I wonder if I should buy an iPad2... or a powerful laptop computer (notebook here) with FullHD and Blu Ray player. ^_^;;
Not a question, a computer. 4x more CPU, 8x more RAM pretty much standard, not being an Apple product. A PC is better than an iPad in nearly every way. What use is an iPad compared to a computer? None.
Besides, you computer will be useful for a few years. iPad's become obsolete as soon as you either buy an Android product or the next version comes out and Apple chokes the software you can use on it for the same price for a smudge of an upgrade. Plus 320GB hard drive is cheap. 64GB on the iPad you'll be paying out the @$$ for.
I don't think any of the iStuff is worth what they cost, specially here in Brazil with all the taxes. Apple shit is terribly overpriced. Instead of an iPad I'd much rather get an Android Tablet, which are just as good and cost a third of the price. Or get a powerful laptop like you said... It's not as portable, but can do a lot more.
I'm not interested in iStuff since they hide local storage away from you as much as possible.
I won't buy anything that pretends to be a computer but can't run programs that I compiled myself. With an iPad, you need a $600 Mac and a $100/year developer program membership to do that. That's why I bought a netbook instead. But if you really want a tablet, Droid does what iDon't. Get an ASUS Eee Pad or a 9th generation Archos.
I would definitely get the computer.
The iPad has a bunch of really awesome games you can get for a dollar or two, but it's totally not worth the iPremium, especially for the lack of versatility. The only reason I could see myself ever wanting to buy one is development purposes or I had a ridiculous amount of disposable income.
And this is coming from someone who has an iPhone.
@Tepples - Hackintosh? VMWare? Used MacMini? The 100 bucks a year is pretty crappy and unavoidable though, but probably a drop in the bucket if you actually make money off an app.
I would have to agree with most of what you guys are saying. And I never imagined I'd own an apple product a little over a year ago.
But I do own the original iPad and still love it. I would say it depends on how you intend to use it. And other tablets could be just as great or better without the price of apple. However I would say there are a better selection of apps available for the iPad compared to android tablets. (Some may disagree)
Don't get me wrong a tablet won't replace a high performing PC but it's super convenient. I use it constantly for school taking notes, email, and surfing. It's something you can actually carry around and use walking from one place to another. It's great traveling if you can't stand being confined of a phone. I literally take it everywhere I go and would hate to loose it, but it's more of a mobile supplement than a PC replacement. It really all depends on how you plan to use it.
Stay away of iStuff as much as possible - they are overpriced crap people buy just to being fashionable - but if you want to be fashionable you'd rather invest in clothes at least it'll do the trick.
Ian A wrote:
@Tepples - Hackintosh?
Apple successfully sued someone over that.
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VMWare?
As I understand it, Mac OS X will run in VM tools, but only in the Mac OS X versions of said VM tools.
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Used MacMini?
The last time I looked on eBay, the really cheap used Mac mini computers were over five years old, meaning PowerPC, meaning incompatible with the iOS SDK.
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but probably a drop in the bucket if you actually make money off an app.
So in other words, iOS development is only for commercial developers who develop something for the public to run, not hobbyists who develop something for themselves and their real life friends to run.
tepples wrote:
Ian A wrote:
@Tepples - Hackintosh?
Apple successfully sued someone over that.
I wouldn't be that worried.
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VMWare?
As I understand it, Mac OS X will run in VM tools, but only in the Mac OS X versions of said VM tools.
I thought it could be run but wasn't technically supported. I have no idea about the legality of it though. I'm pretty sure you can visualize OSX server, though. Could be wrong.
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Used MacMini?
The last time I looked on eBay, the really cheap used Mac mini computers were over five years old, meaning PowerPC, meaning incompatible with the iOS SDK.
Touché.
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but probably a drop in the bucket if you actually make money off an app.
So in other words, iOS development is only for commercial developers who develop something for the public to run, not hobbyists who develop something for themselves and their real life friends to run.
Disagree. I was trying to say that the initial investment is potentially recoup-able, and probably one of the smaller sunk costs if you release an app. The iOS market is still pretty lucrative. The guys who made World of Goo had a postmortem thingy about it that's a good read.
