Wherein I fail to make a NES disc Changer

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Wherein I fail to make a NES disc Changer
by on (#26731)
This thread/project is pretty much over. I went into this project with a very basic knowledge of elctronics and circuts, and a friend that knew some more. We made mistkes along the way, and a general lack of NES knowledge ruined us. I had fun anyway and learned a bit, and now i'm in search for something I can afford (and am capable) of doing right.

Things accomplished Successfully:
Fixing a 72 pin connector
Disabling a 10Nes chip
Obtaining a NES ADVANTAGE controller in return for making a friends NES work again

Things botched:
No connector switch because I forgot how a circut works and I didn't read up enough on the archtecture of the NES
A few destroyed connectors
Uh, everything.
----------









--------------------------
Howdy all - I come to you in search of answers.

I have a new personal project that I thought up recently - I want to create a "Disc Changer" for my NES. That is, I want to create a unit with all of my NES games in it, label facing the user - with a button next to each label. When the NES on and the button is pressed, I want THAT cartridge to run on the console.

Of course, there are some problems with this - each game will need a 72 pin connector of it's own, or hopefully some sort of homemade substitue. The console itself may lose it's 72 pin connector, and have the outputs for the cartridges wired directly to the board.

There are lots of hurdels here, but the main one i'm concerend about is the 72 pin connector - I can't find very much information on the PIECE itself, even though I can find lots of information on replacing it, or "restoring" it by bending the pins back in place.

Are there any schematics avalible describing how it works? Do any hardware savvy folks here have any good ideas on how to go about making my own connectors (on the cheap) for the cartridges?

Are the TOP LOADER cartridge connector slots avalible for purchase anywhere?



I have one more question too - I'm probably going to need to buy a spare NES (or two) to do this project, but I also have a spare Famicom that i'm not using that I would be willing mod for this - are there any tutorials to modifying/replacing it's connector to work with NES games?




If this is too much to ask, i'm sorry - but i'm not sure where to start, and i'm starved for hardware information about the connector itself.

by on (#26733)
15 seconds of using CTRL-F on nesdev.com gives me...

Code:
Cart Pinout:
------------
                             Top           Bottom
                         ----------------------------


                                  +-------+
                              GND |01   37| CLK 21.47727Mhz (NTSC)
                          PRG A11 |02   38| M2
                          PRG A10 |03   39| PRG A12
                           PRG A9 |04   40| PRG A13
                           PRG A8 |05   41| PRG A14                   
                           PRG A7 |06   42| PRG D7
                           PRG A6 |07   43| PRG D6
                           PRG A5 |08   44| PRG D5                       
                           PRG A4 |09   45| PRG D4
                           PRG A3 |10   46| PRG D3
                           PRG A2 |11   47| PRG D2
                           PRG A1 |12   48| PRG D1
                           PRG A0 |13   49| PRG D0
                          PRG R/W |14   50| PRG /CE (/A15 & /M2)
                             /IRQ |15   51| EXP 9
                            EXP 0 |16   52| EXP 8
                            EXP 1 |17   53| EXP 7
                            EXP 2 |18   54| EXP 6
                            EXP 3 |19   55| EXP 5
                            EXP 4 |20   56| CHR /WR
                          CHR /RD |21   57| CIRAM /CE
                        CIRAM A10 |22   58| CHR /A13
                           CHR A6 |23   59| CHR A7
                           CHR A5 |24   60| CHR A8
                           CHR A4 |25   61| CHR A9
                           CHR A3 |26   62| CHR A11
                           CHR A2 |27   63| CHR A10
                           CHR A1 |28   64| CHR A12
                           CHR A0 |29   65| CHR A13
                           CHR D0 |30   66| CHR D7
                           CHR D1 |31   67| CHR D6
                           CHR D2 |32   68| CHR D5
                           CHR D3 |33   69| CHR D4
                         SECURITY |34   70| SECURITY
                         SECURITY |35   71| SECURITY
                              +5V |36   72| GND
                                  +-------+
                             Cartridge Connector


EDIT: Might I also suggest putting a 10NES in the cart selector itself & adding some circuitry to execute a BRK command (AKA dropping all PRG data pins for a few cycles). That way, you can switch w/o turning off power, assuming the next game clears the memory it uses before reading from it...

by on (#26734)
Wow hm. Um. Wow.

Okay, i'm going to spend a few days looking up terms apparently - this schematic uh... It's ahead of me right now, and I need to "decode" this.


15 seconds? I guess I really don't know what i'm looking for. For the record, this is my first project, but when it's done, it'll be really convient to have set up.

by on (#26737)
It's simpler than is seems. A generic ROM's majority of pins can be divided up into 2 different areas: Address & Data (A & D, Add & Dat, etc). The NES decides what it wants to look at on Address pins, & it receives the data from said address on the Data pins.

The NES has generally 2 ROM inputs: PRG (PRoGram data) & CHR (CHaRacter data). The PPU accesses the CHR for graphics information & the CPU accesses the PRG for the game itself.

The EXP (EXPansion) pins led to the unused expansion port on the bottom of front-loading decks. Nintendo never made any use of this, so it's completely safe to not solder anything there at all. (It's common practice in the portablizing community to just use 2 old floppy cables as a connector & skip the EXP pins)

The Security pins lead to a chip called the 10NES, a CIC security chip installed on every licensed Nintendo cartridge. If you simply desolder one from a common SMB/Duck Hunt cart & keep it in the unit you're building, you can not only skip these pins, but you can also switch between games without shutting off the system, considering the compatibility issue I mentioned above. Your circuitry would also have to take at least...I'd say...maybe 1/50th of a second to give the CPU time to initiate BRK to $0000, causing another break & so on until a cartridge is inserted.

(I've never modded a NES before but I've even tested this theory by taking out a cartridge whilst the power still on & inserting another cart, but as I already mentioned that I've yet to mod a NES, the CIC continues to reset the system afterwards)

by on (#26738)
Wow, that explained a lot actually. Thanks.

And the floppy cable - I think i've seen those before, like you said in portable mods.

So, what you're telling me is with a little ingnuity and attention, I can use one of these:

Image

I just want to make sure I have the right thing in mind, because I can probably get some of these fairly cheap, or free with all the old parts at my Uncle's work.

Edit: Will These work?
http://www.digiconcepts.com/cables_floppy_07.htm
I can't tell because the angle of the sample photograph. I don't want to order them unless i'm sure.

This has actually helped a lot. I mean, a lot a lot. I appretiate it, I feel a bit more confident now than I did when I first saw that schematic.

by on (#26753)
I am curious wouldsimpley putting a switch on the VCC of the cartriges and leaveing the rest connected for the carts work?

by on (#26756)
^^
What do you mean? I'm afraid I don't know what a VCC is, unless it means "video cartridge Changer"

The idea is that the switch will be on the cartridge changer, and every cartridge in the changer will be connected to it's own 72 pin at all times, and a switch will dictate which connector is being sent to the console.

What's a VCC though?

if your definition is the one i found following this sentence, i'm afraid I doubly dont understand your question



Quote:
An electronics designation that refers to voltage from a power supply connected to the "collector" terminal of a bipolar transistor. In an NPN bipolar (BJT) transistor, it would be +Vcc, while in a PNP transistor, it would be -Vcc.

by on (#26757)
vcc is the power supply the 5v+ tecnically I used the tern incorrectley but I thought it would be clear

the question I posed was would it work by just putting the switch on the 5v+ the leave the rest connected?

I have switched between BIOS ROM's useing this methade and I belive the princaples should apply

by on (#26758)
I'll have to do some reading up. I don't know enough about the workings of the system right now to do that, but i'll figure it out and give it a shot in my prototype next weekend. It sounds like a good idea, so it's worth shot.

by on (#26762)
Peppers poses an interesting idea! You can simply get some of those pushbutton switches (I forget what they're called) & connect it to the +5V on each connector! That could be slow enough for BRK to $0000 to be initiated!

