Well, to begin, I tried finding answers through search engines on the internet but 95% of people don't really know anything (just wild assumptions and speculation) and its too hard to sift through the crap and determine what is true and what isn't.
OK, so, I finally bought one of these and have had it about 2 weeks, and so far I like it, I just have a few questions that have until now gone unanswered:
#1 OK, apparently the "NES on a chip" everyone likes to name drop applies here. Obviously it must fairly accurately replicate the processes of a real NES in order to work at all, so what exactly is missing that keeps it from working with the 6~10 (depending on who you ask) incompatible titles? also, whats the deal with the Paperboy glitch where the game boots fine but the controller won't work?
#2 Could some of the incompatability be due to regional differences between the NES and the Famicom? I haven't been able to confirm whether or not the two are identical, so, for instance, does a US copy of Castlevania III work on an authentic Famicom with a 72->60 pin converter? I know this system is basically a Gametech Neo Fami with a 72 pin connector instead of a 60 pin, so it crossed my mind that it could be a reason.
#3 Has anyone ever tried putting an NES test cart (the one with the numbers/letters/colors that animate) in a Yobo to see if it passes? Does it pass? If it fails, where does it fail?
#4 Can someone link me to a picture of a "NOAC" without the gloppy cover? Also, what is the reason for the glop? quick assembly? corrosion resistance? electrical insulation? intellectual protection? all of the above?
#5 is it possible that the "inaccurate" sound and the chip/mapper missing that causes the few incompatible titles are due to copyrights rather than patents so to keep from infringing copyrights Yobo must deliberately alter the sound and leave out whatever chip/mapper that is necessary for the incompatible games? (long sentence, lol)
#6 Why won't Yobo FC controllers (USA version) plug into an NES while NES controllers work fine on a Yobo? Is it relatively easy to modify an FC controller to work? A major reason I bought the Yobo was so I could use its excellent turbo controllers on my NES. I think its because the NES pins are too thick for the Yobo controller, but just thought I'd ask.
That's all I can think of for now, please no "the Yobo sucks because its NOAC" posts without any actual answers (thats what I got on another NES board) and please no "search noob" flames either, I did search but I only got partial answers. Hopefully someone on here can help me out and give me some straight answers, I find most games play perfectly on the Yobo and for some reason I really like the idea of companies making new systems to keep retro gaming alive (unless you are an über purist, as I'm sure most of you are).
The only reason yobo is "crap" is the fact that it had to be cheap. It isn't that bad, but they didn't have the money to fully replicate (they didn't need to) It has nothing to do with famciom>nes.
Jeroen wrote:
The only reason yobo is "crap" is the fact that it had to be cheap. It isn't that bad, but they didn't have the money to fully replicate (they didn't need to) It has nothing to do with famciom>nes.
well that covers #2, anyone else with answers for the rest?
All NoaC are basically the same, it has nothing to do with the brand name. AFAIK the problem with incompatible titles is that the makers didn't know how to properly hook up the cartridge slot to the chip and broke compatibility with a few games that used the disconnected signals.
All the sound issues stem from the fact that they messed up inside the chip, and so all NoaC clones have the same sound issue.
Clones are very very accurate since they're cloned at a very low level, they will certainly pass all the tests.
There are other reasons to dislike clones than the few broken games and sound, I don't like clones just because they're always poorly fabricated and never convey the essence of the authentic console.
I appreciate your responses, but you are still speculating. I am looking for 100% citeable proof one way or another, i.e. someone that disassembled one and took pictures and pointed out a flaw or missing chip etc. or someone that knows the specific workings of it down to the bare circuitry. Generalizations without references are no good to me.
I know what you mean about clones tending to be low quality. The Yobo FC (and I guess the Generation NEX, though its way too much for what it is) is actually not to bad. I was skeptical at first but I find the controllers are actually pretty solid and the system isn't terrible, it just seems cheap because its so incredibly light. At the very least it's as good as the TV plug n play games like Ms. PacMan or the Sega Legends collection.
http://www.nesplayer.com/pirates/neofami.htm they took one apart and you can see the circuit board is actually pretty nice. It could be better, but its not bad at all.
#1: Every single flaw in the design of common Famiclones like the the NEX and Yobo is not known. That would be like asking of a detailed explanation of every flaw in the Windows operating system. A few problems have been figured out in detail, but nobody wants to spend the time debugging a crappy piece of electronics. They'd be better off spending their time studying the real hardware and designing a better clone. Also, you should realize that more than 6 to 10 NES and Famicom games have compatibility issues with the NOAC based clones.
#2: The problems are due to design flaws, some of which only show up with NES games and others with Famicom games. I have never tested the USA Castlevania III on a Famicom. As far as I know, it should work.
#3: The NES test cart doesn't test the kinds of things that are problems on clones. Even crappy emulators that run on a PC many years ago can pass the NES test cart's tests. The real tests are the NES and Famicom games.
#4: The glop for the NOAC is just an extremely cheap way to protect the circuitry of a "chip" that is mass produced. Without the glop on it, you'd still need a microscope to be able to see any detail.