I don't think that there's anything wrong with having to make an initial investment to develop for a platform. I mean, you probably have to have a computer to make a program for a computer (baring any obscure wikipedia link to someone making a computer program out of transistors or something), and although you could probably get away without one I would definitely recommend an NES if you want to make an NES game. You should probably own an android phone or two for testing as well, if you're serious about it.
I'm not saying I like apple's game, but it's not that much different that Sony's or Nintendo's or Microsoft's. Microsoft's especially.
And here's where the analogy between pay-per-year-to-jailbreak and everything else breaks down:
Ian A wrote:
I don't think that there's anything wrong with having to make an initial investment to develop for a platform. I mean, you probably have to have a computer to make a program for a computer
You can't use an iPad to make a program for an iPad, despite the iPad having Bluetooth keyboard support and a faster CPU and more RAM than the 1999 laptop I was using when I was first getting into the NES. Nor can you use Free tools to make a program for an iPad, unlike my NES toolchain which is pretty much GIMP, Python, and ca65.
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and although you could probably get away without one I would definitely recommend an NES if you want to make an NES game.
You don't need a specific brand of computer or a specific operating system to make an NES game. You don't need an annual subscription to make an NES game. You won't even need a PowerPak once Memblers finishes 8T-ROM.
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I'm not saying I like apple's game, but it's not that much different that Sony's or Nintendo's or Microsoft's. Microsoft's especially.
It's a lot better than Sony's or Nintendo's, given that Sony's web site for developer sign-up has been down for eight months and counting, and that Nintendo is a staunch opponent of hobbyist development and home-based family businesses. But you're right that the pricing of the iOS developer program ($99 per year to run your own programs on your own hardware, plus 30 percent of sales) were lifted straight from Xbox Live Indie Games.
But if you absolutely must run one or more iPad-exclusive applications with no close substitutes, and you do not plan on making your own applications, then by all means buy an iPad.
I think tepples covered it but the $99 isn't a startup cost, it's a constant cost. Imagine paying $99 a year to developer for NES, I'd be in the hole $198 myself. And most of the programs I write I don't want to write to make money, I just want to write them to write them as most people do. And then the $99 fee basically getting all the people who want to program the device just to do it for themselves. That sucks.
That's a big reason why Droid is better. It's for hobbyists and developers.
3gengames wrote:
I think tepples covered it but the $99 isn't a startup cost, it's a constant cost.
Ian A wrote:
The 100 bucks a year
I know it's a 100 dollars a year, as per my comment above. In my response I was thinking in a way that assumed you'd make an app that would return on that 100 dollars and enough to cover the next year, which would no longer require any more money spent. I realize this is the wrong avenue for me to go down with this argument. Sorry about that. I will try to address the real issues.
We're only able to freely develop for the NES is because it's so old. If you wanted to program it back in 1986 you'd either be paying money to nintendo or you'd be DEEP, DEEP, DEEP in it technically.
I just don't think apple's whole deal isn't really that terrible, although I think it's bad; it certainly isn't unusual (and it certainly doesn't keep shit apps off the app store).
tepples wrote:
But you're right that the pricing of the iOS developer program ($99 per year to run your own programs on your own hardware, plus 30 percent of sales) were lifted straight from Xbox Live Indie Games.
And I'd have to buy windows to do this too! (disclaimer: i don't own a mac either)
If you are a hobbyist, it is not that easy to get even $100 from an app with so oversaturated market. It is more of a gambling game even for bigger developers.
Shiru wrote:
If you are a hobbyist, it is not that easy to get even $100 from an app with so oversaturated market. It is more of a gambling game even for bigger developers.
But the costs of paying people to develop the app would dwarf the license, wouldn't it? I mean, more so for bigger developers than for hobbyists...
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None of my friends would believe I'm defending apple here, as I usually give people who purchase their stuff (ESPECIALLY LAPTOPS) a lot of crap (even though I have an iphone)
tepples wrote:
You can't use an iPad to make a program for an iPad, despite the iPad having Bluetooth keyboard support and a faster CPU and more RAM than the 1999 laptop I was using when I was first getting into the NES. Nor can you use Free tools to make a program for an iPad, unlike my NES toolchain which is pretty much GIMP, Python, and ca65.
There's Codea (previously Codify)
http://twolivesleft.com/Codea/
There are also plenty of programmers coding for
other platforms on the iPad, as it has a number of code editors.
