100% illegal).
Again I can't understand the logic of making it look as if nobody here download ROMs illegaly, if we answer to threads such as those, which doesn't make an "illegal" virtual copy of the game, but an illegal real copy, which is probably twice as worse.
When they sell translations or hack this is even more disgusting as all fan translaters and hackers always mention this is not for sale. If it was it would be illegal anyway as no hacker or translator owns copyrights on any commercial games.
So they basically is a big *** in the ass of the original creators of the game, of the hacker/translator, and of us because we answer questions that shouldn't be asked in the first place.
Bregalad it seems to me that there are two perspectives in favor of the status quo: one that doesn't accept the existence of persistent bad intentions, and another that doesn't see the execution of these intention as necessarily a bad thing or even a dangerous thing.
I highly suspect that people are only buying ROM hack repros because they are confused into thinking that if they buy the bootleg that makes the copy legal. Or maybe they insist on believing that. Whatever the case, the folks at RHDN are up in arms over the practice, which is threatening to turn a lot of their selfless work into cold hard cash for criminals. Bottom line is, the fewer people are involved in this emerging black market, the less the RHDN people are going to be taken advantage of. So if you want to protect your romhacking work you'd start here. DMCA will help in a lot of cases, but it seems like a two-pronged approach would be the most efficient.
But yeah antisocial personality disorder exists... the consensus is that it is environment independent... and even besides all that, times are very, very tough and people are trying to make money any way they can.
ibeenew2 wrote:
MottZilla wrote:
It seemed to be working ok but it's actually messed up.
(OT) What is messed up with the game? I didn't see any information on your website or included with the hack, so nobody may know there are problems.
If anyone actually played the game they would know what is wrong with it. However since I receive no credit or payment for the use of it, I feel no reason to notify anyone about it. Infact I'd be happy if these people pissed off many potential "customers" by selling them Holy Diver. Maybe it would turn people off from buying from such sellers or buying repro bootlegs at all.
@motZilla : What you did unintentionally is awesome. You are right that you shouldn't tell more details.
I unintentionally did something similar, but more minor in my Contra MMC3 hack - that was intended for use for bootlegging long before I started opposition to bootlegging as a whole.
Maybe I should have released my unfinished Gradius II MMC3 hack that wasn't working too so that bootleggers would sell it and stupid people buying them being taught at which point it's bad to buy pirated games ? It had graphical glitches in the second part of world 1, and would freeze randomly around world 3. Would have taught them a lesson, but not to the bootleggers themselves unfortunately.
Quote:
Bregalad it seems to me that there are two perspectives in favor of the status quo: one that doesn't accept the existence of persistent bad intentions, and another that doesn't see the execution of these intention as necessarily a bad thing or even a dangerous thing.
Well I should respect their opinions. But I can assure that the scene of making repros has grown very quickly those last couple of years. There has been nothing like that around years 2004-2007 - people were just not interested in that.
About 2 years ago there was this french guy who told me on this forum to join one forum of their and I was happy to see a forum about stuff in my language. but they were only talking about making bootlegs and ONLY that. With advice for fake labels, etc...
They asked me lots of advice about NES carts, which ones they should destroy to make which games, etc... but I VERY quickly grown tired of it. Seeing such an industry of fake games being created pissed me off and I didn't want to be involved again. Also there was some fights between the guys too because they would steal other's labels to make their bootlegs etc...
Those guys could "make themselves" like dozen and dozen of boolegs without even being tired. They'd make just all transltations, hacks and even originals they don't own. They probably wouldn't feel bad selling them.
It's since this day that I was revealed the existance of such a black market. People who denies this just haven't seen it.
Now it's not up to me to juge whenever this is good or bad, but at the very least it is a copyright infringement, even if for personal use (no selling) as making a boolegs REQUIRES downloading the ROM.
If you use a hack/translation then it's a second infringement, and if you make fake labels, probably a third one. Doesn't sound any good to me.
Quote:
and even besides all that, times are very, very tough and people are trying to make money any way they can.
[completely off topic]Come on, times are constantly being very though since 1980. Actually they have been very though since froever up to 1950, and then again since 1980. Only 30 years of economical euphory and ecological disaster, and 30 more years later people thinks a miracle will occur and that economy will be back to the 50's growth. [/completely off topic]
[offtopic]
Well with 10% unemployment in the U.S., things are much worse here than they were 2 years ago, when there was only 5% unemployment. It's so bad that even Walmart can be discriminating when they hire someone. No employer out there is desperate anymore.[/offtopic]
My point is that bootlegs are apparently profitable and money is scarce, so expect the budding little industry to grow and, consequently, for your hobby to possibly become more expensive the more it does, what with increasingly smaller numbers of $3 carts on Ebay.
I think that what Bregalad is referring to is the "Padme"/abused wife effect where somebody keeps focusing on the good a person might do in spite of the vast amounts of harm they have done and keep doing (or most likely intend to do). I mean sure Darth eventually crossed back over, but was the domination of the entire galaxy really worth it?
Thinking about it, Nintendo has much to gain, long term, from the destruction of existing NES hardware. In fact, were that source of access to old games to disappear, they would need little else except to come down hard on the ROM image distribution scene (via an appropriate copyright bill) to make their virtual console service the only means of inexpensive access to old games.
Bregalad wrote:
I'm all against this stuff.
Then why are you helping coinheaven in the SNES forum? You should be wanting him banned...
I guess I give people the benefit of the doubt. Unless they say what they're doing (it's always helpful when they do), I can't really assume why they're doing it. Maybe they also feel the price of the repro is worth more than their time to build it. Or maybe they just want to play around with molten metals, or give their EPROM eraser a purpose in life. And yeah, it could be to make some easy money with a skilled labor that is apparently in demand. If they don't say, I don't want to assume.