#5: The NES system does not contain mappers, the cartridges contain them. The sound is inaccurate because of design flaws in the NOAC. This has been confirmed via black box testing of Famiclones. It has nothing to do with copyrights. If you want to know the details, search these forums for "noac", "nex", "famiclone", and "yobo".
#6: Not sure, but there was a similar issue with NEX controllers. Search these forums for the details, as it is probably the same issue.
17daysolderthannes wrote:
I am looking for 100% citeable proof one way or another, i.e. someone that disassembled one and took pictures and pointed out a flaw or missing chip etc. or someone that knows the specific workings of it down to the bare circuitry. Generalizations without references are no good to me.
Then do you own homework.
17daysolderthannes wrote:
#1 what exactly is missing that keeps it from working with the 6~10 (depending on who you ask) incompatible titles?
Those games are either MMC5 or four screen mirroring. The NOAC does not fetch graphics in the same way, so the MMC5 cannot track it correctly. There may also be voltage problems since some NOACs are now 3.3v instead of 5v. Many (most?) NOAC systems are wired wrong so four screen mirroring games don't work. NEX is a perfect example of this. No idea about Paperboy...
17daysolderthannes wrote:
#4 Can someone link me to a picture of a "NOAC" without the gloppy cover?
Picture wouldn't be very interesting. The NOAC die is ~0.1" x 0.12" and would just look like shiny metal. There are ~80 tiny wires that go from the die to the pcb, all covered by the glob. I have a die around here somewhere but I may have sneezed it away.
17daysolderthannes wrote:
#5 is it possible that the "inaccurate" sound...
If they were trying to avoid patent issues, they would have to change more than the sound. Someone figured out it is mainly just the duty cycles reversed, likely from not understanding or not caring.
17daysolderthannes wrote:
#6 Why won't Yobo FC controllers (USA version) plug into an NES while NES controllers work fine on a Yobo?
Haven't heard this before, so I just checked it. The holes on the Yobo controller plug are too small for the diameter of the NES socket pins. You may be able to force it in there or cut away some of the plastic. Otherwise just cut the cord from a broken NES controller and solder it on there.
17daysolderthannes wrote:
"the Yobo sucks because its NOAC"
Yobo/NEX/FC Twin sucks!
17daysolderthannes wrote:
I find most games play perfectly on the Yobo
Must not have played too much of the original recently! Every color and almost every sound is different. I am certainly not a purist but the different sounds in games like SMB are super annoying. I also really notice the quality of plastics so I put the NEX a bit above the Yobo. At least all the people who don't notice the difference give me hope for future projects
kyuusaku wrote:
17daysolderthannes wrote:
I am looking for 100% citeable proof one way or another, i.e. someone that disassembled one and took pictures and pointed out a flaw or missing chip etc. or someone that knows the specific workings of it down to the bare circuitry. Generalizations without references are no good to me.
Then do you own homework.
well, I was assuming someone already did it. This is NesDev afterall and supposedly the gurus of NES going ons, to me it seems like an afternoon's work to see the differences between a famiclone and an NES and what got lost in translation. Calling the sound differences and such a "design flaw" seems a bit too convenient and more like an excuse for not having a better answer. Sorry, but this is 22 year old technology, I seriously doubt a qualified electrical or computer engineer couldn't make an identical sound chip using today's technology. I may be sounding like a dick and get flamed for this but don't get mad at me because I asked questions no one apparently has the complete answer to.
bunnyboy wrote:
17daysolderthannes wrote:
#1 what exactly is missing that keeps it from working with the 6~10 (depending on who you ask) incompatible titles?
Those games are either MMC5 or four screen mirroring. The NOAC does not fetch graphics in the same way, so the MMC5 cannot track it correctly. There may also be voltage problems since some NOACs are now 3.3v instead of 5v. Many (most?) NOAC systems are wired wrong so four screen mirroring games don't work. NEX is a perfect example of this. No idea about Paperboy...
17daysolderthannes wrote:
#4 Can someone link me to a picture of a "NOAC" without the gloppy cover?
Picture wouldn't be very interesting. The NOAC die is ~0.1" x 0.12" and would just look like shiny metal. There are ~80 tiny wires that go from the die to the pcb, all covered by the glob. I have a die around here somewhere but I may have sneezed it away.
17daysolderthannes wrote:
#5 is it possible that the "inaccurate" sound...
If they were trying to avoid patent issues, they would have to change more than the sound. Someone figured out it is mainly just the duty cycles reversed, likely from not understanding or not caring.
17daysolderthannes wrote:
#6 Why won't Yobo FC controllers (USA version) plug into an NES while NES controllers work fine on a Yobo?
Haven't heard this before, so I just checked it. The holes on the Yobo controller plug are too small for the diameter of the NES socket pins. You may be able to force it in there or cut away some of the plastic. Otherwise just cut the cord from a broken NES controller and solder it on there.
17daysolderthannes wrote:
"the Yobo sucks because its NOAC"
Yobo/NEX/FC Twin sucks!