Can anyone here confirm if this will work?

by on (#26764)
I believe it would be ok for 2 maybe even 3 but after that there is a good chance the noise level would probably be too high.

But there are plenty of people around here more knowledgeable than me I would like one of them to chime in, perhaps thicker wires and additional insulation?

by on (#26767)
You can get 72 pin connectors from MCM Electronics (but they seem expensive, and I dont think can be attached properly to a regular PCB.

There's the 72 pin connector on this page
http://www.lizardlickamusements.com/pag ... ical.shtml

But I have no idea if it fits properly, etc.. Someone would need to buy one and try it out. It looks similar to the connector being used here: http://mozy.org/16bit/portagen/

Al

by on (#26768)
Oh, I get exactly what you mean now.

I think I can do that - I'll try it on my prototype, but the first version will only be with two or three cartridges, tops - so it might not be a good indicator of the noise level.

I'd like to get at least 10 "slots" for the games. I might have to settle for less, but that's the goal right now. I'm still debating about making this a seperate "attachment" and leave the NES in it's origional case, or if I want to integrate the NES hardware into the entire unit. That's the last step anyawy, but i'm going to draw up some design ideas in illustrator while i'm waiting for the connectors to get here (still not sure if I found a supplier yet, i'm worried he's goingn to send me the wrong one.)

by on (#26769)
albailey wrote:
You can get 72 pin connectors from MCM Electronics (but they seem expensive, and I dont think can be attached properly to a regular PCB.

There's the 72 pin connector on this page
http://www.lizardlickamusements.com/pag ... ical.shtml

But I have no idea if it fits properly, etc.. Someone would need to buy one and try it out.

Al


Thanks for this, but i think i've already decided on the floppy cabels - they've been proven to work in the past, they are a lot cheaper, and they are pretyty easy to get ahold of. And if the wires already in them (the ribbon) hold up, they already come partially wired.

I might still get one of these for another project though - if it fits, it might be a good alternative to the traditional connector for other projects.

by on (#26795)
seaniccus wrote:
Oh, I get exactly what you mean now.

I think I can do that - I'll try it on my prototype, but the first version will only be with two or three cartridges, tops - so it might not be a good indicator of the noise level.

I'd like to get at least 10 "slots" for the games. I might have to settle for less, but that's the goal right now. I'm still debating about making this a seperate "attachment" and leave the NES in it's origional case, or if I want to integrate the NES hardware into the entire unit. That's the last step anyawy, but i'm going to draw up some design ideas in illustrator while i'm waiting for the connectors to get here (still not sure if I found a supplier yet, i'm worried he's goingn to send me the wrong one.)


Aww, man...i was hoping you'd have 768 games hooked up in a massive cabinet. :(

-Rob

by on (#26797)
rbudrick wrote:

Aww, man...i was hoping you'd have 768 games hooked up in a massive cabinet. :(

-Rob


As my collection grows rob... as my collection grows...

by on (#26799)
I'll start off by saying this project doesn't make any sense. Why would you want to permanently solder your games to a floppy cable instead of buying cartridge connectors? This will not only look horrible but will be extremely fragile.

If you want to go through with it, you've got two real options: digitally allow only one cartridge to be enabled at a time, but this still requires you to power each and every cart at a time. The other option is to use relays to connect VCC and use tri-states on the rest of the pins, this will cost an insane amount! It's necessary though since you certainly cannot just use a switch on +5V and leave everything else connected.

Why don't you buy a PowerPak and keep your real games in storage?

by on (#26804)
rbudrick wrote:
Aww, man...i was hoping you'd have 768 games hooked up in a massive cabinet. :(

Nintendo produced a six-slot jukebox during the NES days for use in store displays. But imagine a jukebox that uses something like an Exabyte tape robot to swap one of 200 Game Paks into a Game Pak slot.

by on (#26811)
yeh I also remember reading about one with a coin slot (differint from the arcade machine) witch was put inside hotel rooms in japan witch had at least 6 differint cartrige slots

did anybody ever make documentation for those ones? just curious

by on (#26817)
peppers wrote:
yeh I also remember reading about one with a coin slot (differint from the arcade machine) witch was put inside hotel rooms in japan witch had at least 6 differint cartrige slots

did anybody ever make documentation for those ones? just curious

That was Famicombox, and Kevin Horton documented it.

by on (#26822)
kyuusaku wrote:
I'll start off by saying this project doesn't make any sense. Why would you want to permanently solder your games to a floppy cable instead of buying cartridge connectors? This will not only look horrible but will be extremely fragile.


Who the hell said anything about soldering cartridges to the floppy cables?

by on (#26824)
If he isn't going to use connectors yet is going to use floppy cables, that would imply soldering wouldn't it?

by on (#26825)
Image

Tada! (ZOMFG NO WAI HOZAI!)

by on (#26827)
Tell me that's not a connector.

by on (#26831)
...um...that's not a connector?

by on (#26847)
OK, long story short:

1) you cannot switch VCC to the carts to select one.
2) using floppy cables is a bad idea 'cause the length and capacitive coupling will eat your signals alive.
3) This is an extremely NONtrivial device you're trying to build.


By far the easiest way will be to plug your carts in 1 at a time like normal, or get a powerpak. The famicombox has 16 cart ports on it, and they use switching for every 5 carts (15 on the front, 1 inside for the menu).

To enable/disable the carts, they operate the /CE lines to the cart's ROMs (CHR and PRG), swap the CIRAM stuff separately, and they should've run IRQs separately but didn't.

Again this is a pretty complex project to undertake, and even doing it the way I suggested (and the way nintendo did) isn't foolproof. They still have a problem with games that map stuff below 8000h, like zelda or SMB3 or anything else that uses WRAM or registers down there.

btw that animated avatar of yours is incredibly annoying.

by on (#26859)
kyuusaku wrote:
Why would you want to permanently solder your games to a floppy cable instead of buying cartridge connectors? This will not only look horrible but will be extremely fragile.


As already stated, I do not intend to solder the games themselves to anything. The plan is to make a few of those ugly connectors, such as the picture someone else posted.

Kyysaku wrote:
Why don't you buy a PowerPak and keep your real games in storage?

Those things are awesome, but I can't use them.
Although it's an unpopular opinion, I no longer consider downloading commercial roms morally acceptable, no matter how old they are. I didn't used to care, but I am going to be entering a media feild as soon as I graduate, and in the process of my education I've met numerous people who have been effected by internet piracy. While all of these people have been independents, or small publishing company comic book artists (who actually see a difference in income between ONE issue being sold or not sold) I would be a hypocrit if I said it was okay to pirate from "big companies" but not "small companies." With the Wii and the VC, I can no longer get away with calling NES roms "Abandonware," so if I want to stay on my "high horse," I can't descriminate.

Quote:

Again this is a pretty complex project to undertake, and even doing it the way I suggested (and the way nintendo did) isn't foolproof. They still have a problem with games that map stuff below 8000h, like zelda or SMB3 or anything else that uses WRAM or registers down there.


When I thought of the concept, it sounded pretty easy - the more I read on, the harder it looked - And I LIKED it. The chanllenge is exciting,and there are a lot of problems yet to solve. It's not always about what the easiest way to solve a problem is - half the fun is solving the problem. I COULD just buy the powerpak and load roms onto it, but I woulden't feel the sense of pride I would when (if) I have a finished, home-made cart-switcher set up in my entertainment center.

I'm also bound to learn a lot in the process, and the knowledge I gain might give me ideas for projects that you might find less pointless.






I'm sorry you aren't very interested in this project, and I hope to change your mind about it if I can pull it off.
In any case, thanks to everybody that's been piping in with suggestions and pointing me in the right direction. It's given me a lot to think about in this last week. (Actually, it's been a little distracting during class.)

I probably won't have time to work on any hardware until next weekend, but I have a few hours in-between classes on tuesday, so I might draw up some "cosmetic" design ideas in illustrator to get a feel for how i'd like the final unit to look. If you think of anything helpful before I get started, but sure to let me know, and i'll read up on what I have to.