LeonK was mentioned, I remember years ago getting some help from him, and some other folks building reproductions I got some supplies and helpful advice from. NES developers and cart builders could really do a lot to help each other out. Hell, if I published a game that had more demand than I could (or wanted) to build myself, I would be a good option to seek any type of assistance from others who are the most experienced and interested in crafting NES carts. For me though, I wouldn't want my own products to be in a store with (other? haha) products of questionable origin. Eventually I'll open my own little online store. But I've got lots more stuff to develop, first.
Anyways, I'd rather have the info available for anyone to build whatever they want. It's better than having it be all secret and having one big company come in and do the same thing anyways, and obviously Nintendo isn't coming back to the NES (but I'd hope they tell me if they do, heh). There's not going to be much profit with all the competition (unless done on a bigger scale).
ibeenew2 wrote:
If the repro makers are getting their carts from places like outbidding others on eBay, then no the carts used were not headed to the landfills. I doubt they are going through trash cans to find the donors.
I can only speak for myself, but I have bought hundreds of SMB/DH cartridges, for pretty cheap. And maybe a few dozen Major League Baseball, a common LJN sports game (it's got everything going for it, heh). Before I was buying carts to recycle like this (unfortunately, I didn't anticipate a use for them at the time), the list price at the Funcoland store was 9 cents. That's maybe the only time in my life I'll see a store, with a fully stocked shelf of something that costs 9 cents, haha. (other than little pencil erasers or something dumb, but maybe not even at that price)
You were
right: it is becoming a problem. I'll try a new tack: finding how to be snarky while maintaining a civil tone.
Oh man I guess I ruined your strategy because the other thread was above this one. If I knew that I'd have just shut up and let you do it. But oh well it's too late...
-cough cough- Nothing against him as said before, but it seems he asked to do this just for money?
http://www.nintendoage.com/forum/messag ... adid=41878
-pokes the Just Breed game-
Oh well. At least it seems he has done more on his own though so it's not that bad. XD
Hypothetically, what if we found that bunnyboy made the PowerPak just for the money? Would that negate the value of the PowerPak, put it on everyone's blacklist? The question to me has nothing to do with any money being made, but rather whether it adds value to NES development. That is ALL that matters. I don't know why some people here have such a problem with the free market, and the idea that someone somewhere is doing something that others find of value, and is getting paid for it. Fraud is another thing entirely, of course, but I see a lot of focus on things unrelated to that.
I don't really have any problem with it adding to NES Development, I make devcarts too and yeah the powerpak is awesome and he's making money, but it' for development and just so happens to double as a good ROM running tool. But, he used the info you guys gave him just for money, and it contributes nothing towards NESDev. I don't know, Yeah making money is a PLUS for developing stuff and learning all this, but yet, he came here JUST for money and NOT making games and development stuff. I guess I feel like he used you guys and feel bad. I guess if you don't mind though, it's okay then.
tepples wrote:
You were
right: it is becoming a problem. I'll try a new tack: finding how to be snarky while maintaining a civil tone.
Almost 2/3rds say it isn't a problem, but now you have decided it is? The guy you are linking to even did all the research to find out which donor, how to burn chips, what rewiring to use, etc etc etc. How is he a problem? He found the wiki, so if you weren't trying to keep the info a secret to an elite club you could just post it there and refer anyone to it. Fortunately one person was actually helpful instead of just thread crapping.
Yeah, true, and I never said he was the problem. It's just that he used it for money and money only it seems. I don't like that feeling. If I knew anything like that and I was drained for info just for money, I'd feel kind of saddened by such a thing.
And we did't say it's not a problem, the vote just says we shouldn't ban people over it. I voted no bans and the fact that it is a problem is apparent to me at least from that one case.
3gengames wrote:
Yeah, true, and I never said he was the problem. It's just that he used it for money and money only it seems. I don't like that feeling. If I knew anything like that and I was drained for info just for money, I'd feel kind of saddened by such a thing.
I'll let you in on a secret: I only come here and post things because they will bring me enjoyment. So I just use everyone here! :)
Really, if someone is using you but it brings benefit to you, who really cares why they are using you? I guess it is a little sad to not be doing NES stuff for the enjoyment, just trying to make a buck.
Quote:
And we did't say it's not a problem, the vote just says we shouldn't ban people over it. I voted no bans and the fact that it is a problem is apparent to me at least from that one case. :roll:
I agree with you; banning people for things that one finds merely distasteful is a great way to negatively affect
everyone, because everyone is a potential target for this "purification". Banning should only be done when someone is doing something that negatively impacts NES development, and only after being warned. Examples that clearly warrant it are people disrupting threads (we've had a few of those over the years), and things that could result in legal trouble for the board (posting links to ROMs, or trade secrets).
blargg wrote:
Really, if someone is using you but it brings benefit to you, who really cares why they are using you? I guess it is a little sad to not be doing NES stuff for the enjoyment, just trying to make a buck.
Yeah, if somebody makes a game and want to play a prototype, I'd happily help them. If they decide to sell it down the road after they've played it and had their enjoyment, yeah I'm okay with that too. Just not only for money. I would want to help if it also makes the end user enjoyed for something that isn't money, because nostalgia and play your favorite games' prototype is really cool! But making a game for no reason but money is bad. As we all know money is the root of evil....and apparently forum destruction and distrust like here.