17daysolderthannes wrote:
I find most games play perfectly on the Yobo
Must not have played too much of the original recently! Every color and almost every sound is different. I am certainly not a purist but the different sounds in games like SMB are super annoying. I also really notice the quality of plastics so I put the NEX a bit above the Yobo. At least all the people who don't notice the difference give me hope for future projects
thank you for mostly answering my questions, except for the "famiclones suck" comment (joke perhaps?). Yeah, the quality of plastics of the NEX may be a little better but considering a yobo is $25 shipped and a NEX is a minimum of $60 I think the Yobo edges it out. Also, to say every color and every sound is different is being super anal about it. I played several games back to back and the differences were so small I forgot which system I was playing until I looked down to see which one was powered on. To me its like hearing a song on computer speakers vs. a car CD player, its the same music, just certain parts are emphasized differently, hardly enough to complain about in my book. I mean, really, if you play a DOS game on 2 different DOS computers they will play a little differently, so I find slight differences from NES to clone acceptable, though improvements are always welcome.
edit: oh yeah, I said copyrights, not patent. Patents have expired which is why these clones are legal now. I am pretty certain exact sounds would fall under copyrights rather than patents, though I am not certain since I originally thought NES sound was strictly midi but now it seems it is a low quality wave form, clarification would be welcome on this.
It's not copyright. There are four waveforms in the
NES APU's pulse channels, and waveforms this simple cannot be copyrighted.
$4000/$4004: pulse waveform selection bits (NES)
$00: 1/8 duty cycle (10000000)
$40: 1/4 duty cycle (11000000)
$80: 1/2 duty cycle (11110000)
$C0: 3/4 duty cycle (00111111) (sounds exactly like 1/4 because the ear cannot hear inversion of a waveform)
Based purely on listening to sounds on an authentic NES vs. common NOAC based famiclones, it appears that the common NOACs appear to get the patterns for $40 and $80 reversed. I don't know what they do with the rarely used $C0 pattern.
Quote:
also, whats the deal with the Paperboy glitch where the game boots fine but the controller won't work?
Paperboy expects bit 6 to be set when reading the controller state, this is due to open-bus behaviour, effectively ORing the value with $40.
Quote:
#2 Could some of the incompatability be due to regional differences between the NES and the Famicom? I haven't been able to confirm whether or not the two are identical, so, for instance, does a US copy of Castlevania III work on an authentic Famicom with a 72->60 pin converter? I know this system is basically a Gametech Neo Fami with a 72 pin connector instead of a 60 pin, so it crossed my mind that it could be a reason.
Castlevania III works just fine in a real Famicom if your converter connects
all the active pins. Yobo and other NoaC-based pin converters do not and therefore that game will not work properly even on a real Famicom unless you use a true converter.
Great Hierophant wrote:
Quote:
#2 Could some of the incompatability be due to regional differences between the NES and the Famicom? I haven't been able to confirm whether or not the two are identical, so, for instance, does a US copy of Castlevania III work on an authentic Famicom with a 72->60 pin converter? I know this system is basically a Gametech Neo Fami with a 72 pin connector instead of a 60 pin, so it crossed my mind that it could be a reason.
Castlevania III works just fine in a real Famicom if your converter connects
all the active pins. Yobo and other NoaC-based pin converters do not and therefore that game will not work properly even on a real Famicom unless you use a true converter.
So, in other words, could the compatability have a little bit to do with the fact it is originally a Famicom clone since it just a 60 pin connector expanded to 72 pin leading the extra pins to dead grounds (thats what I've heard)? Is the compatability with the Neo Fami (Japanese market version of Yobo FC) compatable with all Famicom games? I don't recall seeing any on the incompatable list when looking around...
tepples wrote:
It's not copyright. There are four waveforms in the
NES APU's pulse channels, and waveforms this simple cannot be copyrighted.
$4000/$4004: pulse waveform selection bits (NES)
$00: 1/8 duty cycle (10000000)
$40: 1/4 duty cycle (11000000)
$80: 1/2 duty cycle (11110000)
$C0: 3/4 duty cycle (00111111) (sounds exactly like 1/4 because the ear cannot hear inversion of a waveform)
Based purely on listening to sounds on an authentic NES vs. common NOAC based famiclones, it appears that the common NOACs appear to get the patterns for $40 and $80 reversed. I don't know what they do with the rarely used $C0 pattern.
So is the sound data purely stored on the cartridge the way an MP3 is stored on a hard drive, i.e. the player just plays back the waveform? I see what you are saying here (more or less) but the sounds don't seem swapped (i.e. plays drums when supposed to play bass) unless you are meaning the intensity is swapped (i.e. drums play louder than normal and bass is more subdued, because I find things like this do happen). I'm not saying your wrong, I'm just not fully understanding since I don't know 6052 or whatever the NES is actually programmed in.
To you and everyone else though, thanks for coming forward with this stuff, its good to hear stuff that isn't just blatant "it sucks cause its cheap" you hear all over the rest of the internet, you guys seem to know at least SOMETHING about how this stuff works and what the potential differences might be.
hap wrote:
Quote:
also, whats the deal with the Paperboy glitch where the game boots fine but the controller won't work?