(Also, I was gone over the weekend, so that's why I didn't respond to the last little conversation. Went to yosemite and did some hiking/fishing. Fun. Tired. Good to be home.)

by on (#26860)
seaniccus wrote:
Those things are awesome, but I can't use them.
Although it's an unpopular opinion, I no longer consider downloading commercial roms morally acceptable, no matter how old they are.

Many people feel the same as you, that's why they backup their very own game carts legally... If you want a project, creating a game dumper is a very good one. It's also a lot easier for someone without a bit of digital experience. To do the digital selector, you'd need:

1) to make n of those connectors, which would be pretty insane when you can probably buy 72 pin edge connectors (normal ones, not ones for NES) for like $3 each from China.

2) Either a CPLD or discrete logic circuit to select the games, if I had to do it, I would debounce a push button connected to a counter connected to a 7-segment decoder connected to the cart select logic (which selects which cartridge gets to access addresses >$4017 and the PPU control lines.

3) A cartridge + ~60 pin ribbon cable to the selection box.

4) A Power supply that can power n game cartridges because games aren't guaranteed to have a low power mode. Maybe 200mA per game. If you did 16 games, that would require a ~3.2A power supply, very hefty unless it's a switching supply. The best option would be to reuse a PC power supply which would be overkill. Altogether it's pretty frivolous and wasteful of electronic resources since even after you switch games you'll have to get up and press reset unless you modify the NES as well.

5) Perfboard to put components and connectors into.

BTW, to be really moral you wouldn't buy any used games because the developers only see the initial sale. Today to still support the developers that are still around, you would have to stick exclusively to titles on the Wii's Virtual Console.

by on (#26862)
kyuusaku wrote:
Many people feel the same as you, that's why they backup their very own game carts legally... If you want a project, creating a game dumper is a very good one.

...

BTW, to be really moral you wouldn't buy any used games because the developers only see the initial sale. Today to still support the developers that are still around, you would have to stick exclusively to titles on the Wii's Virtual Console.


As far as i'm concerned, a used product is a used product - extra copies of it arent being added to the market without the consent or knowledge of the creator. Unless stated in some sort of sale contract or terms of use, i'm pertty sure that nintendo has no legal right to object to the resale of legitimate copies of video-games. In fact, there have even been a few lawsuits in Japan that sided with the right to resell used games.

In line with this, I don't consider "rom dumping" something I would feel comfortable with.
I figure the most ethical thing for me to do is respect Nintendo's opinion in the matter, as seen at http://www.nintendo.com/corp/faqs/legal.html
However, I have noticed if you read cafefully, the mostly forbid downloading a game from the internet and playing it, not dumping it yourself - later on that page they directly call game copiers illegal. It's been said they cite "Mask Work" laws to set their prodcut outside of what is allowed to be legally copied. -They also condemn emulator use for any and all reasons - a stance I disagree with, seeing how useful they are for homebrew applications.

----

An interesting, but unrelated veiwpoint on came/movie/music copying in the modern world has very much to do with the format it's in. In the past, people have asked how downloading a movie or Mp3 is any different than recording it on a tape from a friend - and if it's not different, whats the fuss? The difference, as it turns out is actually in the quality - every copy of a copy on an analog source degrades. Companies still objected to this kind of piracy, but at least they knew the only wa one could obtain a high-quality copy of their work was from the source - in digital format, there is no loss or degredation - the 100th copy is as clear as the first. This kind of thinking has helped me get my head around copywrite violation objections.

To bring the discussion back to NES games, the games age and function less well over time if not cared for - some games (such as Zelda) require maintaince and battery replacements to function properly after an amount of time.

I'm not going to go out, find people, and berate and condem them for their rom dumping, emulator use, or copying of games (I'm looking at you DS flashcart guys with every major DS game avalible on one cart), but I certainly don't approve, and if it comes up i'll talk about it.

Uh, anyway - you said something else that interested me.

Quote:
1) to make n of those connectors, which would be pretty insane when you can probably buy 72 pin edge connectors (normal ones, not ones for NES) for like $3 each from China.


Whoo. Tell me about it, i'm not looking forward to building all of those, but what else can I do? Before I started this project, I spent awhile googling around for such connectors, but coulden't find any at a price point I was satisfied with - most places I found wanted at least 7 per connector, and they were NES style, not generic China style. You woulden't have a link, would you? It might cost me a little more, but the time it saves MIGHT be worth it. I'm still planning to build at least two of them to run some tests with (and because I think it's just plain neat that you can do that with old floppy cables)

by on (#26864)
I don't have a source for them but they're certainly out there. If you can find a wholesaler/manufacturer of 72->60 pin adapters, they might be able to hook you up. Also, you ONLY want a generic perpendicular 72-pin connector, there is no suitable way to use Nintendo connectors unless you make edge finger boards for every game, which would be the worst idea ever.

by on (#26865)
Quote:
a stance I disagree with, seeing how useful they are for homebrew applications.

I bet Nintendo would say homebrew is illegal anyway (even if this is not true).

by on (#26866)
Bregalad wrote:
Quote:
a stance I disagree with, seeing how useful they are for homebrew applications.

I bet Nintendo would say homebrew is illegal anyway (even if this is not true).


haha, no doubt. They get pretty protective. Still, I man can dream of the day Nintendo opens it's "classic" platforms to developers everywhere and opens a "hombrew distribution" channel on the wii.

by on (#26868)
seaniccus wrote:
With the Wii and the VC, I can no longer get away with calling NES roms "Abandonware," so if I want to stay on my "high horse," I can't descriminate.

It's not about "abandonware" (although many titles would fall into this category since the companies are now defunct and the games' rights are in limbo), Nintendo is trying to sell you (and perhaps resell you) games you could purchase used legally (sometimes for less money) that you have a right to dump. The way I see it to stay on your high horse you only have to keep things legal, which easily sets you aside from 99% of the rest of the world.

seaniccus wrote:
Unless stated in some sort of sale contract or terms of use, i'm pertty sure that nintendo has no legal right to object to the resale of legitimate copies of video-games. In fact, there have even been a few lawsuits in Japan that sided with the right to resell used games.

But in Nintendo's (and Sony's) eyes it's immoral.

seaniccus wrote:
In line with this, I don't consider "rom dumping" something I would feel comfortable with.

Unless you write your ROM images to actual PROMs, you aren't adding copies, illegitimate or not to the market. You are exercising your right to digitize your own property for your own private use.

seaniccus wrote:
I figure the most ethical thing for me to do is respect Nintendo's opinion in the matter, as seen at http://www.nintendo.com/corp/faqs/legal.html
However, I have noticed if you read cafefully, the mostly forbid downloading a game from the internet and playing it, not dumping it yourself - later on that page they directly call game copiers illegal. It's been said they cite "Mask Work" laws to set their prodcut outside of what is allowed to be legally copied. -They also condemn emulator use for any and all reasons - a stance I disagree with, seeing how useful they are for homebrew applications.

I don't know how you can respect their wishes sometimes but not always. I mostly respect Nintendo (largely because of their "golden age" work) but I will never consult them for morality as their stance doesn't reflect logic OR laws OR consumer rights.

seaniccus wrote:
An interesting, but unrelated veiwpoint on came/movie/music copying in the modern world has very much to do with the format it's in. In the past, people have asked how downloading a movie or Mp3 is any different than recording it on a tape from a friend - and if it's not different, whats the fuss? The difference, as it turns out is actually in the quality - every copy of a copy on an analog source degrades. Companies still objected to this kind of piracy, but at least they knew the only wa one could obtain a high-quality copy of their work was from the source - in digital format, there is no loss or degredation - the 100th copy is as clear as the first. This kind of thinking has helped me get my head around copywrite violation objections.

