I'd say I have a pretty unique problem, so I didn't hunt through too many threads researching it. Forgive me if I missed something obvious.
I decided I wanted to record all the Castlevania soundtracks, but was missing Akumajo Densetsu. So I bought what is supposedly a Nintendo-made machine with A/V output, which looks exactly like the toploading NES's, but with a Famicom cart slot instead of an NES one, and with no RF output. Was such a console ever officlally made? (The only name to appear on it is Nintendo's, but that doesn't mean much.)
I was told that if the machine was a Famiclone, the audio would not sound correct. So I bought an NES-to-Famicom converter and gave it The Test: the Skate or Die 2 title screen. It sounded perfect, as near as I can tell--I didn't actually open a wav editor to investigate specifics, but I was told that the difference would be obvious even though casual listening.
I acquired Akumajo Densetsu, popped it in, and it sounded...off. On the soundtrack (Akumajo Dracula Best), the VRC-6 channels are very full and crisp, and the DPCM (the drums) sounds about equal in volume with the rest of the music. In the NSF (through Festalon), the VRC-6 channels don't sound nearly as full and the PCM is quieter. On my system, the VRC-6 channels are louder than in either of the other two and the DPCM is quieter still (or maybe the VRC-6 being louder makes the drums sound quieter, I'm not sure on that one yet).
Now, the question is, why do all three sound different? Is Festalon's VRC-6 emulation not quite correct? Why is the DPCM so much louder in the soundtrack? Do I not have a real Famicom? Did the audio mixing hardware change with this version of the Famicom, thus making an accurate recording of this game impossible on this hardware? Is there any way of qcquiring audio files (wav, mp3, ogg, whatever) recorded from a confirmed real Famicom to hear how it's "supposed" to sound? I really want these recordings to be as accurate as possible and from real hardware.
Since I can't edit posts, I'll do it here.
The A/V output present on this machine is the same as that on the SNES, N64, and Gamecube--so much so that I can use the same cable.
Also, I mentioned that the VRC-6 sounded full and crisp on the soundtrack but not in the NSF. The VRC-6 through my hardware sounds just like the NSF, but louder.
Also:
"Is there any way of qcquiring audio files (wav, mp3, ogg, whatever) recorded from a confirmed real Famicom to hear how it's "supposed" to sound? I really want these recordings to be as accurate as possible and from real hardware."
That should have read, "I really want my resulting recordings to be as..." etc.
Maybe next time, I'll use the Preview button.
I just saw the threads about the Famicom audio output being passed to the cart to be mixed with the VRC-6 audio and then sent to the audio outputs...now I'm even more confused.
You need to modify your NES and NES/Famicom converter.
Look here:
http://www.54.org/condev/NESMods/NESMod ... Pin_18.jpg
Take your NES/Famicom converter apart and solder a wire from pin 46 on the Famicom side to Pin 18 on the NES side.
I get the feeling I've been misunderstood.
I hope you don't think I'm trying to play Akumajo Densetsu on my NES, because I'm not--I actually have a Famicom (which I -hope- is real) to play it on. What I'm wondering is, since the volume levels don't exactly match those of the NSF in Festalon, is my Famicom fake or is Festalon inaccurate? The mixing in Festalon seems more logical (everything is more or less the same volume except the PCM), but it -is- emulation and thus is subject to error. But on the other hand, I can't 100% guarantee that the Famicom is real. If I were to unscrew the Famicom and take it apart, is there anything I could look for to verify that it's real? Maybe a number on a part somewhere? Also, if it is real, was the sound hardware changed at all across different Famicom versions?
I recorded my Famicom and here is how it is suppost to sound,
http://www.54.org/condev/akumajo.mp3
If you take it apart, you should see 2A03 on the CPU and 2C02 on the PPU.
FamiClones may have different numbers or blank chips.
So comparing it to the output from my machine, the VRC-6 channels on my machine are louder and everything else is quieter. Does this mean I have a fake Famicom or was the hardware changed with later systems? This one looks exactly like the top-loading NES but has an AV port (like the SNES) instead of RF and has a Famicom cartrige slot instead of NES. Why are my external channels too loud?