Paperboy expects bit 6 to be set when reading the controller state, this is due to open-bus behaviour, effectively ORing the value with $40.
english please, lol, I don't know NES code or processes THAT well. Also, bottom line, how does this function differently from other NES games in that respect?
17daysolderthannes wrote:
tepples wrote:
Based purely on listening to sounds on an authentic NES vs. common NOAC based famiclones, it appears that the common NOACs appear to get the patterns for $40 and $80 reversed. I don't know what they do with the rarely used $C0 pattern.
So is the sound data purely stored on the cartridge the way an MP3 is stored on a hard drive, i.e. the player just plays back the waveform?
It's a programmable synthesizer, and code on the cartridge specifies which waveforms to generate. Listen to what I'm talking about:
nes and noac would sound like this(to play .ogg in WMP you'll need
illiminable codecs; to play .ogg in QT you'll need
XiphQT codecs)
Quote:
I see what you are saying here (more or less) but the sounds don't seem swapped (i.e. plays drums when supposed to play bass) unless you are meaning the intensity is swapped (i.e. drums play louder than normal and bass is more subdued, because I find things like this do happen).
Based on the limited time I've had with NOAC based famiclones at a mall kiosk, I didn't notice any problems with the triangle wave ("bass") or noise ("drum") channel.
tepples wrote:
Based on the limited time I've had with NOAC based famiclones at a mall kiosk, I didn't notice any problems with the triangle wave ("bass") or noise ("drum") channel.
Well, it varies with games, SMB 3 seems to have the most variations (of games I've played). For instance, on the World 2 overworld map, the drums hit MUCH harder than the rest of the sounds and almost drown out the other sounds. Also, things like coins make more of a "boing" sound than a sharp "plink/clank" sound. It's really odd the way this happens. More than anything, I find the treble just seems to be turned up with respect to other sounds. I dunno, I'm not much use in the realm of audio equipment.
Oh yes, and another thing, (and some of you may want to brush this off immediately, but give it a chance), I have an emulator for Mac OS X called "RockNES 2.5.0" and it WILL NOT run Castlevania III at all as is reported on the Generation NEX and Yobo FC, I'm sure amongst others. However, Akumajou Densetsu, the Japanese version of Castlevania III, appears to run flawlessly. Does anyone know if Akumajou Densetsu will run on a Gametech Neo Fami or Yobo FC/Generation NEX with a 72 -> 60 pin adapter? If it does, this could very well mean all of the famiclone compatability issues stem from just incomplete conversions from 60 to 72 pin cartridge slots and not from missing components in the NOAC itself. I would suggest trying other Famicom games with a converter, but of the incompatible list (that I'm aware of) the only game with an alternate Japanese version is Castlevania III, the rest of the games (to my knowledge) did not have a Famicom version at all.
But the USA Castlevania 3 is not the same hardware as the Japanese Akumajou Densetsu. In Japan it uses the VRC6 mapper chip, while the USA version uses the MMC5. VRC6 doesn't have nearly the graphics expansion of the MMC5. Likely your (old, inaccurate) emulator just doesn't support the MMC5.
17daysolderthannes wrote:
Oh yes, and another thing, (and some of you may want to brush this off immediately, but give it a chance), I have an emulator for Mac OS X called "RockNES 2.5.0"
Does
RockNES 5.00 beta 3 for Windows behave differently?
tepples wrote:
17daysolderthannes wrote:
Oh yes, and another thing, (and some of you may want to brush this off immediately, but give it a chance), I have an emulator for Mac OS X called "RockNES 2.5.0"
Does
RockNES 5.00 beta 3 for Windows behave differently?
dunno, does it play one but not the other? The point I am making (or trying to make) is that the incompatability with some US games may be due to the fact that NOAC was developed as a Famicom player and so rather than being from incompetence or negligence from the designers of the NOAC the issues are actually from slight variances in hardware between the two systems combined with the fact that the 72 pin is perhaps an "incomplete" conversion from the 60 pin and really just allows US catridges to fit rather than completely converting the NOAC to a US NES clone.
Another interesting (and sort of unrelated) thing I just discovered, as it turns out the Jakks Pacific Namco/Ms. Pacman/Atari Flashback use NOAC with ports of the original games to Nintendo format. It appears the NOAC is one of the most versatile backbones of compact and inexpensive gaming machines in existence.
17daysolderthannes wrote:
Another interesting (and sort of unrelated) thing I just discovered, as it turns out the Jakks Pacific Namco/Ms. Pacman/Atari Flashback use NOAC with ports of the original games to Nintendo format. It appears the NOAC is one of the most versatile backbones of compact and inexpensive gaming machines in existence.
Thats more related than you think. The use of NOAC in other things is a big reason it hasn't been fixed for accuracy. While they may sell 50K NES clones, theres literally tens of millions of other devices (Atari, INTV, other TV systems, computers, kiosks, childrens toys, etc) that use the NOAC. None of those care about perfect compatibility, so nobody will put in the time and money to correct the known problems. They simply don't care. They especially don't care when people don't notice the differences from a real NES. NOAC is now being replaced by 16 bit or higher chips like ones from Sunplus, so a cheap correct NES clone isn't likely.
bunnyboy wrote:
17daysolderthannes wrote:
Another interesting (and sort of unrelated) thing I just discovered, as it turns out the Jakks Pacific Namco/Ms. Pacman/Atari Flashback use NOAC with ports of the original games to Nintendo format. It appears the NOAC is one of the most versatile backbones of compact and inexpensive gaming machines in existence.