This analogy is quite broken; it is possible to make a "perfect" duplication of an analog tape within the ability of the recorder. No two analog master tapes are exactly even alike nor are game cartridges physically. I don't get how a ROM image is a "perfect" representation of something when it doesn't represent any of it's physical form.

Before emulators were feasible, companies often didn't know about or make a fuss about their games being pirated because it wasn't "the real thing" and they didn't consider a few bulletin-boarders or Chinese (who wasn't considered a profitable market at the time) a threat. They also didn't know if their stance (on code being the "essence" of a game cart) could hold up in court so they focused on bootlegged games' shortcomings in manufacturing quality instead of focusing on it's morality. Now that ROM images are being legally marketed, it's a whole different ball game since they chose to jump on the ROM image bandwagon, which is a flipflop on their behalf.

seaniccus wrote:
To bring the discussion back to NES games, the games age and function less well over time if not cared for - some games (such as Zelda) require maintaince and battery replacements to function properly after an amount of time.

I don't get your point here, many many games have power cells to retain SRAM for saving, so? Some games after 20 years loose their save-data, oh well, that's something that can be remedied very easily by replacing the cell. Had the owner of the cart backed up their save game using a dumper, they could restore the data back to the SRAM after the cell was replaced.

by on (#26872)
kyuusaku wrote:
Nintendo is trying to sell you (and perhaps resell you) games you could purchase used legally (sometimes for less money) that you have a right to dump. The way I see it to stay on your high horse you only have to keep things legal, which easily sets you aside from 99% of the rest of the world.
My general point is, downlaoding the rom is less excusable if the game is avalible for purchase in any form. One could argue "Metroid II:Return of Samas" is "Okay" to download because it's not avalible in any other form anymore, and the system it plays on is no longer in production. If nintendo offered Metroid II on the VC, that argument would lose value. Nintendo IS trying to resell me games that were once avalible. The games ARE still avalible legaly if you can find an old NES cart, but aside from the used market, they are not avalible for purchase anywhere else.

Quote:
But in Nintendo's (and Sony's) eyes it's immoral.

They probably know it's not "immoral," but they want to turn a profit. I have no problem with that desire, but the law is the law, and the used game market is my friend.

seaniccus wrote:
In line with this, I don't consider "rom dumping" something I would feel comfortable with.

Unless you write your ROM images to actual PROMs, you aren't adding copies, illegitimate or not to the market. You are exercising your right to digitize your own property for your own private use.[/quote] I agree, you are not adding any more physical copies the physical world, however, a copy of the rom image has now been made that was never intended to be made. As a result, untold thousands of computers now have copies of Super Mario Bros. that were not distributed, or approved for copy by nintendo. I understand their objection to that. I'm not sure how I feel about their interpertation of copywrite and "back-up" laws, but I have little to make back-ups of my own. I've never had a cartridge erase itself on me, and I have no need for a back-up. I find the whole argument interesting, but it has little effect on my desires - and it seems likely to me that most rom-dumpers probably aren't doing it to protect their investment, given the amount of roms availble on the internet.



Quote:
I don't know how you can respect their wishes sometimes but not always. I mostly respect Nintendo (largely because of their "golden age" work) but I will never consult them for morality as their stance doesn't reflect logic OR laws OR consumer rights.

It's not about respecting their wishes in the case of emulators. In their legal page, they state it as if it is a fact that emulators have NO OTHER USE THAN PIRACY - homebrew games such as Sudoku 2007, TKO Penguin, and Sack of Flour Heart of Gold proove otherwise. It's an inaccurate statement. Even if MOST emulator use is for piracy, it's not the only thing they can be used for.

Quote:
This analogy is quite broken; it is possible to make a "perfect" duplication of an analog tape within the ability of the recorder. No two analog master tapes are exactly even alike nor are game cartridges physically. I don't get how a ROM image is a "perfect" representation of something when it doesn't represent any of it's physical form.
That paragraph had no analogy or comparison to Roms or cartridges. It was just a common talking point about piracy and the introduction of digital piracy. In the past, if one made a tape from a record, your tape suffered a loss in quality from the record. The record itself was a loss in quality from the masters. Any tape you made from the FIRST tape you made of the record, would suffer more quality loss. Over so many generations, the quality would simply be lower. It's possible to have high-quality transfers to minimize the loss, or even to create a same-quality master - but for the average person with a tape recorder, loss was impossible to avoid, and it wasent a big deal. The fact that an .mp3 or a movie file suffers none of this loss is a big threat to the media industries. It comes up in a lot of discussions at school, and I think it's interesting. It's something I think about when I think about piracy, and I just threw it out there. It had little to do with the discussion of NES piracy.

Quote:
Now that ROM images are being legally marketed, it's a whole different ball game since they chose to jump on the ROM image bandwagon, which is a flipflop on their behalf.
I don't understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that because they failed to defend the code in a gamecart in the past, they no longer have claim to argue it's illegal now? Please tell me that's not what you are saying, because that's really stupid.

seaniccus wrote:
To bring the discussion back to NES games, the games age and function less well over time if not cared for - some games (such as Zelda) require maintaince and battery replacements to function properly after an amount of time.

I don't get your point here, many many games have power cells to retain SRAM for saving, so? Some games after 20 years loose their save-data, oh well, that's something that can be remedied very easily by replacing the cell. Had the owner of the cart backed up their save game using a dumper, they could restore the data back to the SRAM after the cell was replaced.[/quote]
This was a comparison to tape-loss and such. Your copy of Zelda on your PC won't suffer rusty pins, or ever need to have it's battery replaced. While nintendo may not approve of used cartridges, at least they degrade. When they offer Zelda on the VC, they can claim that your savegame will never be erased with teim - you will never have trouble getting it to work because the cardridge is old and it was treated poorly in it's youth. If emulators never had a rise on the internet, Nintendo would be the entity that could offer this kind of "Flawless" Zelda experience - due to piracy they cannot hold this claim, and it's a major threat to them -- Much like the digital piracy without quality loss is seen by the music industry as aa major threat to the film and music industries.

that's what I meant. Sorry if I was not clear enough.


I fear that this thread is getting heavily derailed. Perhaps we should start a "Roms/Intellectual-Property Ethics and Ethics of Company Policies Debate" type thread in one of the more General forums...

by on (#26873)
dont take this the wrong way but do you honsetley think you can pull off such a device?
clearley not, it would be very costley and requires an extencive background in electronics , at this point it appears your just rambleing on to try to save face. Why dont you just admit your in over your head?
I am not saying these things to be mean but I feel they need to be said

by on (#26874)
Here is a scan from an old japanese magazine to hook up 3 famicom carts up.


Image

by on (#26875)
That method will only work for the simplest and oldest games.

by on (#26876)
peppers wrote:
dont take this the wrong way but do you honsetley think you can pull off such a device?
clearley not, it would be very costley and requires an extencive background in electronics , at this point it appears your just rambleing on to try to save face. Why dont you just admit your in over your head?
I am not saying these things to be mean but I feel they need to be said


I'm pretty sure that I can get a 2-cart to work. I'll freely admit that there is more to this than I would have guessed, and it's going to be a hell of a lot harder than I thought at first, but I honestly think I can do this. And I might yet be over my head, but if I don't try to build it - I can't learn from my mistakes and I never WILL be able to build one. My older brother is an Electronic Engineer. My Uncle's business is replacing all of the electronics in private aircraft - when I run into trouble I know both of them will be happy to steer me in the right direction.

I could be wrong, but either way I will have learned something by the time I am through - If i'm lucky the end result will be something functional that I built - if I'm not, the end result will be a pile of cables, connectors, a broken Nintendo, and some newfound knowledge. It's a risk i've already accepted.