I know if you guys didn't help me with pointing me to assemblers, compilers, cart info, etc. I'd not be here and would be missing out on something I enjoy, seeing my programs run on a actual NES. It's part of a dream, making games for an awesome system. It's awesome. And if you guys decided to keep making devcarts and repros secret, I'd be missing out on a ton and I'm sure others would be too. I don't want that to happen, but I don't want it to be out there for fakers, scammers and other people. But sadly it must be for ease of use and thats okay, as long as they don't come to us. I don't look at the guy I linked to as dishonest and such as he did do a large amount of stuff on his own and just had a few questions, but I am using it as an example where what if the same happened but we helped the guy from the ground up. Not just wiring. Explaining board types, ROM's, mappers, etc. I'd be really pissed if that happened, truthfully, even if I didn't give my time to the topic and helping that person.
Blargg does have a great point that he gets enjoyment from just helping anyone, but it's just that it bothers me in a way. But yet I guess it doesn't matter because I lose nothing so it's fine.
When we get a guide that has a better description on how to make a repro and such, I think it'll help a lot. -remembers to work on that later- So yeah I think the key to stopping this is getting more easy to understand info. With maybe a little warning "Don't goto the forums to make Illegal games, only homebrews even though they use this same guide just with a different ROM." or something like that to just tip people off that people can make repro's if they use the guide right. And for everyone that asks, just point to the guide and say "Start off here" and then help after they've put some work into it and learned some stuff about it and then just nudge them along from there. I think that could possibly help with this so it doesn't get bad (started) in the near future.
Quote:
Hypothetically, what if we found that bunnyboy made the PowerPak just for the money?
Once again you're comparing stuff that can't be compared !! Bunnyboy never made annoying threads ! On the other way, many thread of people asking for something like that were made, and eventually he took the situation in hand. The powerpak is a legal development tool, it's not an illegal fake cart !
This has nothing to do with the large flow of people that comes asking how to do fake carts, on the other way arround it makes an argument to have everyone stopping making devcarts as they have no use anymore, unless you want to test your own code with a true mapper which OBVIOUSLY isn't the case of those guys.
Quote:
I voted no bans and the fact that it is a problem is apparent to me at least from that one case.
Quote:
I agree with you; banning people for things that one finds merely distasteful is a great way to negatively affect everyone, because everyone is a potential target for this "purification". Banning should only be done when someone is doing something that negatively impacts NES development, and only after being warned. Examples that clearly warrant it are people disrupting threads (we've had a few of those over the years), and things that could result in legal trouble for the board (posting links to ROMs, or trade secrets).
Oh my god :
I NEVER SAID BAN IN THE VOTE ! I JUST SAID WARNINGS/LOCKING THREAD.
You guys vote without even reading the question ?? Seriously WTF ?
Quote:
Almost 2/3rds say it isn't a problem, but now you have decided it is?
My point was just that if it's repressed to download a ROM, then it should repressed to download a ROM and put it on a cart. This is purely logical. However, it seems people on this board are very careful about not linking any commercial ROMs being afraid of Nintendo coming here and shutting down the site.
HOWEVER Nintendo could also shut down the site if we help people to make fake carts. Maybe I didn't word this well in my original post, and I should apologize for that. Nobody wants Nesdev to go down with something stupid for that, especially since ALL those guys come just to ask questions how to do devcarts and go sell them somewhere else.
Quote:
As we all know money is the root of evil....and apparently forum destruction and distrust like here.
Apparently Blarg is ready to defend anyone who wins money, dirty or not. I guess he thinks that by defending people who earn money a dirty way he would one day be defended back when it would be his turn to earn money. That or maybe he just likes to oppose my for saractic pleasure.
Quote:
Blargg does have a great point that he gets enjoyment from just helping anyone, but it's just that it bothers me in a way. But yet I guess it doesn't matter because I lose nothing so it's fine.
They day Nintendo shoots nesdev down because of legal issues we'll loose
everything.
Bregalad wrote:
Quote:
Hypothetically, what if we found that bunnyboy made the PowerPak just for the money?
Once again you're comparing stuff that can't be compared !!
In several places people have come down on others for doing things in order to make money, as if that makes whatever they're doing bad. Since people tend to approve of the PowerPak, and it is something that is sold for money, it is a useful starting point for a thought experiment, to see how we might respond. It's all part of better understanding
why things bother us, so that we can better take action. If, for example, we found that we were simply against people making money on things, we might examine our own issues rather than take them out on others who don't deserve ill treatment. If, on the other hand, we found that our distaste was due to negative effects on NES development, we would have justification for finding ways of eliminating those effects.
Quote:
Bunnyboy never made annoying threads !
OK, so the problem is that threads annoy you? I'm really confused about your reasons for going against some of the posters, as there never seems to be a clear reason. In my experience, that's a clear sign that the real reason hasn't been identified, and that the seeming reasons are just projections. This doesn't mean that it's just a personal issue, just that whatever the reason is, it hasn't been identified.
Quote:
On the other way, many thread of people asking for something like that were made, and eventually he took the situation in hand. The powerpak is a legal development tool, it's not an illegal fake cart !
You keep using this term, "illegal fake cart". I think I can understand the illegal part, as tepples has helped clarify. But the fake part still doesn't make a lot of sense. If someone is making a repro for personal use, what is fake about it? It has the ROM code on it, it runs in the NES, and it probably doesn't have a proper label. To me a fake is something that is meant to seem like the original, but isn't. Now, if someone tried to make the label look just like the original, then it would be a fake of sorts. If he was selling it and properly informed the buyer that it was a fake, is there a problem in that? Or is the problem when it's passed off as genuine? If so, then you should refer to this as fraudulent, because it is misleading the buyer and defrauding him.