Thats more related than you think. The use of NOAC in other things is a big reason it hasn't been fixed for accuracy. While they may sell 50K NES clones, theres literally tens of millions of other devices (Atari, INTV, other TV systems, computers, kiosks, childrens toys, etc) that use the NOAC. None of those care about perfect compatibility, so nobody will put in the time and money to correct the known problems. They simply don't care. They especially don't care when people don't notice the differences from a real NES. NOAC is now being replaced by 16 bit or higher chips like ones from Sunplus, so a cheap correct NES clone isn't likely.
Well, I mean, the small differences are negligible for most games and they don't bother me at all. Like I've said before, if you play a DOS game on 2 different computers, it will play a little differently, so I just treat it like that. I would still like to know if Akumajou Densetsu will play on a Yobo FC or Neo Fami because that would mean aside from the sound variance it is actually a dead on Famicom replication. I just don't see any other way to explain the already amazing compatability and accuracy (in terms of actual gameplay) to a real NES.
And while I'm talking about TV games, has anyone made (besides hackers) a Genesis on a chip system like the one used in the Radica Sega Legends TV Game? From what I understand, Sega used off the shelf components rather than custom chips and therefore is easier to replicate. It wouldn't surprise me at all if a Genesis clone was 100% compatible given that fact.
hap wrote:
Quote:
also, whats the deal with the Paperboy glitch where the game boots fine but the controller won't work?
Paperboy expects bit 6 to be set when reading the controller state, this is due to open-bus behaviour, effectively ORing the value with $40.
one more time, can anyone out there explain this a little more clearly (using less NES terminology)? Also, is there some way to rectify this or is it pretty much an unfixable glitch?
Is there any chance that your attitude problem is just related to the fact that your clone is not as good as you thought it was? It's never too late to go for an actual NES you know, there are still plenty of them around.
tokumaru wrote:
Is there any chance that your attitude problem is just related to the fact that your clone is not as good as you thought it was? It's never too late to go for an actual NES you know, there are still plenty of them around.
attitude problem? how do you figure? I have a real NES, a mint one in fact, that I've had since I was ~5 years old and it still has an original 72 pin that is probably in better shape than most people's replacement connectors. I bought my Yobo FC online for $18 plus $6 shipping just to check it out, and I like it so much I have it in my entertainment center instead of my real NES (mostly for conservation of my mint system, as well as better reliability and I like the Yobo controllers which won't fit a real NES).
I just find NOAC an interesting concept and I don't think people are giving it the respect it deserves and just brush it off as inferior "junk" rather than really acknowledging it and perhaps finding ways to correct the few problems with them. In fact, I bet Yobo or Messiah would pay out a decent sum of money if someone took the time to figure out how to get compatability to 100%, so in many ways its time better spent than just meddling with old NES's which Nintendo would destroy if they could so they could sell you the games again on virtual console.
I mean, honestly, I don't even like paperboy that much and I could give a shit about Castlevania III or Gauntlet, so for me my Yobo is pretty much fine the way it is, but as an Engineering major (mechanical) who plans to go to law school for patent law, the NES and clone situation is the exact kind of situation I would be dealing with so I find it intriguing. Maybe some of you should as well.
Oh, and if anyone read far enough to read this, could someone inform me about the paperboy controller glitch in more laymans terms?
bit# 76543210
its expecting bit 6 to be set along with the status of the button being read back. ($40=off, $41=on)
never-obsolete wrote:
bit# 76543210
its expecting bit 6 to be set along with the status of the button being read back. ($40=off, $41=on)
so how is that different from any other game, and why does this not happen with a Yobo system? (I am not fluent in NES programming language)
17daysolderthannes wrote:
In fact, I bet Yobo or Messiah would pay out a decent sum of money if someone took the time to figure out how to get compatability to 100%
They are in fact (real fact, not just guessing) completely uninterested in spending the $10k-100k of dev costs to get better compatibility. Yobo only cares about cost. They will do what they can to save a couple cents. Paying $1-2 per good NOAC is not an option when they are currently paying $0.10-0.20. Messiah doesn't care because they are planning to use the extra graphics features of the broken NOAC. To fix MMC5 they would have to remove those features.
17daysolderthannes wrote:
...just brush it off as inferior "junk" rather than really acknowledging it and perhaps finding ways to correct the few problems with them. ... Maybe some of you should as well.
There are 3 main people that have problems with them. First is just those that follow others, who cares about them. Next is the super picky people who will notice any tiny difference, only original is good enough. Then there are (hopefully) most of the people here who are working on real games. They design something with graphics and sound specifically for the NES, then it is all different on the NOAC. Music sounds wrong, colors are different, etc. Average person may not notice, but these people have been working hard to get their game perfect. Lots of my stuff simply doesn't work on the clones because they are made as cheap as possibly, like tiny power supplies.