I didn't come to this fourm to make or save face. I'm not here to grow my e-penis and sound big in front of strangers. I came here because the community at NESdev has knowledge and feedback that I can use, and I can learn from them. I know I might fail, and i'm okay with that. You know I might fail (and seem to have great faith in my failure,) so be okay with it. I'm not interested in having a discussion about what I can't do - I want to discover what I can do.
So please, try to keep a positive attitude. I'm looking forward to building this because I think making things is fun, even if it is hard and requires me to gain knowledge. I can always go to the Ben Heck forums if i'm not welcome here.
I know you aren't trying to be mean, but you do intentionaly seem to be discouraging me. If I fail, it's my mistake to make - not yours. Please accept that.






That said, can we end this sort of discussion? I'm interested in making this happen in spite of my inexperience.

by on (#26877)
ok the easyest source for the connectors is nes to famicom adapters although a bit pricey to buy a lot of them lik-sang had a good bulk order price it was like 10 for $3 each includeing shipping for them but they are not around anymore but there are probubley outhers like them around

if your interested in the 0 mapper games the diagram in the image is a good option for 2 carts

by on (#26878)
seaniccus wrote:
One could argue "Metroid II:Return of Samas" is "Okay" to download because it's not avalible in any other form anymore, and the system it plays on is no longer in production. If nintendo offered Metroid II on the VC, that argument would lose value.

Someone could argue that but they wouldn't have the law on their side since the copyright holder is still around. Thats the argument many use to justify piracy, but it's a world different than backing up your own games, which could be legitimately used in an unofficial console such as a software emulator. Do you feel it's immoral for Famiclones to exist? Personally I don't although I very much dislike clones.

seaniccus wrote:
As a result, untold thousands of computers now have copies of Super Mario Bros. that were not distributed, or approved for copy by nintendo. I understand their objection to that.

I think everyone does.


seaniccus wrote:
I'm not sure how I feel about their interpertation of copywrite and "back-up" laws, but I have little to make back-ups of my own. I've never had a cartridge erase itself on me, and I have no need for a back-up. I find the whole argument interesting, but it has little effect on my desires - and it seems likely to me that most rom-dumpers probably aren't doing it to protect their investment, given the amount of roms availble on the internet.

Some reasons why people dump their own games:

-They want to play a game they legally own, but is at a different location.
-They play their dumps in emulators to keep their environment uncluttered with gamestuff.
-They dump their own games to keep their intentions legal.

When someone wants to "protect their investment" they probably want to keep their valuable games in immaculate condition which regular use might compromise.

Anyways, you can't blame ROM dumpers for people's illegal acts, it's the people that propagate the files and not everyone does it.
Quote:
Even if MOST emulator use is for piracy, it's not the only thing they can be used for.

And without ROM backups homebrew wouldn't be where it is today.

Quote:
The fact that an .mp3 or a movie file suffers none of this loss is a big threat to the media industries.

Most of the MP3s I've heard have had noticeable loss in quality, especially back in the Napster days (VBR files weren't abundant) when the music industry began it's fit.

Quote:
I don't understand what you are saying here. Are you saying that because they failed to defend the code in a gamecart in the past, they no longer have claim to argue it's illegal now? Please tell me that's not what you are saying, because that's really stupid.

I'll sorta reword it: before emulators the companies saw console copiers as a mild to moderate threat because the piracy was contained within relatively small circles. Then emulators came around and piracy grew exponentially and they weren't happy. When UltraHLE came around they were pissed. Nintendo has since badmouthed unofficial emulators and ROM images to confuse consumers about what's mostly beyond their control. They argue (have argued?) that emulators and bootlegs give an inferior experience to the consumer, while many informed consumers would argue that their VC and minigames are inferior to unofficial emulators and naturally bootlegs. Now that they're in the IP business they're now of course enthusiastic about emulator technology which I would call a change of heart or a flipflop.

seaniccus wrote:
Your copy of Zelda on your PC won't suffer rusty pins, or ever need to have it's battery replaced.

It won't suffer because it doesn't have pins, but that can also be detrimental since a ROM image's lack of authenticity makes it valueless today, only because there's no blackmarket value due to the internet's saturation of ROMs.

seaniccus wrote:
While nintendo may not approve of used cartridges, at least they degrade. When they offer Zelda on the VC, they can claim that your savegame will never be erased with teim - you will never have trouble getting it to work because the cardridge is old and it was treated poorly in it's youth.

In reality an unencrypted ROM image stored on a PC is better suited to long term possession since it doesn't rely on the existence of Wiis, only free emulators which very likely will outlast the Wii. What Nintendo doesn't want to acknowledge (understandably) is that when you buy a used game, and make a backup, you can have the best of both worlds, the authenticity of a true original cartridge and convenience of emulators.

seaniccus wrote:
If emulators never had a rise on the internet, Nintendo would be the entity that could offer this kind of "Flawless" Zelda experience - due to piracy they cannot hold this claim, and it's a major threat to them -- Much like the digital piracy without quality loss is seen by the music industry as aa major threat to the film and music industries.

Emulators have been around for a long time, before PCs even. If emulators hadn't been published to the WWW, it's likely that Nintendo would never have been pressured to fight fire with fire, but that doesn't change the fact that developers like to put out emulators in the form of compilation games.

by on (#26879)
I'm not going to go through the trouble to quote this time, but I see where our points intersect. I mostly agree with you - I'm just don't have the passion for backups as you do. It's hard to argue with your points. I still don't think Rom dumping is for me. I agree with you that its not ideal to punish the minority of the right for the majority of the wrong.

Peppers wrote:
ok the easyest source for the connectors is nes to famicom adapters although a bit pricey to buy a lot of them lik-sang had a good bulk order price it was like 10 for $3 each includeing shipping for them but they are not around anymore but there are probubley outhers like them around

if your interested in the 0 mapper games the diagram in the image is a good option for 2 carts


The closing of Lik-Sang was a real loss for the online gamer community. You can find some of their products scattered around, but nobody has really filled the gap. They would have won that lawsuit if they had the money to fight it - there's nothing illegal about importing products for another market.

by on (#26880)
that is not relevant 72-60 adapters are still readily available for purchase and I am sure there are resellers with give you a price discount to ordering larger amounts hit google and find a good deal

by on (#26881)
peppers wrote:
that is not relevant 72-60 adapters are still readily available for purchase and I am sure there are resellers with give you a price discount to ordering larger amounts hit google and find a good deal

Oh yeah, I know - I already have enough connectors to try the 2-cart, I just won't have the time to work on it for a few days. If I think I can build a bigger system after I figure the 2 cart setup, i'll look online for a good source of connectors so I dont have to build so many.

I was just saying that it's really toobad lik0sang is gone. Those guys were awesome.

by on (#26882)
too "awsome" thats why they needed to be destroyed

fyi that is also why the man is keeping me down

by on (#26885)
kyuusaku wrote:
4) A Power supply that can power n game cartridges because games aren't guaranteed to have a low power mode. Maybe 200mA per game. If you did 16 games, that would require a ~3.2A power supply, very hefty unless it's a switching supply. The best option would be to reuse a PC power supply which would be overkill. Altogether it's pretty frivolous and wasteful of electronic resources since even after you switch games you'll have to get up and press reset unless you modify the NES as well.



Could you get past the need to press reset by making use of the CIC?
What I mean is, you are going to press a switch button to change games, could the CIC be "temporarily" disconnected, causing the internal NES CIC to trigger a reset. After the reset has been triggered by the NES, as long as the new game is selected and the CIC re-connected, so it should work (I think).

Al

by on (#26886)
You're certainly right if system doesn't have it's CIC disabled.

by on (#26888)
How long do you think the CIC (on the jukebox) would need to be disconnected for the CIC in the NES to register that there was a mismatch and re-trigger a reset?

I'm getting more and more intrigued with this idea.

Al

by on (#26910)
arg.

I'm having a really hard time finding connectors, or even old floppy cables locally. I know a few places I can order either online, but I was hoping to work on it a bit tonight.