I can make a program for an iPad for free. I own a Macbook and XCode is a free download. However, if I wanted to get into Windows dev, I'd have the same up-front costs you imply are somehow Apple-only. At the least, I'd have to buy the Win OS to run on my laptop.
I think the OP asked an ambiguous question. What are you using the computer for? If you want to play a Blu-Ray, you're obviously going to go for a laptop. If you want a lightweight portable that lasts days without needing a charge, then an iPad will be a better bet.
I understand the crew here will favor Android products, since they're more 'open,' customizable, programmable, etc., but arguing that people buy Apple products because they're fashionable is dumb. Plenty of people buy them because they're reliable, useful, well-designed, well-supported by developers, and so on. It's fine if that list isn't important to you - but it doesn't make another group slavish consumer zombies if they do.
My wife has an iPad and I have a laptop. Different needs for different people. I prefer to do web development on a laptop, but there's a hell of lot of times I end up borrowing her iPad.
noattack wrote:
tepples wrote:
You can't use an iPad to make a program for an iPad, despite the iPad having Bluetooth keyboard support and a faster CPU and more RAM than the 1999 laptop I was using when I was first getting into the NES. Nor can you use Free tools to make a program for an iPad, unlike my NES toolchain which is pretty much GIMP, Python, and ca65.
There's Codea (previously Codify)
http://twolivesleft.com/Codea/There are also plenty of programmers coding for
other platforms on the iPad, as it has a number of code editors.
I can make a program for an iPad for free. I own a Macbook and XCode is a free download. However, if I wanted to get into Windows dev, I'd have the same up-front costs you imply are somehow Apple-only. At the least, I'd have to buy the Win OS to run on my laptop. I think the OP asked an ambiguous question. What are you using the computer for? If you want to play a Blu-Ray, you're obviously going to go for a laptop. If you want a lightweight portable that lasts days without needing a charge, then an iPad will be a better bet.
I understand the crew here will favor Android products, since they're more 'open,' customizable, programmable, etc., but arguing that
people buy Apple products because they're fashionable is dumb. Plenty of people buy them because they're reliable, useful, well-designed, well-supported by developers, and so on. It's fine if that list isn't important to you - but it doesn't make another group slavish consumer zombies if they do.
My wife has an iPad and I have a laptop.
Different needs for different people. I prefer to do web development on a laptop, but there's a hell of lot of times I end up borrowing her iPad.
Replys to those areas:
1. But windows is basically a standard. You can get an XP computer and program windows programs for basically the cost of a tower and a download of Dev-C++ plus some libaries. On a Mac, you can't grab one down the street. They don't work on the old computers because Apple cuts off from version number and not hardware capabilities to maximize profits and sales.
2 part 1: And they don't? I see people run off to buy the new iPod (3/4)G( /S) day one without any idea why it's better or why the old one needed replaced. They're sheep, all of Apple buyers.
2 part 2: Tell that to Deathstar hard drives and the inability to replace any part inside those devices. Good luck. If it's not a screen and super valuable to make somebody create a replacement, then you're SCREWED.
3. But Mac has NO software that is better in any field at all. None. Zero. Plus when you write programs for it, they reach 5% of people and piss off the 95% that are on windows because windows should always be a #1 priority for any programmer that's not stupid.
4. Yeah, but when you need to have software you need to get away from the proprietary bullshit which is the whole Apple company and agenda. Use windows and always basically have all the best development tools for both Windows and even Ubuntu very likely. Not the same for Mac, there's probably no tool for both on Mac.
Microsoft is interested in maximizing profits and sales, like any corporation. They're not in the market for charity. I don't understand your point about version numbers (the sentence isn't clear), so I can't really reply.
You're comparing two different platforms. Windows is the dominant PC OS, but others were talking about developing for iOS, the dominant tablet OS and a fairly even split with Android in the mobile space. Just because something is standard now doesn't mean it will be in the future (see Flash vs. HTML/CSS/JS) and the future tends to look PC-less, for lack of a better term. That doesn't mean ALL PCs will disappear, just that most people won't need them for everyday uses. The NESDev community is an edge-case, consisting of users with niche computing needs, so it's understandable that this scenario may not be appealing.