Blah, how do I even go about unscrewing it? It has those weird little round screws with no grooves in them.
Anonymous wrote:
So I bought what is supposedly a Nintendo-made machine with A/V output, which looks exactly like the toploading NES's, but with a Famicom cart slot instead of an NES one, and with no RF output. Was such a console ever officlally made? (The only name to appear on it is Nintendo's, but that doesn't mean much.)
That is the "AV Famicom". It's as official as they come, unless you have a bootleg version.
The round screws in Nintendo consoles have six notches in them. Search for a 4.5mm "GameBit" for the proper way to open them, or you can cheat with any object with a sharp point. Some people even modify standard (flat head) screwdrivers by using a Dremel rotary tool to cut a notch into which the rounded part fits.
maybe post some pictures, if you can.
If it is an official one,
maybe they changed the output level, or output impedance.
That would affect the gain.
In the original Famicom, they pass an analog signal through a 40H368, which is a tri-state buffer. They are using it to buffer the signal, and it should have low output impedance.
According to Kevin Hortons docs, the VRC6 is a R2R ladder, and the input impedance is about 3k (or was it 6k), which is rather high, and the output impedance is about the same.
So, either the newer Famicom has much higher output impedance, or they output level is just lower.
Does the real AV Famicom have any specific model number, like the NES's NES-001 or whatever it was? Because this one says HVC-101.
Also, it has a logo in the upper right corner of the sticker on the bottom that looks similar to "VCI" or somesuch. And in the lower right, it says:
MADE IN JAPAN
G743529
HCV-NFF-1
Then there's a seperate sticker below that one with "HN 10992415", with "ABS" in a square beside the sticker.
All I have is a webcam, do you still want pictures?
I'll get around to unscrewing it with a "sharp object" after all of the above is read and verified one way or the other.
Note that as I said before, Skate or Die 2, through an NES-to-Famicom converter, played perfectly. Since the VRC-6 mixing is done in the cart and the problem with my output lies in the mixing, I'd be more inclined to believe that the system is real and something is messed with the cart...but I'd still like to have the above information verified and know what you guys think about the whole thing. Would an MP3 similar to the one drk421 recorded help any?
Sure, post a link or something.
drk421 wrote:
So, either the newer Famicom has much higher output impedance, or they output level is just lower.
That's exactly what I was afraid of. I don't want to have to hunt down an original machine and then try to figure out how to record the sound from it without AV Out. And I have a feeling that if I tried to modify my NES, I'd just mess something up. Is there any other alternative? Could it possibly be the cart? Is there any way of verifying the higher output impedance/lower output level? I really don't see why they'd change something like that, since it would unavoidably screw up any game which uses a chip like that.
What do you make of the MP3?
Believe me, you have real Nintendo hardware, I have one myself with the same model information. No pirate outfit uses the inverted hex security screws that Nintendo uses or the Nintendo A/V output connector. Many pirate systems don't mix external cartridge sound with the internal sound at all.
I also have an Akumajou Densetsu cartridge. I have tested it, compared it to drk421's recording and if he really did record that from an original Famicom (without A/V) then you may be correct about the VRC-6 channels dominating the internal NES channels. Of course my TV's speakers may not be producing the ideal listening experience.
Isn't cool that the game has a sound test mode for people like us who want to compare our emulators to the real McCoy?
So then they -did- screw with the impedence/volume levels? Great, now I have to find an original Famicom somehow (hopefully with a disk system), or at least get a Famicom-to-NES converter and mod it to use with one of my NES's. Fleh.
And yes, the presence of Castlevania 3's sound test in combination with the awesome music was what got me into game music in the first place.
The levels may have been affected in the NES console as well...
If I were you,
I'd save some money and just modify the Famicom you have.
drk421: Thanks for the recording. ^_^
Festalon 0.5.6 will have more accurate VRC6 emulation, at least...