There's one place in Morgan Hill and another in Downtown San Jose that might have it - i'm going to try to make the drivce to check at least one of them out today.

by on (#26913)
There's very little chance you'll find the connectors in any local stores, even in the Bay Area. You shouldn't however have a hard time finding ribbon cables! The reason why most people use floppy/IDE/SCSI ribbon in the first place is because IDC ribbon can be easily salvaged from junk systems.

by on (#26921)
It's annoying. Mostly because we had a ton of these just a few months ago, but got rid of them all, thinking we woulden't need them for anything.

Is there a specific name (besides 5.25" floppy cables) for ribbon cables with connectors like these:
Image

There is a small shop in morgan hill that might have them, but I showed up 10 minutes after closing, so I wont know until friday at the earliest unless I can get a more specific name. (I kind of sucked at describing them over the phone.) I can find tons of "Contemporary" style floppy connectors, but unless there is some trick I dont know, I cant use those.

Again, a shot of the kind of connector, and "the dream" here:
Image

Any terms this is commenly refered to that might help me find it? (Or find a place to order it online so I can be 100% sure i'm ordering the right thing?)

by on (#26922)
Once again, simply cutting off a cartridge will initiate BRK to $0000, & another cartridge can be inserted, assuming the next game doesn't assume empty ram is #00. I've tried this before.

The whole CIC theory, however, won't work. It will continue to reset.

by on (#26924)
atari2600a wrote:
Once again, simply cutting off a cartridge will initiate BRK to $0000, & another cartridge can be inserted, assuming the next game doesn't assume empty ram is #00. I've tried this before.

The whole CIC theory, however, won't work. It will continue to reset.


It shoudl be pretty easy to make the BRK to $0000 model to work, so i'm planning to go with that - a few seconds delay between switching the games should do it. If all else fails, i'm happy to simply hold the reset button in-between switches (and i'm going to do it anyway for games with save cabaility) - though i'm going to see what I can do to keep it automatic.

I've found a grand total of TWO 5.25 cables, enough to make ONE whopping connector. I need at least two more to make a prototype thing. I'm going to check the local salvage shop tommorrow.

Apparently, you can also use those connectors to read SD cards. It's not useful for this project, but I might make use of it elsewhere knowing it.

by on (#26952)
CONNECTORS!

http://logan-1.mirror.waffleimages.com/ ... 1d638e.jpg

Ugh. These were a bitch to find. The guy at my local surplus computer salvage place had a few universal cables for $3 each. I picked up enough to make a prototype 2-game switch -- If it works and I feel confident, I have some sources (thanks to those of you who PM'd me) to get some full NES 72 pins at about the same price. I'll just use those next time to make it easier - I don't think i'm going to find any more of these locally.

APparently fry's ussually carries them, but the one on Brokaw (downtown san jose) didn't have them, and they would probably be $9 there anyway - not worth it.


My friend Mike is getting here with there spare system in tow tommorrow, so we'll see if we can get most of the work done by nightfall Saturday. With any luck, i'll have some pictures (and maybe a video) of a working two-switch up by midday sunday.

If nothing else, i'll post an update with the problems we ran into.

by on (#26957)
seaniccus wrote:
It's annoying. Mostly because we had a ton of these just a few months ago, but got rid of them all, thinking we woulden't need them for anything.

Is there a specific name (besides 5.25" floppy cables) for ribbon cables with connectors like these:
Image


Why go through all that trouble? It's silly and will be fragile and intermittant. An NES cart has a 2.5mm pitch connector, while those things are .1" (2.54 mm). It may work but it's gonna be somewhat flaky. Not to mention the board thickness is wrong too. Carts are 0.043" thick while those IDC connectors are designed for 0.062" thickness boards... Meaning the cart will be "floppy" in the floppy cable connector.

I just checked ebay and found someone selling 5 game genies for $25, which ended up being $7 a connector with shipping. Just take those off the boards and get a perfect connector designed to fit. There's alot of hits for "game genie" and they seem to be fairly cheap.

If you really got a chubby to do this still, I suggest switching the following signals: (CPU) A14, /CE, IRQ. (CHR) CIRAM A10, /RD.

And if you have more than 5 carts, put tristate bidirectional buffers on D0-D7 for each CHR/PRG for every 5 carts, and single direction buffers for A0-A13 on CHR, /WR, /A13. And A0-A14, R/W, M2 for PRG.

Anything else will be frought with peril. Don't forget bypassing caps either or else things will probably be flaky, oh and you will need a new power supply. The 7805 in the NES probably can't handle more than 2 or 3 carts at once.

by on (#26958)
It can if you cut the VCC to all but one cart. Damn am I the only one reading this thread all the way through?:P

by on (#26962)
atari2600a wrote:
It can if you cut the VCC to all but one cart. Damn am I the only one reading this thread all the way through?:P


It sure seems like it. I don't see any reason why a VCC switch shoulden't work just fine. Unless there's something i'm missing, this is really just the main trick to this problem, and if anything it's just going to be slightly annoying to wire and time consumign. It's funny - I read it on the first page, forgot about it, thought of it on my own, and then re-read the thread and realized i'm not so smart.

Anyway, that's what i'm trying saturday.


[quote=Kevtris]Why go through all that trouble? It's silly and will be fragile and intermittant.[/quote]
No it wont. If half of the projects from Ben Heck are any indication, they make a pretty decent connector - and a connector made from these cables typicaly works much better than the 72 pin native to the system.

Also, $7.00 a connector is way to pricy for me - my income is pretty low, so i'm kind of working on a budget. I only bouht enough parts to make four connectors today because it's all i could afford - - and that's with a cost of about $3 a connector.

by on (#26963)
I do not think cutting the power would work because the people who know what they are doing said it would not, if you want to power the carts off the NES cutting the power would be necessary but your will probably need to do more than that

according to that magazine scan cutting OE (output enable) and CE (chip enable) for the ROM's dose work (witch apperintley would not do for newer games) witch also supports simply cutting the vcc would not do since that would have been an easier way to do it if it did

by on (#26967)
peppers wrote:
I do not think cutting the power would work because the people who know what they are doing said it would not, if you want to power the carts off the NES cutting the power would be necessary but your will probably need to do more than that


If something requires electricty to function, it stops functioning when it loses its source of electricity. I don't see any way the games could function without a source of power.

I ussually find that the simplist sultion is ussually the best one. We'll see if it holds true today. (Hopefully. There's always the chance we wont finish today, but i'm going to try my hardest to get SOMETHING by the time I get to bed.)

by on (#26969)
seaniccus wrote:
I don't see any way the games could function without a source of power.


But because of the CMOS architecture you are providing a source of power. By having the GND and signals still connected, the chip will pull from those and start giving you outputs. All those "unpowered" chip outputs collide with the ones you want and nothing works.

seaniccus wrote:
I ussually find that the simplist sultion is ussually the best one.

Simplest solution is also frequently wrong, which is why there are multiple posts from the smartest people here telling you the correct way (besides the off topic rom stuff). Basically:
- Cutting VCC will not work
- You need to control the select lines to each cart
- Multiple carts will need buffers and another power source
- Long floppy cables will kill everything unless you have buffers

Nobody is trying to discourage you from doing this. The ones that know electronics are just pointing out that it isn't as easy as soldering some wires. On a comical note, while they are good with the dremel and hot glue the ben heck forums aren't known for their technical expertise :)

by on (#26971)
Can't you just cut the GNDs as well?

EDIT: OR couldn't 2 diodes (one for each GND line) do the trick?

by on (#26972)
atari2600a wrote:
Can't you just cut the GNDs as well?

EDIT: OR couldn't 2 diodes (one for each GND line) do the trick?


Hahaha, no.

You have to understand that the address/data lines have 1.8MHz signals whizzing around on 'em. The chips, when unpowered, are gonna load the bus down and probably corrupt the data on it.

This is also why long floppy cables don't work very well. The high frequency and long lines = capacitive coupling (and to a lesser extent inductance) which makes the signals look more like a sawblade than a squarewave. As a result, shit don't work right, or it will be flaky, if it does anything.