Quote:
This has nothing to do with the large flow of people that comes asking how to do fake carts,
So the problem is the number of people? If it were fewer it wouldn't be an issue? If it's the number of people, then that points to it being about its drain on our resources, not about the legality.
Quote:
on the other way arround it makes an argument to have everyone stopping making devcarts as they have no use anymore, unless you want to test your own code with a true mapper which OBVIOUSLY isn't the case of those guys.
So the problem is that they aren't writing their own code?
Like I said, it's never clear what your real issue is with these people. It seems like you just don't like them, but need to come up with objective reasons to justify wanting to get rid of them
Bregalad wrote:
Quote:
I voted no bans and the fact that it is a problem is apparent to me at least from that one case.
Quote:
I agree with you; banning people for things that one finds merely distasteful is a great way to negatively affect everyone, because everyone is a potential target for this "purification". Banning should only be done when someone is doing something that negatively impacts NES development, and only after being warned. Examples that clearly warrant it are people disrupting threads (we've had a few of those over the years), and things that could result in legal trouble for the board (posting links to ROMs, or trade secrets).
Oh my god :
I NEVER SAID BAN IN THE VOTE ! I JUST SAID WARNINGS/LOCKING THREAD.
You guys vote without even reading the question ?? Seriously WTF ?
Why do you assume we didn't read the question? It's not like we can only discuss exactly what you asked, and are forbidden from talking about related things. We are discussing various responses we could make to people asking how to make repro carts, and banning was one we were talking about.
Quote:
HOWEVER Nintendo could also shut down the site if we help people to make fake carts. Maybe I didn't word this well in my original post, and I should apologize for that. Nobody wants Nesdev to go down with something stupid for that, especially since ALL those guys come just to ask questions how to do devcarts and go sell them somewhere else.
Yes, we should not assist people in things that have no legal uses. But there's no need to go ape-shit when one of the posts; just explain that we won't help and be done with it.
Bregalad wrote:
Quote:
As we all know money is the root of evil....and apparently forum destruction and distrust like here.
Apparently Blarg is ready to defend anyone who wins money, dirty or not. I guess he thinks that by defending people who earn money a dirty way he would one day be defended back when it would be his turn to earn money. That or maybe he just likes to oppose my for saractic pleasure.
Why the fuck are you making person attacks on me? I just don't get it, and at this point, I think it's clear that this issue is going to cause some major repercussions of who continues visiting this board. The way you seem to operate is that you have these things you have issues with, for whatever reasons, and cannot tolerate other people approaching the issue with an open mind, and seeking the truth of the matter, regardless of what will be found. Because I won't go along with your demonization of them, but rather ask whether they really are the evil bastards you treat them as, you are now attacking me.
I'm not against making money of new carts, but if you do it, atleast put out some new code, not another copyrighted game.
[quote="Bregalad"]
My point was just that if it's repressed to download a ROM, then it should repressed to download a ROM and put it on a cart. This is purely logical. However, it seems people on this board are very careful about not linking any commercial ROMs being afraid of Nintendo coming here and shutting down the site.
HOWEVER Nintendo could also shut down the site if we help people to make fake carts. Maybe I didn't word this well in my original post, and I should apologize for that. Nobody wants Nesdev to go down with something stupid for that, especially since ALL those guys come just to ask questions how to do devcarts and go sell them somewhere else.
[quote]
So you are also saying anyone posting NSFs should be warned/locked too? Nobody wants Nesdev to disappear because they post copyrighted materials everywhere. Also need to remove any homebrews with copyrighted graphics, or trademarked characters. PowerPak mappers include the FDS BIOS, remove all mention of them too. Somehow I doubt your crusade will extend to those, showing legality is not your actual reason.
Bregalad wrote:
The powerpak is a legal development tool, it's not an illegal fake cart !
That's what she said. The judge didn't believe her.
Nintendo DS flash cards fulfill much the same function as the PowerPak: they allow running code from a microSD card. They allow use of DS homebrew, but the vast majority also allow use of illegally copied commercial DS games. Nintendo managed to convince judges in a couple countries that the homebrew use doesn't justify the piracy use. See
relevant topic on forum.gbadev.org.
Quote:
HOWEVER Nintendo could also shut down the site if we help people to make fake carts.
One of the rules on gbadev.org is don't ask about how to run warez, for precisely this reason. Discussion about commercial games there is
deleted by a moderator. But as of right now, I'd support a weaker rule: if you're new, don't ask about how to make counterfeits. At least attempt to clothe your post in homebrew intent: ask about how to make a homebrew that uses the same board.
Quote:
That or maybe he just likes to oppose my for saractic pleasure.
Did you mean sarcastic or
Socratic? You're right that some people get off on playing
devil's advocate, but it's not always out of bad faith. Pointing out flaws in an argument, even one that you personally support, encourages proponents of the argument to make it stronger.
blargg wrote:
If someone is making a repro for personal use, what is fake about it? It has the ROM code on it, it runs in the NES, and it probably doesn't have a proper label.
A prototype from the NES's commercial era also "has the ROM code on it, it runs in the NES, and it probably doesn't have a proper label." So if people come to make a personal prototype, trying to hide their intent to pass it off in a market as a genuine prototype from the NES's commercial era, that's the fraud that we have to find a way to somehow keep off this board.
ibeenew2 wrote:
PowerPak mappers include the FDS BIOS, remove all mention of them too.
We already ban direct links to the PowerPak mapper archive, though it was originally for a different reason: at the time I noticed the problem, it had full copies of three Mario games, apparently used by bunnyboy for testing hardware before it goes out the door.
As for NSFs, I asked about those before, and there was no consensus to discourage them. If something happens to vgmusic.com or snesmusic.org, on the other hand, I might change my tune.