17daysolderthannes wrote:
Oh, and if anyone read far enough to read this, could someone inform me about the paperboy controller glitch in more laymans terms? so how is that different from any other game?
In the NES, one of the wires on the controller is not connected (open bus). When Paperboy reads the controller it is expecting that to return a 1. In the NOAC that wire is connected to 0, so the game doesnt get the result it wants. This is inside the NOAC chip, so it is not physically fixable. You could likely write a game genie code to get Paperboy to work. Most other games will mask off that wire, so they don't care if its a 0 or 1.
bunnyboy wrote:
They are in fact (real fact, not just guessing) completely uninterested in spending the $10k-100k of dev costs to get better compatibility. Yobo only cares about cost. They will do what they can to save a couple cents. Paying $1-2 per good NOAC is not an option when they are currently paying $0.10-0.20. Messiah doesn't care because they are planning to use the extra graphics features of the broken NOAC. To fix MMC5 they would have to remove those features.
Thanks for the other stuff your wrote, but I'm not so sure about a couple things here. For one, Yobo doesn't do anything but distribute the systems and put their name on it, the systems are made by Gametech (
http://www.nesplayer.com/pirates/neofami.htm and also see
extra WIIIIIIIIDE machine translated URL and if anyone can read the original Japanese compatability list I would be grateful) and therefore are designed to be Famicoms, the Yobo systems are just Neo Famis with a 72 pin inserted instead. Elsewhere on this forum (
http://nesdev.com/bbs/viewtopi ... light=yobo )
"As we all know, Yobo's Famiclones are not 100% compatible, even though the underlying NES-on-a-chip is reasonably sound. Among the reasons for this is thaty the Yobo devices do not bring the /CIRAM line to the cartridge edge. Games that manipulate this line, usually for 4-screen mirroring or MMC5 games, will not work right on their NES and Famiclones. "
Now, whether this comes from being designed to work strictly with 60 pin Famicom games or just hasty workmanship on the part of Yobo and Messiah I cannot be sure. To me it seems that the NOAC should really be called FOAC for Famicom-on-a-chip because whether or not they play NES games they were designed for a Famicom marketplace and thus probably didn't have the US or PAL market in mind since until the past couple years were technically illegal and couldn't be sold here (officially anyway). There are probably only a small handful of people with the necessary tools and experience to know if this /CIRAM line can be attached or not since from what I understand the circuitry of the NOAC is basically microscopic, but to me it would be nice to know if the wiring or the NOAC itself is to blame for this incompatability.
If Yobo doesn't even fabricate their stuff, they are even less likely to want to make the big investment in a new chip
On the NOAC datasheet I have (sorry not public) there isn't even a CIRAM /CE pin on the die. Even dissolving the epoxy glob and soldering micro wires you wouldn't be able to add it. This breaks all four screen and MMC5 games. Both the 72 pin and 60 pin connectors have the CIRAM /CE pin, so it is not a NES/Famicom connector problem. It likely isn't Yobo/Gametech/Messiah/etc being lazy with wiring, it is the original NOAC makers like Novatek/Sino Wealth/Trojan missing something fairly basic.
However Messiah makes it even worse by using that pin to detect if a NES cart is plugged in. Games like Rad Racer 2 which use the pin will cause an electrical short and the system will not turn on. It is possible that could break components, worst case (not likely) would be a fire. I don't know if that is from laziness by not testing before production, or not understanding the system, or just because they farmed out the electronics to a Chinese company that didn't care or didn't know.
Quick edit: The NOAC pinout on kevs page shows a CIRAM /CE pin, so it still could be bad wiring inside the clones. Will have to open them up again...
bunnyboy wrote:
If Yobo doesn't even fabricate their stuff, they are even less likely to want to make the big investment in a new chip
On the NOAC datasheet I have (sorry not public) there isn't even a CIRAM /CE pin on the die. Even dissolving the epoxy glob and soldering micro wires you wouldn't be able to add it. This breaks all four screen and MMC5 games. Both the 72 pin and 60 pin connectors have the CIRAM /CE pin, so it is not a NES/Famicom connector problem. It likely isn't Yobo/Gametech/Messiah/etc being lazy with wiring, it is the original NOAC makers like Novatek/Sino Wealth/Trojan missing something fairly basic.
However Messiah makes it even worse by using that pin to detect if a NES cart is plugged in. Games like Rad Racer 2 which use the pin will cause an electrical short and the system will not turn on. It is possible that could break components, worst case (not likely) would be a fire. I don't know if that is from laziness by not testing before production, or not understanding the system, or just because they farmed out the electronics to a Chinese company that didn't care or didn't know.
Quick edit: The NOAC pinout on kevs page shows a CIRAM /CE pin, so it still could be bad wiring inside the clones. Will have to open them up again...
Hmm are you sure there's no CIRAM enable? Let me check real quick. I think there is, they just call it something else. Yeah you're right, the Trojan part doesn't have an enable input... strange.