So as we keep saying:

a) bigger power supply
b) buffer groups of carts individually
c) don't use more than a few inches of ribbon cable
d) do not switch power/ground on the carts
e) DO switch A14, /CE, IRQ on the CPU side and A13/CIRAM A10/RD on the CHR side
f) DO get proper connectors
g) read up about how logic circuits work

failure to do these things will result in it not working (or if it does work by chance, it will be flaky and unreliable)

by on (#26974)
I would also like to point out that, based on my experience, doing things the good way on the first try is better than making several non-working revisions just because you wanted to save a few bucks and were too much in a hurry.

You'll actually end up spending more if you don't know what the fuck you're doing and have the impression that you can totally ignore important aspects of electronics without too much problems.

In short: leave the hackendorns and join those who aren't totally clueless, because you won't go far without doing some wikipedia reading.

Note that I'm merely just trying to help by pointing out the blatant reality.

by on (#26978)
I would recommend building some simple circuits involving PRG/CHR ROMs (like a basic EPROM cart), and get the feel for how things work first.

by on (#26979)
Huh. Well, i'm afraid i don't really have any pictures, because we only got so far.

Until today, I didn't know about the CMOS situation, and after talking it over with Mike (who knows a fair deal more about electrnoics than I) we decided that model wouldent work out, and even if the cmos didn't draw current, feeding signal and current to inactive boards would be a dumb idea anyway.
Not wanting the day to be a waste, we spent some time going over other ideas that WOULD work, and the only one we could think of was my horrible original idea - a switch that switched every wire from one cartridge to another - or a switch that re-directed 72 wires!
That's a terrible idea, and it's far more complicated then I reall felt like doing - Also, it would cost more than I can afford, and I can't afford much.
We talked over what I COULD afford and we looked at what I had.
We had the connectors, now cut off and ready to be doubled up on catridges, still attached to ribbon cable.
Maybe, JUST MAYBE if we had a connector for ribbon cabels, and we set it up right, we could "switch" cartridges by switching which ribbon cabel went where with IDE connectors. It wasen't a great idea - but the parts store was just down the street and double male connectors are only a dollar - so we went and picked up two.

We wound up with this:
Image

That's a Universal ribbon cabel with a modified 5.25 connector. We figured we would use two 5.25 for the main board in place of the standard 72 pin - connect the ribbons to another set of ribbons going to another set of 5.25s on the cart. Not the greatest idea, but I was out of money and we just wanted to see SOMETHING for our work, and if a makeshift cardridge slot extender that could be switched with ANOTHER of the same was all we could manage that day, then that was it.

We tried it, and we got a white blinking screen. To test it, I put the standard 72 back on, and got the same result. In fact I coudlent get any cart to work at all in the systems sandard set up.

"I thought you said your NES worked?" I asked him
"Oh, that one is still in Daivs. I thought the connector was just a little dusty."
Great. Wrong nes.

So I flipped it over and disabeled the 10Nes, perked up the bottom row of the pins on the 72 - and now it works better than mine.

By this time it was 930, and we were done for the day.

So long story short, information I found out today pretty much spelled doom for the project, but we tried anyway. I built some interesting parts, but we failed to determine if they would do the job due to other complications. We DID use a voltemeter to proove that they could move current fine, but no practical test was successfuly performed.
In the end, I re-learned some electronic prinicpals i'd long since forgotten, and I built some connectors that I can still use for SD card projects, and a NES on a chip portable project I might do in the near future. If I have some time during the week, I might test out the terrible connector switch thing we built today on my NES, but my hopes are pretty dim for it. Still, I had fun.


Oh! In return for fixing his NES and entertaining him all day, mike gave me his old NES Advantage Joystick that he's not using anymore! THis thing is great, I used to have one when I was a little kid, but it felt too bug for me to use! It took up my whole LAP! Now it's just about the right size, and it feels great!




p2 wrote:
]... you wanted to save a few bucks and were too much in a hurry.

Just to clear something up here - It's not that I want to "save a few bucks," it's that I only HAVE a few bucks. I work part-time at a local comic shop. I make about 200-250 a month, and most of it goes to Gas and school. If I COULD spend more on projects I really would, trust me - but as is, I have to entertain myself with what I have - and it entertains me to see how much I can do with very little.

p2 wrote:
don't know what the fuck you're doing and have the impression that you can totally ignore important aspects of electronics without too much problems.
Please don't uneccissarily curse. It's annoying and it makes you sound like an asshole.
Also, ignorance of electronics is far different than ignoring the principals of it. I've admitted pretty freely here that I am pretty amature, and I enjoy learning though trial and error.
In the future, if you want to help, please explain things or point those who need help in the right direction. It would also be nice if you did in a polite manner, rather than acted annoyed that others know less than you and are excited about learning more. Perhaps you weren't acting this way, but it's how your writing came accross, at least.
I had fun doing this, even though I fell quite short of my origional goal. Please dont ruin that fun, it was the process I enjoyed, and I accepted at the start that failure is part of that process.



















....

Thanks to everybody that helped, i'm going to peek around and see what other projects there are, and see what else is in my range. If nothing else (aside from parts and experience) this project got me to disable my first 10nes, which showed GREAT results. I'm going to look through the documentaiton and see what I think i'm capable of now, and do reading for what I think I might be capable of in the future.

Also, double thanks to Atari, for being polite, helpful, and encouraging. You're alright in my book.

by on (#26981)
I do not know why you keep refusing to read kevtris'es posts he has told you what needs to be switched. I am no expert but I know who are the right people to listen to for more info read his last 2 posts

"switch A14, /CE, IRQ on the CPU side and A13/CIRAM A10/RD on the CHR side"
Switches on theses lines is what is necessary for 2 carts and possibly 3 carts to work and up to 5 if you use a power source with more amps(if I understand correctly) also keep your wires as short as possiple

I would like to know how much amperage is nessasery. To find this info yourself connect a multimeter on the 5v+ then multply the readout by 5 if noone voninteers that info

Then "And if you have more than 5 carts, put tristate bidirectional buffers on D0-D7 for each CHR/PRG for every 5 carts, and single direction buffers for A0-A13 on CHR, /WR, /A13. And A0-A14, R/W, M2 for PRG. " also make sure your have an adequate power supply every carts you add

picking up 5v ac adapters would be the easyest to come by power supplys

by on (#26986)
peppers wrote:
I do not know why you keep refusing to read kevtris'es posts he has told you what needs to be switched. I am no expert but I know who are the right people to listen to for more info read his last 2 posts


It's not that i'm "Refusing to read" his posts, its that before I started the project, I thought like Atari, that he was being over-complicated and I could solve the problem using the ACC and ground. By the time he mentioned that the chips were CMOS I had already started the project and had not mentioned the forums since then - When I DID check the forums halfway though the day, I learned this - talked it over with my partner and looked somethings up, and agreed that on top of a few other problems we had not figured out yet, it was entirely possible that the carts could draw power even though the ground and acc were not hooked up.

At that point, the project became too expensive for me to finish (and I mean, really out of my price range, not "too cheap" I mean "If I finish this project I wont have enough money to buy gas to drive to school and work this month") - so we tried a few things with what we had, and in the end I decided to settle with some lessons learned, a successful 10nes disable, some parts I can use for a NES on a chip project, and a "like new" NES Adavnatage Arcade controler my friend no longer wanted.

As I said, I might see if I can get my "plug system" to work if I have time to fiddle with it after school this next week, but at this point I consider the experiment a failure. I still think it's something that can be done, but I don't have the time or money to do it.


Kevtris has some good ideas - Don (mike's father) came up with a solution that's pretty similar, and i'm pretty sure it would work - but it would simply cost more than I have, so i'll move on to other projects.


I'm done with this project. we can keep the thread open for discussion, but my particular part in this project has been played. If I manage to get my ghetto plug setup to do anything, i'll let you know, but generally i'm done and don't need any more suggestions about what i'm doing wrong, because i've already done it wrong and i'm not building anything anymore.