Well, I like what tepples said above me. Disguise it and only push certain aspects of it strictly. NSF's seem to be fine, I mean, worse comes to worse, convert the NSF's to MP3 and re-upload.
ROM's is different just because it's use able on a cart then can lead to fakes and lots of problems with the Nintendo's usage and us stealing customers from VC because of emulators. I also agree we should be strict on this and anyone who asks might be able to receive help in PM's or even on the forums legally to make a "development cart" for that particular specs for the game.
"I want to make game X"
"Oh, we can't tell you how to do that, it's illegal and not supported by our forums. But if you follow this guide you can make a development cart for making games."
I don't know....so....mods. I think debate has gone on enough and we see every aspect. What should we do to avoid all legal trouble and help users out the most?
Quote:
If something happens to vgmusic.com or snesmusic.org, on the other hand, I might change my tune.
I wouldn't sweat it too much. vgmusic has been up for over a decade. The HVSC has also been available for a very long time, as has Zophar's NSF archive. And there are other examples, like ProjectAY and Project2612, the smspower VGM archive, various MDX archives, etc.
They've had plenty of time to make an issue of these music rips/logs had they wanted to.
3gengames wrote:
NSF's seem to be fine, I mean, worse comes to worse, convert the NSF's to MP3 and re-upload.
Musical works are copyrighted no matter in what format they are stored.
Quote:
"I want to make game X"
"Oh, we can't tell you how to do that, it's illegal and not supported by our forums. But if you follow this guide you can make a development cart for making games."
But don't get
too strict about it, especially in
102(b) cases. Otherwise, you'd have rejected several of tokumaru's topics as "I want to make a counterfeit Sonic" and two of my topics about LJ65 (
1 |
2) as "I want to make a counterfeit Tetяis". Then it would have taken longer to discover and characterize an OAM refresh bug.
Proposed wording: "Don't ask how to make a cartridge from the ROM image of a commercial game or a prototype game from the NES's commercial era. With very few exceptions, it's copyright infringement, and as of 2010, we've seen a lot of people go on to sell them as counterfeit prototypes. If you want to play a translation hack on a TV, then
connect your PC to your TV or use a PowerPak."
But the last time we tried to institute rules specific to nesdev.com/bbs, there was a
backlash.
tepples wrote:
But the last time we tried to institute rules specific to nesdev.com/bbs, there was a
backlash.
Problem is, nobody reads the rules...
mic_ wrote:
Quote:
If something happens to vgmusic.com or snesmusic.org, on the other hand, I might change my tune.
I wouldn't sweat it too much. vgmusic has been up for over a decade.
So has nesreproductions.com. Don't know about gamereproductions.com, but Leon has been around ~12 years with no problems from Nintendo or other copyright holders.
tepples wrote:
we've seen a lot of people go on to sell them as counterfeit prototypes.
Until you have examples that's just a lie.
tokumaru wrote:
tepples wrote:
But the last time we tried to institute rules specific to nesdev.com/bbs, there was a
backlash.
Problem is, nobody reads the rules...
I went to re-read the rules, and they are now missing. But I am contemplating posting about my attempts to sell Fake Korean watches with luxurious furry on them.
blargg wrote:
Hypothetically, what if we found that bunnyboy made the PowerPak just for the money? Would that negate the value of the PowerPak, put it on everyone's blacklist? The question to me has nothing to do with any money being made, but rather whether it adds value to NES development. That is ALL that matters.
Well I think the point to make is that making bootlegs doesn't add any value to NES development. It's just the creation of a bootleg and the possible destruction of parts in limited supply. The PowerPAK is in another category than just a reproduction. The PowerPAK can be used for both piracy as well as legitimate development. Bootlegs are just bootlegs. Asking how to make a bootleg though is the same thing as asking how to potentially put your homebrew onto a cartridge which makes that information being available somewhat legitimate. The problem though is we have good reason to believe that many people that come asking for the information that is already out there, are not developing their own new NES software.
Well Motzilla, that was very well worded.
And I pretty much agree with tepples too. We should somehow get stricter, but without being total bastards of course - that wasn't ever my intentions, and this is why I got angry when people blamed me for wanting to ban people - which I never intended to !! There is a whole load of difference between just being warned and/or see your thread locked (a minor issue) and being banned (which is a major, permanent issue).
Quote:
One of the rules on gbadev.org is don't ask about how to run warez, for precisely this reason. Discussion about commercial games there is deleted by a moderator.
See this is close, but slightly MORE severe, to the locking thread rule I was proposing (but that was rejected).
I'm not angry if it was rejected for any good reason, but I felt like people rejected it without actually understanding what was going on.
Quote:
Did you mean sarcastic or Socratic? You're right that some people get off on playing devil's advocate, but it's not always out of bad faith. Pointing out flaws in an argument, even one that you personally support, encourages proponents of the argument to make it stronger.
I guess that's right, however when somebody SYSTEMACICALLY says things like if I was ALWAYS wrong, I find that a bit irritating.
I can be wrong I don't deny it - but puting arguments in a foregin language isn't really easy, and having them bashed like that isn't very cool.
Apparently, some people here seems like they didn't get the actual reason I oppose people asking questions related to bootlegs / fake carts (they are fake, as opposed to the original released by Nintendo - even if they have no kind of label. Maybe "fake" is not the correct english word, I didn't lear the WHOLE dictionary, if you have anything better please share).
I tried to express all my reasons in the first post of this thread, but maybe I was expending too much or not being clear enough.
1) I don't oppose to people earning money honestly (hey everyone has to earn money somehow to live, thank you I knew that ! - that wasn't the point) and I am not opposed to people modifying carts for development purpose.