And yah, the NES on a chip that I pinned ages ago DOES have it. I am not sure who made that chip, but it is not one of the current manufacturers. I believe it was fabbed by UMC (united microelectronics corp). They made the NES on a chip that is in the Game Axe, and it is an actual REAL chip... the only NOAC I have seen other than the one in the Dr PC Jr. that is not a glop-top. Both use the same part which is marked:
UMC / UM6561CF-1 / 9711A (made 11th week of 1997) / M51601 (lot number / wafer number)
It is an 80 pin QFP, 24*16 pins (X/Y)
Sooo, UMC apparently calls this a 6561CF which is kinda neat. The Trojan part number is 6168C.
Does the game axe run MMC5 carts? I think it does; I honestly don't remember now. And speaking of that, MMC5 famicom carts exist all day long. Think all those Koei titles and Just Breed of course. The only difference between a famicom and NES at the cart level is the pinouts are slightly different, and the NES added 12 useless pins- 10 useless expansion port pins, and 4 were used for the lockout chip (2 from the extra 12, and two for the extra sound passthru).
Both have the exact same nametable RAM setups though. Interestingly, the chip I pinned awhile back is designed to be a famicom on a chip, because CHR A11 is moved compared to the NES pinout. Other than that, the pinout of the two are "straight through" pretty much. The NES on a chip products usually have the connections in "connector order" so you can wire it all up without using vias.
thanks guys, thats some pretty good info, I guess most of them just decided 97% compatability ain't bad, especially once you consider the broken games are crap for the most part (Castlevania III and TMNT III are the only ones that I would want to play, and I'm not even sure TMNT III is incompatible since I've only seen it on one list of incompatible games, Rad Racer II blows). Is more info like this posted on a regular URL versus a forum where I can read it? Since apparently there is more info on this than some have acknowledged I'd like to do further reading on the matter without having to bug all of you about it.
17daysolderthannes wrote:
For one, Yobo doesn't do anything but distribute the systems and put their name on it, the systems are made by Gametech
Gametech are in fact just a Japanese distributor of cheat/clone hardware, so I'll bet you the real manufacturer is an unnamed one in China/Taiwan.
17daysolderthannes wrote:
thanks guys, thats some pretty good info, I guess most of them just decided 97% compatability ain't bad, especially once you consider the broken games are crap for the most part (Castlevania III and TMNT III are the only ones that I would want to play, and I'm not even sure TMNT III is incompatible since I've only seen it on one list of incompatible games, Rad Racer II blows).
Many of the games that do not run correctly on the Yobo/NEX are great games. Did you ever consider that maybe you aren't very familiar with the NES/Famicom?
ccovell wrote:
17daysolderthannes wrote:
For one, Yobo doesn't do anything but distribute the systems and put their name on it, the systems are made by Gametech
Gametech are in fact just a Japanese distributor of cheat/clone hardware, so I'll bet you the real manufacturer is an unnamed one in China/Taiwan.
well yeah, it says "made in china" on the controllers and console, so yes, they are made in china. Almost every company nowadays has their product made by a company in china, its a matter that Gametech is the company responsible for designing it, or at least commissioning its design and Yobo just put their name/logo on the USA versions. Almost no company really "makes" their own products, they just design them and have them made at a facility that may make hundreds of different products, its way too expensive for all but the biggest of corporations to really have their own factories.
Jagasian wrote:
17daysolderthannes wrote:
thanks guys, thats some pretty good info, I guess most of them just decided 97% compatability ain't bad, especially once you consider the broken games are crap for the most part (Castlevania III and TMNT III are the only ones that I would want to play, and I'm not even sure TMNT III is incompatible since I've only seen it on one list of incompatible games, Rad Racer II blows).
Many of the games that do not run correctly on the Yobo/NEX are great games. Did you ever consider that maybe you aren't very familiar with the NES/Famicom?
do I need to do a play by play?
according to wikipedia for the FC Twin (for some reason the FC isn't listed but I believe its the same underlying circuitry for the NES portion)
Bandit Kings of Ancient China ->crap
Castlevania III: Dracula's Curse ->I liked the first one better
Dragon Warrior II->crap
L'Empereur->crap
Rad Racer II->just play Rad Racer 1, its better
Paper Boy (Disputed.)->decent, but I can easily live without it
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles III: The Manhattan Project->probably the one I would like to play the most, but I'm not even 100% sure this one is really incompatible since it isn't on the NEX's list as incompatible, so I don't know
granted these are my opinions, but on the other hand you have SOOO many great titles that play just fine (perhaps sounding a little different) like Super Mario 3, Ninja Gaiden, Contra & sequels, Mega Man 1-6, Rush N Attack (I am sooo addicted to this game lately), Monster in My Pocket, Bionic Commando, RC Pro Am, Super Spy Hunter, Duck Tales and other Disney games made by Capcom, Excitebike, Tennis (play it, trust me, you will be a believer) and the list goes on. There are so many good games that will work on the Famiclones that the loss of Castlevania III and TMNT III pales in comparison to the addition of a reliable pin connector and the fact that you have a new system that hasn't been abused for 20 years (assuming you buy an NES used) all for ~$25. I don't want this to turn into a debate of NES vs. Clone as thats just going to have 2 stubborn sides of which is the best buy, but I for one am interested in these consoles and enjoy learning about them and the ins and outs of why some things don't work right.