Yes, some consumers may buy products from a company because they're cool. But dismissing an entire market (tens of millions) as sheep is misguided at best. All companies have their blind evangelists (even Microsoft). Many people buy Apple products because they LIKE them. It's crazy, I know.
Number 3 is silly. If no Mac software is better than Windows, why would it 'piss off the 95%'? How could you even make such a blanket claim? Have you tried all software for both platforms? And I'm sure the Mac developers that make a living from their software wouldn't appreciate being called stupid. And if your guiding development principle is market share, why use Ubuntu development as an advantage? If you're a developer looking to make money right now, it'd be dumb to ignore iOS, period. That may change in the future, but for now, that's fact.
I don't see why these discussions always devolve into all-or-nothing dismissals of the opposing 'team'? I would never call Windows developers sheep or stupid because of their chosen platform. People choose the tools appropriate to their interests, needs, aesthetic preferences, desires, etc.
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Plus when you write programs for it, they reach 5% of people and piss off the 95%
This was right some 4 years ago.
Nowdays its more like 95% of people have macs and only 5% still have PCs (at least in my area). Everyone made "the change" all for the wrong reasons, and because they have no clue what a computer is in the first place.
No, Apple's PC market share is still under 10%. Isolating laptops changes the percentage considerably, but overall (business, server, PC, and so on), their market share is still comparatively low.
I also hope everyone sees the irony of criticizing Apple for being a closed platform when we all develop for a platform controlled by Nintendo, who notoriously regulated all aspects of the NES, from manufacturing to content. Videogame consoles in general are the shining example of closed platforms (though that's changed a bit this generation), for better and worse.
And now I'm curious, Bregalad, about what your definition of a computer is (and how, presumably, the Mac is somehow less of one?).
A mac is less of a computer because it's a wasteland for user-created tools for specialty stuff compared to Windows. And then most of the software on it for most stuff is their software, which sucks even more as it's all for selling you more garbage.
noattack wrote:
I also hope everyone sees the irony of criticizing Apple for being a closed platform when we all develop for a platform controlled by Nintendo
True, NESdev relies on a jailbreak (or rather a cloned key). But there are several issues in play here, some of them being renewable security (the ability of the manufacturer to fix defects allowing unauthorized jailbreaks), the cost of tools, the cost of an authorized jailbreak, and whether everyone obtaining a copy of the program likewise needs a jailbreak. I'll sort these into broad categories by any required annual fee for a durable jailbreak.
No annual feeThe NES and for that matter every single other Nintendo consumer platform up through the DS Lite lack renewable security: break once, break everywhere for all time. The developer tools are affordable; the software is free and Free, and the hardware options include a modded cart board + EPROM programmer, a ReproPak kit with sockets + EPROM programmer, a PowerPak, or the forthcoming 8T-ROM. And the jailbreak is simple: cut pin 4 to create a lockless circuit. Furthermore, after the expiration of the CIC patent,
cheap cloned keys let end users' systems run "unlicensed" games.
Android has soft security: the end user can turn installation of self-signed packages on or off, and all phones with Android Market have adb install. The tools are likewise free and Free, as I understand it. Numerous alternative markets have sprung up (AppsLib, Amazon, SlideME, Soc.io).
Windows Phone 7 has renewable security, but the ChevronWP7 official jailbreak is $9 per device for life. As for the cost of the tools, there is price competition in the market for PCs capable of running Windows Phone SDK. The WP7 devices themselves are very expensive and not yet marketed for use with prepaid cellular service. I don't own a WP7 device and thus lack any sense of whether there's an audience for apps requiring ChevronWP7.
Some might argue that because Wii Menu 4.3 has gone so long without an upgrade, and because the architecture of Nintendo IOS doesn't allow fixing game bugs like that used by Smash Stack, Wii falls into this category as well. The homebrew tools are free and Free, and the jailbreak is a best-selling Wii game. The problem here is that Wii homebrew community tends to frown on charging for anything.
Annual feeApple iOS has a $99 per year fee for running programs obtained other than through the App Store. The developer tools are free with the purchase of a $600 dongle, which can usually work through one or two new versions of Mac OS X.
The Xbox Live Indie Games environment is based on XNA, just like games for WP7. But it has no counterpart to ChevronWP7 and thus requires the $99 per year App Hub subscription. As with WP7, there is price competition in the market for machines that can run XNA Game Studio. And as with WP7, only programming languages that can be compiled to verifiably type-safe IL will work.