2) I am also personally not opposed to people playing ROMs on their PC or their Power Pak, or even fake carts they made, even if it's illegal, because I consider such games were released sufficiently long ago so that downloadig them doesn't hurt the copyright holders economically. That is out topic anyway, just that no I am not opposed to this.
3) I am however opposed to people asking information about blatantly illegal stuff on Nesdev, because it could lead to trouble on the site.
4) I am opposed to people selling fake catrs, whenver they try to pass it as a prototype, or they put it a label on it to make it belive it is a real one (even if the game wasn't released). The reason for that is that they asked us how to do this, and sell them to someone as a rare NES cart as opposed to saying it's a fake one and has no collectible value.
So all of us, who spent time to help the "guy" to make his cart, the scammed buyer, and the translator of the game, are being f*** in the ass. You can't say the guy does honnestly earn his life to feed his wife/children that way, this makes NO sense.
In short I'm not opposed on them earning money, but I'm on them earning money's on OUR and [insert the bootleged game's developers]'s work, when they did literally nothing to earn it.
5) Eventually I am opposed to the fact more and more people come on Nesdev on the SOLE purpose of doing themselves fake carts, when it adds nothing to nes development. We spend time to explain them how to do it - we take the risk of being in legal trouble - but the "guy" doing the cart at best just plays the game (even though it's not necessary to make a cart to play it thanks to emulators !) - at worst he scams someone.
In all cases, this adds nothing to the nesdev comunauty, therefore such "trolls" are indesirable.
I haven't even mentioned the parts in limited supply - as I feel like there is enough terrible NES games so that it's not a major problem. But it's true it could become a problem for some particular boards. For instance I wouldn't be surprised if it's now impossible to find a FC2NES adapter in an early USA game, as they probably were already all destroyed to be used to play FC games on a NES, something similar could happen to a particular donor game for a particularly popular bootleg.
Hopefully now people will understand my point of view better - and will answer with solutions and not by bashing my arguments with other lame arguments such as "yeah they illegaly make money and what ? is it a problem ?"
I agree with breglad. Scamming people is what another thing that is important. Despite earthbound being all over ebay, people still try to sell it and still get huge money for it because they say it's unreleased and rare, but yet, over at most sites, you can order a repro for $30 or so. I hate that too. But yet, when you don't research online before buying something, I guess you kind of deserve it.
Selling a repro as a repro is fine IMO. Just don't say other stuff that isn't true and don't try to dress it up as a devcart for that game back when it was being developed with a sticked on the front and two holes. And even then, prototypes should have prototype Nintendo long boards in them, so again, research before buying can make it obvious that what your buying is fake.
Yeah, I say we try to find a way that we can let people know how to make what they want, but we have to decide on a way to point them to the right direction and not make it obvious we're helping despite we're going to say we're not going to.
blargg wrote:
Hypothetically, what if we found that bunnyboy made the PowerPak just for the money? Would that negate the value of the PowerPak, put it on everyone's blacklist? The question to me has nothing to do with any money being made, but rather whether it adds value to NES development. That is ALL that matters. I don't know why some people here have such a problem with the free market, and the idea that someone somewhere is doing something that others find of value, and is getting paid for it. Fraud is another thing entirely, of course, but I see a lot of focus on things unrelated to that.
Whether fraudulent or not, most NES fans agree that mass game destruction is not a positive development.
The PowerPak, which is made without destroying anything already made/valuable, doesn't compare. But it does seem that bunnyboy may have priced his goods too high, considering that the last guy to ask about the boards complained about the power pak's high price. Mass production has its virtues, after all.
Bregalad wrote:
3) I am however opposed to people asking information about blatantly illegal stuff on Nesdev, because it could lead to trouble on the site.
Then what should happen to all the people who post NSFs? Where is your poll about shutting them down?
Bregalad wrote:
4) I am opposed to people selling fake catrs, whenver they try to pass it as a prototype, or they put it a label on it to make it belive it is a real one (even if the game wasn't released). The reason for that is that they asked us how to do this, and sell them to someone as a rare NES cart as opposed to saying it's a fake one and has no collectible value.
This is all in your imagination. Until you show that any single person who posted here has actually sold a cart as a prototype, it is just your paranoia driving this whole thing.
ibeenew2 wrote:
This is all in your imagination. Until you show that any single person who posted here has actually sold a cart as a prototype, it is just your paranoia driving this whole thing.
I know for a fact there were numerous people selling Earthbound as a prototype on eBay in the past. I didn't save these auctions so I can't prove it to you.
ibeenew2, no proof needed, trust us. It happens. Untill you show proof it doesn't, show us.
And maybe the person who made that stadium events cart used info here. I'm sure they didn't reverse engineer the hardware on the board, it only makes sense since this site has amazing info and docs. But yeah, not even prototypes, but fakes in general. It's the same thing. Passing a cart off as something that it isn't. Weather it be a proto or a cart that is hard to find, same thing. It's just trying to deceive people.
Bregalad wrote:
Well Motzilla, that was very well worded.
1) I don't oppose to people earning money honestly (hey everyone has to earn money somehow to live, thank you I knew that ! - that wasn't the point) and I am not opposed to people modifying carts for development purpose.
Slightly off topic, but I am still curious: This being the case and after other statements made in this thread, why do you have such a problem with Sivak? He posts here about nesdev. He develops for NES, and makes legitimate games. He also happens to sell them.
I'm going to be in that boat soon. I'm making a game that I will most likely sell through some means. After that point will you make a personal promise to not help me as well? (If I ever ask a question, I haven't really done much of that.)