Thanks though

by on (#26992)
-Whether it's CMOS or TTL or <insert family>, your idea still wouldn't work.

-The "ideas" said about how to make it work are the *ONLY* ways to make it work.

-Your friend may be knowledgeable about electronics but I don't see how he could come up with a similar solution without a lot of prior technical NES experience which random people don't have. If he did his homework to help you, you should have made the connection between the kevtris who wrote the documents he would have used to understand the signals and the kevtris in this thread.


Understand that when you ask for help, and other people try to discourage you, but you decide to go with it anyway, then people tell you how to do it, and you don't follow their advice, and make excuses like the ones I responded to above people get quite annoyed.

As a general rule, I don't distrust people who say things I know nothing about. I may be skeptical but I do some research before I discount their advice.

by on (#26999)
kyuusaku wrote:
-Whether it's CMOS or TTL or <insert family>, your idea still wouldn't work.


You don't seem to be very good at reading.
Let's try again:

seaniccus wrote:
i'm done and don't need any more suggestions about what i'm doing wrong, because i've already done it wrong and i'm not building anything anymore.


Keywords are: I'm done and I don't need need any more suggestions about what i'm doing wrong

I've already admitted more than once that my ideas and theroies were wrong and did not work out. I also said before that i don't care because I had fun and learned things anyway
As I stated before, I did not come here to be discouraged, I came to learn what I could do. Unfortunetly for me, I made assumptions based on the knowledge I did have, and found myself wrong because of the knowledge I did not have. Regardless of this, I enjoyed the process throughly, save for the part where some people apparently decided to take my mistakes personally.

Again, thanks everybody for your help. Thank you double to those who were polite and encouraging. Thanks anyway to those who were not. The ideas presented sound great, and I really do wish I had the money to try them. It's not an excuse, it's a fact.


If you want to turn this into a conflict, please leave me out of it.

by on (#27086)
seaniccus wrote:
peppers wrote:
I do not know why you keep refusing to read kevtris'es posts he has told you what needs to be switched. I am no expert but I know who are the right people to listen to for more info read his last 2 posts


It's not that i'm "Refusing to read" his posts, its that before I started the project, I thought like Atari, that he was being over-complicated and I could solve the problem using the ACC and ground.


I find it interesting that you totally ignored my posts, because I was being "overly complicated". BTW, Atari is NOT known for being overly complicated- their hardware is as bare bones as they could get away with. If you're thinking about those "useless" caps on the joystick inputs that Heckendorn says are not needed... well, try saying that to the FCC.

They serve two purposes: 1) they remove interference radiated by the joystick cables (since they basically are antennas due to the long length of wire). and 2) they add some protection to the inputs so that static electricity won't blow out the port chip if you plug/unplug controllers.


And no, the method I explained in detail IS the simplest way to achieve the desired goal. You have to switch 5 signals per cart:

A14, /CE, and IRQ for the CPU.... and CIRAM A10 and /RD for the CHR.

The reason is you want the carts to see addresses 0000-3FFF when they are supposed to be "off", and IRQs have to be multiplexed 'cause they are outputs and are not open collector or anything.

On the CHR side, pulling /RD high will totally disable everything on the CHR side, and CIRAM A10 is needed for mirroring feedback.

This IS THE SIMPLEST WAY to do it.

If you wish to use more than 5 or so carts, you MUST BUFFER THE SIGNALS to preserve their integrity if you want it to work at all.

Quote:
By the time he mentioned that the chips were CMOS I had already started the project and had not mentioned the forums since then - When I DID check the forums halfway though the day, I learned this - talked it over with my partner and looked somethings up, and agreed that on top of a few other problems we had not figured out yet, it was entirely possible that the carts could draw power even though the ground and acc were not hooked up.


You need to stop listening to your friend that doesn't seem to know a whole lot about electronics. Also, it does not matter what kind of chips they are- CMOS, TTL, frito-lay. Never ever apply signals to a chip that is not powered. It only ends in grief due to the protection diodes and other doo-dads inside them.


Quote:
At that point, the project became too expensive for me to finish (and I mean, really out of my price range, not "too cheap" I mean "If I finish this project I wont have enough money to buy gas to drive to school and work this month") - so we tried a few things with what we had, and in the end I decided to settle with some lessons learned, a successful 10nes disable, some parts I can use for a NES on a chip project, and a "like new" NES Adavnatage Arcade controler my friend no longer wanted.


This project shouldn't cost a whole lot. Also if you are serious about electronics, it's a good idea to collect discarded equipment. Answering machines, 386 computers, etc. so you can pull (free) parts. Need a cap or resistor? just find one on the board. Free and you get the part now instead of waiting.

Quote:
As I said, I might see if I can get my "plug system" to work if I have time to fiddle with it after school this next week, but at this point I consider the experiment a failure. I still think it's something that can be done, but I don't have the time or money to do it.


Oh it can be done. Nintendo did it on the Famicombox. I have pics and lots of hardware on how that works posted already (I think someone gave the link but here it is again)

http://tripoint.org/kevtris/mappers/fam ... index.html


Quote:
Kevtris has some good ideas - Don (mike's father) came up with a solution that's pretty similar, and i'm pretty sure it would work - but it would simply cost more than I have, so i'll move on to other projects.


I'm done with this project. we can keep the thread open for discussion, but my particular part in this project has been played. If I manage to get my ghetto plug setup to do anything, i'll let you know, but generally i'm done and don't need any more suggestions about what i'm doing wrong, because i've already done it wrong and i'm not building anything anymore.

Thanks though


Yah, well next time try to actually listen to what people say in the thread. Seriously, not to dis you or anything, but I think I know how the NES works... seeing how I actually created an entire NES+ all the mappers at the gate level in an FPGA, and I RE'd that Famicombox, oh and I RE lots of carts and I even made the CopyNES.

by on (#27088)
I know this thread is already dead, but I still don't see how cutting the VCC couldn't fix the whole PSU problem. (*NOT* as a means of selecting a cart)

by on (#27089)
atari2600a wrote:
I know this thread is already dead, but I still don't see how cutting the VCC couldn't fix the whole PSU problem. (*NOT* as a means of selecting a cart)


If you read my previous post I say why.

/me cuts and pastes:

Quote:
Also, it does not matter what kind of chips they are- CMOS, TTL, frito-lay. Never ever apply signals to a chip that is not powered. It only ends in grief due to the protection diodes and other doo-dads inside them.


This will, as we say, "load down" the bus causing the signals to get corrupted and nothing works (and as a bonus it will try to power the ROMs and shit thru the signal pins, via the afore-mentioned input protection diodes).

Trust me on this one. It Does Not Work(tm).

by on (#27091)
Is this true of all pins, or only input/output pins?

For instance, address lines on a rom chip are input only, would they put a load on the bus w/o power?

by on (#27092)
drk421 wrote:
Is this true of all pins, or only input/output pins?

For instance, address lines on a rom chip are input only, would they put a load on the bus w/o power?


Yah generally they will. All pins on chips generally will have two diodes- one to power, one to ground.

Sometimes this wasn't the case on earlier ROMs- NMOS EPROMs and stuff could occasionally work without power. But this is rare these days, and you have to look at the datasheets very carefully.

by on (#27099)
This may be considered threat hijacking, but I think it's along the same lines, so please excuse me.

So I was thinking about making a nrom multicart by having a switch on each oe. I was going to have 3 or 4 games on it.

I've made a SNES reproduction using these instructions and it works great:

http://www.romlab.prv.pl/

That just switches the oe on the eproms, so I thought I would just do that for the multicart. I had planned to use original roms, but I then realized that PRG roms don't seem to have oe.

From what Kevtris says, I'll also have to have a switch on the PRG a14 and ce and the CHR side oe and ce. Am I missing something or is this correct? What's the a14 switch for?

I think from what was said here, the oe only switch would only work because eproms are different than roms?