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And now I'm curious, Bregalad, about what your definition of a computer is (and how, presumably, the Mac is somehow less of one?).
In my opinion, which may not match that of Bregalad, the Mac is a fine computer. It's just the iPad that's not really a general-purpose computer because Apple bans some specific purposes.
Tepples, I think you propose a much more reasonable set of disadvantages, though there's still a few points I'd say are worth noting.
Nintendo is a weirder corporate case than most in terms of the 'renewable security' issues, as they aren't as prone to patching (as you mention with the Wii). This is reflected in their online strategy in general, but I think both Sony and Microsoft are more consistently 'moving targets' in comparison to any Nintendo console. Both PSP and PS3 hackers/developers play cat-and-mouse with Sony's firmware revisions.
Nonetheless, I think it's odd to compare a near 30 year old platform that's slipped out of patent and commercial viability against a current, active platform like iOS. It's better to compare, say, 1987 Nintendo vs. 2011 Apple.
It's free to gather the tools and code for an NES emulator, but there are still associated costs with running code on real hardware. A Powerpak, building your own dev board, hell just owning an NES is only free if you already have them or the tools to build them. In that light, iOS dev could also be 'free' if you already have some of the base 'tools,' i.e. a Mac. If you do, you can download XCode and the iOS SDK for free and run them on the iPhone/iPad simulator. The dev membership comes into play when you want to run on real hardware and/or be included in the store.
The point is, there are associated development costs with any platform if you start from scratch.
I'd actually argue that the iPad is more of a general-purpose computer, keeping in mind that the general public doesn't care if they have to deal with file systems, manual saves, etc. They just want the damn thing to check email, browse the web, watch videos, and so on. They just want the computer to work.
We have to keep in mind that most users aren't like us. Even I, a web developer and hobbyist programmer, am amazed at the depth of knowledge and technical skill within this community.
That's why I keep quiet most of the time and just read.
noattack wrote:
They just want the computer to work.
Thank you! That pretty much sums up how I first spent five years with Windows (prior of '95 and DOS not included) followed 5 years of Linux before finally settling for going Mac (I just didn't care about dawdling with drivers and whatnot anymore -- I just wanted a system that could do whatever I wanted without having to put too much thought into it anymore.)
Even though several people I know (friends, acquaintances and some family members even) pretty much told me off for being such a nerd/weirdo when it came to computers (I was kinda used to this though, as I had been running Linux only for five years straight at that time), most of them have since "converted" to Mac as they the seemingly discovered that there are more pluses than minuses running MacOS.
I digress, but an aunt of mine quite disowned me lots of years ago for not running Windows, but ever after she bought herself that a portable Mac worth more than I'll probably ever going to pay for a single computer, she's been ever so nice to me. Ho-hum!
I'm ever so sorry for this somewhat lenghty post. :-(
noattack wrote:
They just want the computer to work.
That makes me want to cry. Learn how to correctly use a computer and it will work. That's automatically admitting you can't use a computer with that line, and I've heard it often from Mac users.
noattack wrote:
A Powerpak, building your own dev board, hell just owning an NES is only free if you already have them or the tools to build them.
I compare owning an NES to owning an iPad. An NES nowadays is a lot cheaper. (Yeah, someone might argue from inflation based on the current price for an iPad 2 and the price of an NES at launch compared to the price of a market basket of corn, crude, and copper, but I'm talking about now.)
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In that light, iOS dev could also be 'free' if you already have some of the base 'tools,' i.e. a Mac.
You need a sufficiently recent Mac for iOS. You can use the computer you already have for NES, and it can even be an older one because NESdev is not CPU-, GPU-, or RAM-hungry.
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If you do, you can download XCode and the iOS SDK for free and run them on the iPhone/iPad simulator.
If you are a hobbyist making apps to run exclusively in the simulator, and you have no intention of running them on the device? then why not just make Mac apps in the first place? It's like Bananmos used to say: if you want to make games for an emulator, make them for Java.
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The point is, there are associated development costs with any platform if you start from scratch.
Which means the comparison is based on startup costs and recurring costs.
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They just want the damn thing to check email, browse the web, watch videos, and so on.
In other words, they just want to consume, not create.