Jedi QuestMaster wrote:
ibeenew2 wrote:
This is all in your imagination. Until you show that any single person who posted here has actually sold a cart as a prototype, it is just your paranoia driving this whole thing.
I know for a fact there were numerous people selling Earthbound as a prototype on eBay in the past. I didn't save these auctions so I can't prove it to you.
And were those people posting here? Or did they just find the info through other sources?
Did those auctions actually sell? Or did sites like DP/NA identify and shut them down?
Other sites give out the info, and then also help identifying what is fake. The only people "scammed" are those too stupid to do a basic search.
Kasumi wrote:
Slightly off topic, but I am still curious: This being the case and after other statements made in this thread, why do you have such a problem with Sivak?
I imagine that Bregalad doesn't have bills to pay yet, he probably still lives with his family and his primary occupation is studying. I say give him a couple of years and he will probably see things differently then.
That's what happened to me at least... back when I had no obligations I used to say that my personal projects were just for fun and I would never make money from them, but now I'm in a position that in order to justify the time I want to spend on my personal projects I'll have to sell them, because I won't be using that time to work on something else to bring money home.
I totally understand the frustration, I feel it too. What I had considered doing before (but decided against it, for now) was to make a section of the forum that's dedicated to cart/system modifications. I guess it'd be like the newbie forum, but more specialized.
Reasons I decided against it include:
- it's stuff could be addressed with a FAQ/wiki and a single thread for questions / related issues outside the scope of the original queston
- concern about spreading things too thin
- typically there's only way to wire it. it works, or it doesn't. it's boring!
Of course if any random person wants to post about their nifty idea to modify a cart or NES, hopefully they'd feel free to do so anyways (and likely would skip over any rules if there were any). I wouldn't expect it to to be something creative, but one can hope. A discussion at Nintendoage about adding LEDs into an NES cart was kinda interesting. Led me to think of a way an array of LEDs could glow at different brightnesses depending on how long the NES had a particular bank switched in during a frame. Just a trick, but maybe useful for debugging/testing.
But to the original topic, I've just been dead-set against having any kind of rules at all and have wanted to keep it that way as much as possible. I'd enable anonymous posting like it was originally (IP address only), if not for it surely turning into spamfest-2010. I'm sure every huge bureaucratic system started out with a good intention and one rule to enforce.
I'm not sure where else a rule like this can lead other than requiring all sorts of detective work and grand inquisition as to why they're doing it. It's too useful for developers to use it (though I think anyone wanting to using ASIC mappers and clones of such won't get the most "bang for their buck").
Oh what I forgot to say in my other posts - There is at least one upside for NES developers of people buying reproductions. That means people are using their NES's, and that they want to buy new carts for it. And that's a pretty damn good upside, if you want to release a game.
tepples: mentioning the PowerPak in a guideline wording or similar I think comes close to being an advertisement or endorsement (even though it is the only option in a lot of cases). of course a full list of options for different situations would be better, but that's more work and maintenance (and maybe would be nice to have on the wiki, if it's not already).
tcaudilllg wrote:
The PowerPak, which is made without destroying anything already made/valuable, doesn't compare. But it does seem that bunnyboy may have priced his goods too high, considering that the last guy to ask about the boards complained about the power pak's high price. Mass production has its virtues, after all.
I disagree. The PowerPAK at $135 USD is not high in my opinion. While I would agree that this product is not cheap, good products seldom are cheap. If you consider the value of what the PowerPAK can do for you and weigh it against alternatives I think it is priced well. It would be far more expensive and less comfortable developing a game with nothing more than modified original cartridges to take EPROMs and some EPROM programmer. While you might start out cheaper your costs will eclipse the PowerPAK over time in cost of EPROMs and other boards. Plus the time consumed by reprogramming EPROMs versus overwriting a file on a CF card.
It would be nice if there was an alternative fairly capable development aimed product. But it would need to be significantly cheaper while still being reasonably capable. You might be able to sell a MMC1 USB Flash Cartridge if you could produce it cheap enough. But if you get too close to the cost of the PowerPAK then you may as well just buy one of them.
MottZilla wrote:
tcaudilllg wrote:
The PowerPak, which is made without destroying anything already made/valuable, doesn't compare. But it does seem that bunnyboy may have priced his goods too high, considering that the last guy to ask about the boards complained about the power pak's high price. Mass production has its virtues, after all.
I disagree. The PowerPAK at $135 USD is not high in my opinion. While I would agree that this product is not cheap, good products seldom are cheap. If you consider the value of what the PowerPAK can do for you and weigh it against alternatives I think it is priced well. It would be far more expensive and less comfortable developing a game with nothing more than modified original cartridges to take EPROMs and some EPROM programmer. While you might start out cheaper your costs will eclipse the PowerPAK over time in cost of EPROMs and other boards. Plus the time consumed by reprogramming EPROMs versus overwriting a file on a CF card.
It would be nice if there was an alternative fairly capable development aimed product. But it would need to be significantly cheaper while still being reasonably capable. You might be able to sell a MMC1 USB Flash Cartridge if you could produce it cheap enough. But if you get too close to the cost of the PowerPAK then you may as well just buy one of them.
I think that from seeing the final price estimate of the all-in-one NES with CF card thing that somebody else is working on, I would say that he's not making that much off each cart. Probably $25 or so, and I'm fine with that. I would think that such a thing would cost $100 to develop. I mean, look at the price of other flash carts. They're just as high.
BOLD reply:I really think that testing on hardware is cool and all, but emulator is king. Making a cart with a debugger is not better then ones included in like FCEUDX. I love it. Not saying it would be nice to see it an option, I just view it as kind of useless as emulators in the end are probably the better option to debug code and run programs.
Quote:
I disagree. The PowerPAK at $135 USD is not high in my opinion. While I would agree that this product is not cheap, good products seldom are cheap.
Definitely. A soldering Iron + EPROM programmer is definitely much more expensive than that.
Quote:
Oh what I forgot to say in my other posts - There is at least one upside for NES developers of people buying reproductions. That means people are using their NES's, and that they want to buy new carts for it. And that's a pretty damn good upside, if you want to release a game.
Well, at least some good news.
Bregalad wrote:
Definitely. A soldering Iron + EPROM programmer is definitely much more expensive than that.
Well, that depends... I've seen $5 soldering irons and $45 EPROM programmers... I wouldn't expect them to last long though (I had to buy a better EPROM programmer to replace my $45 one - it still works though, it's just picky about parallel ports).
It all depends on what programmer you use. The kind I would consider getting if I were interested in that sort of thing still would run around 100$ maybe a bit more. So the PowerPAK would cost very close to the same as EPROM Programmer + some blank Eproms.
Yeah, but you still have to consider donor carts, sockets, wires, solder, solder sucker/desoldering iron/heat gun... The PowerPak is cheaper than a good traditional setup, but it can be much more expensive that a cheap setup.
Isn't using a PowerPak too easy?
Back when the PowerPak didn't exist and I wanted to try my programs on hardware, I took the opportunity to learn a little about electronics, but I imagine that not everyone is willing to go down that path, and have no wish to ever work with hardware, just software. For that kind of people I guess that the PowerPak is a nice thing to have.
Even though I can test my software using a PowerPak or a development cartridge, I usually go with the PowerPak. My EPROM programmer is kept away (having it share the desk with my cats probably wouldn't end well), but my card reader is right here. I don't trust the PowerPak much when it comes to mappers though, so if I ever work on anything that uses more than a discrete logic mapper I'll surely double check a few times along the way.
$130 is a great price for PowerPak, I think. You're paying more for the variety of mapper support (which 95% of is practically useless to developers), and the convenience of using compact flash.
Building a CopyNES and using the PPak Lite or something similar is another option. But of course, that could be argued to be harder than modifying a cart. And the USB CopyNES kit at $70, IIRC is maybe twice what kevtris sold the parallel port kit version for (parallel port can be a pain to deal with though). CopyNES can be made to program flash carts. So that's more convenient than an EPROM burner.
An EPROM emulator is also a very good option, I spent around $200 on one a while back, and they can be bought for about the same price these days I think (with USB support, maybe battery backup). For anyone that doesn' tknow, it's just a board with an SRAM (and a PC interface to it), and a standard IDC cable that plugs into an EPROM socket. You just upload the memory from the PC, and it's live, no powering off the system needed.
Many years ago I actually had thought about designing one (there's not much to it) and producing a ROM emulator. But one annoyance is that you can't find DIP-32 IDC adapters anywhere (you can get 28-pin and 40-pin all day), so you have to cut down 40-pin ones. That, and the fact that there are already lots of them around.
And yeah, emulators on a PC can be used for testing and debugging, and that's just great for most of your game (like all the logic and 6502 stuff). But when it comes to dealing with the PPU and doing timing tricks, I can only be shocked and amazed when emulators get it looking the same as an NES. You might be OK if you stick to things that Battletoads does, or other cases that actually get tested, but other than that it's always seemed surprisingly easy to get stuff on an NES screen that looks different on emulators (often with differences between every emulators). Until even recently, if you had written a game like NESnake 2 that uses DPCM and reads the controllers, you would have been totally screwed when you tried to play it on an NES. I'm sure there are still other "gotchas" remaining to be found somewhere.
Memblers wrote:
An EPROM emulator is also a very good option, I spent around $200 on one a while back, and they can be bought for about the same price these days I think (with USB support, maybe battery backup). For anyone that doesn' tknow, it's just a board with an SRAM (and a PC interface to it), and a standard IDC cable that plugs into an EPROM socket. You just upload the memory from the PC, and it's live, no powering off the system needed.
This is great, the only real disadvantage is that one of these is not enough for an NES game that has PRG-ROM and CHR-ROM, so you'll either have to buy another device (another EPROM emulator or an EPROM programmer) or stick to CHR-RAM.
Yeah, when you think about it though, graphics are something that definitely benefits from cross-development and doesn't get tested the way code does (other than sprite zero, heh), so it wouldn't be as bad to use real EPROMs for CHR. But yeah CHR-RAM is pretty easy, I made a bootloader that loaded 8kB CHR, but one could add larger CHR and use the bankswitching to the same effect. Won't be as fast to load since there's an extra couple steps in there, though.
The CHR bus is pretty much free from worries with bus conflicts, mapper conflicts, and all that. I've been curious how CHR-Flashrom writing would work (or if it would), I haven't bothered to try it.
And you'll probably still need the EPROM programmer to make carts for beta testers if you go that route.
The unfortunate reality of the internet is, we will always have people looking for an easy way out looking for someone willing to do the work for them. Even if there was a wiki or visual site dedicated to reproducing carts from cannibalized donors we would still have people come and ask I soldered A-B and never got C what did I do wrong.
So if we had that visual instruction site with detailed pictures and instructions for the lazy (maybe cut out any theory but add a troubleshooting guide) then there would be sufficient reason for a Mod to lock a thread at the instant the questions are asked and a referral to said instruction page.
As for those who whine bitch and condemn those who come here for help on touchy subjects, quit wasting your time energy and sanity on these people and put your minds together and create this instruction site to rid yourselves of this annoyance.