3gengames wrote:
Learn how to correctly use a computer and it will work.
People whose hobby doesn't involve programming don't want to learn; they just want their work to be done. That's why people bought general-purpose computers and used them as appliances, and that's why they buy appliances like the iPad and video game consoles.
Why would anyone develop for an emulator only? I can think of several reasons, from general intellectual interest (e.g. 'I want to see what Objective-C is like) to experimenting with a platform. I've dipped into Intellivision and Vectrex dev simply to see what the tools are like.
The consumption vs. creation criticism comes up a lot with the iPad. I don't see that there's anything inherently wrong with using a device for consumption alone. Plenty of people get by OK in life consuming movies, TV, music, books, and even culinary delicacies without creating them. Not everyone has that desire. However, the claim that people either can't or don't create with the iPad is wildly erroneous. There's an amazing range of audio/synthesis tools, word processors, video and photo editing suites, and so on. And the more people own them, the truer this will be.
I'm sure this conversation can go back and forth forever. I hope no one thinks I'm trying to convince them Apple is superior (which would never work) - simply that Apple products are fine machines to get work done with.
Well then, I thought you were supposed to learn to use tools. A computer is a tool, just so happens to be a very complex one if you don't look into how it works, what a file is, etc. You learn to use it or you shouldn't be able to use it honestly. Sorry, but that's the whole "using it properly" thing works.
Wow
Thanks for the comments. Anyway, here's a good question: how would you use it? Take my Nokia N8 as an example of gadget. I chose it because of my needs, not only for phone calls, but pictures of 12mp and movies in HD, plus its awesome quality (yeah). It plays music too, awesome.
Now, a tablet. It's not the same for taking pictures in a public area...
and, well, its size is a problem for working outside. By the way, an advanced cellphone has the same price of a tablet here. Go figure.
So, in short words, an iPad would be my "giant cellphone". Some of you were chatting about creating programs for it... well, it's interesting, but I believe that a PC is the platform for programming.
About the PC now: well, I noticed that the screen of a laptop within Full HD support is MUCH better than the "standard" 720p screens. With an powerful gfx board on it (GeForce), I *could* play games, since my current laptop has no power for it.
First, it's been a while that I could post around here since I have been very busy with my new job in the south of Japan. I will have a small rant on the subject since I had to work many hours on the android platform and it seems some people seems to think that because it's "open", everything is cool.
second, I want to mention that I'm an "iHater" by heart, but with all the exposure to android programming (especially with bitmap based application), I may have a change of heart. I hate the closed environment but programming for the platform seems less an headache to me now.
Because it's open doesn't mean that it will always be better. I was thinking that way but it doesn't seems to be the case. You would think that because it run linux that all of those phone would run on linux, right? Wrong. Some vendor still do windows only drivers for a system that uses linux! And even when they support windows, you're not even sure that it will run on a 64 bit EVEN when they provide the 64 bits drivers.
Phone from 1 year ago are already in the past even though the hardware is still good enough. Then you have the "open" thing. Because it's open, there is many different OS, many variance of UI, many different screen size, many things that should work that are standard but that don't because the maker didn't take the time to implement it properly etc.. Basically, we are back to the nightmare of working on the PC or older cellphones.
Then the sluggishness... It's awful. Even with a dual core some of those phone cannot run similar to an old 3GS! DUAL CORE! And now don't get me on the subject of real time audio... Loading a file can get you a lag of 200/300 millisecond, which is not acceptable when you try to sync stuff.
Basically, the OS was never made to do things like the iPhone, it was targeting to fight against black berry and changed when the iPhone came. If they can fix their graphic and audio subsystem, it will get better but 4.0.1 is still not doing so.
So before saying the platform is so great I would suggest you first to try to develop an application professionally and you may have a change of heart, or not if you like torture. I really liked android but now.. I don't know.
Back to the original question, it depends what you do with it. It's a small computer on the go so it's basically for light stuff like mail, web etc. If you need more than that, it will end up in the closet, like it did for many people.
Again, I don't own any iDevice except for a very old iPod video from 6 years ago but that android platform is starting to get on my nerve.
p.s. I couldn't touch a computer at home for more than a month 1/2 because of that #$$" android programming.
Adam and Eve paid too much for an apple. You too.
Gentleman, I got a Sansung Tab 8.9 this week!