Oh yeah, another thing I would like to ask since this is my "Annoy NesDev with my endless Yobo FC questions" thread: I noticed that when I switch on the Yobo FC, the picture doesn't actually "load" (I guess I should say) until I switch it to Video 2 (the A/V input channel its connected to). To describe better, whenever the system is turned on, it first shows kind of vague outlines of the current game screen, then slowly colors them in. I say slowly when it takes like 2~3 seconds max, but I noticed if I turn the system on and then switch over to video 2 that process doesn't occur until I actually am on video 2, so if I wait a minute it will load the picture and colors during a game demo rather than the title screen. On the other hand, if I have already let it load and then switch back to the TV with the Yobo still on and then go to Video 2, it remains loaded and fully colored and doesn't need to reload. I find it strange that the CPU runs the game data but doesn't output an image until I actually have it switched to the correct input channel, what on earth causes it to do this? (I hope I made this clear enough, it sounds confusing even to me, but hopefully anyone that owns one of these will know what I'm talking about)
The main problem is those "compatibility" lists gloss over graphics corruption in games that boot. Good examples are the world map in Zelda and the menu system in River City Ransom on the Yobo (and possibly FC Twin and NEX?). Those would be listed as fully compatible because they run, but they aren't close to correct.
I don't know Famicom games but you would be missing out on Just Breed, one of the most impressive NES/Famicom games.
For the input it may just be your TV having trouble picking up on the Yobo video signal. The Yobo might be slowly increasing the output voltage so the TV has to decide when it is noise and when it is actually a signal.
bunnyboy wrote:
For the input it may just be your TV having trouble picking up on the Yobo video signal. The Yobo might be slowly increasing the output voltage so the TV has to decide when it is noise and when it is actually a signal.
So this is a fairly uncommon occurence? I haven't tried it on any other TVs so it very well could just be something with this one. None of my other video game systems do this including NES, SNES, PS2, Wii, N64.
As for the glitches in Zelda and River City Ransom, I was never a fan of either one, if I want to play a brawler its TMNT 4: Turtles in Time or Streets of Rage 2 for me, I can barely to stand to play any others after playing those two perfect examples of the genre. So yeah, I can see why people would complain since alot of people do like those games, but its still about on par with backwards compatability of first party systems (PS2 wasn't 100% compatible with PSX, etc.) Even taking glitched games into account, that still leaves somewhere between 90%~95% that run flawlessly (except audio), still not bad.
17daysolderthannes wrote:
As for the glitches in Zelda and River City Ransom, I was never a fan of either one, if I want to play a brawler its TMNT 4: Turtles in Time or Streets of Rage 2 for me, I can barely to stand to play any others after playing those two perfect examples of the genre. So yeah, I can see why people would complain since alot of people do like those games, but its still about on par with backwards compatability of first party systems (PS2 wasn't 100% compatible with PSX, etc.)
In other words, since the widely acclaimed classics The Legend of Zelda, River City Ransom, Castlevania III, and Dragon Warrior II do not run correctly on the Yobo and NEX, they aren't worth playing. What about these games, are they worth playing?
Code:
Challenge of the Dragon
Cheetahmen II
Crystal Mines
Donkey Kong Classics
Gauntlet
Gemfire
Gunsight
Jordan vs. Bird: One on One
Just Breed
King Neptune's Adventure
L'Emperuer
Laser Invasion
Menace Beach
Metal Slader Glory
Nobunaga's Ambition 2
Pipe Dream
Rolling Thunder
Romance of the Three Kingdoms 2
The Incredible Crash Test Dummies
The Krion Conquest
Uncharted Waters
WWF King of the Ring
WWF Wrestlemania Steel Cage Challenge
By the way, I have an HD-TV that I can sell you for the same price as other HD-TVs. The only channels that properly work on it are old school analog channels, but all of the channels that are exclusively available in HD aren't worth watching... and those that are available in both look just as good in analog as they do in HD.
A lot of people like Just Breed - it's a mix of Dragon Warrior with Fire Emblem, and it takes advantage of the MMC5 for very colorful and detailed graphics. The other games are either games most people find at most slightly above average or pretty bad (Cheetahmen II in particular).
17daysolderthannes wrote:
but its still about on par with backwards compatability of first party systems (PS2 wasn't 100% compatible with PSX, etc.) Even taking glitched games into account, that still leaves somewhere between 90%~95% that run flawlessly (except audio), still not bad.
But this isn't "next gen" or "backwards compatibility". It is same gen, same architecture, not software emulation. It would be like the slim PS2 not playing 5-10% of the PS2 games library, while changing every color and many sounds on all the other games. You personally may not notice or care about those changes, but I am only looking at the technical not the opinion. When the entire screen is different, that is not flawless. You could say it is flawfull, or awful for short
I have notased the sprite movements seem to be a bit differint on the "NOAC's" as well, I dont find them worth useing sence you better off even with emulation
btw I do not remember any psone games witch will not work on the ps2 all of the PSone hardware in included in them
That expanded list of incompatible games is mostly unlicensed garbage, cheetahmen II? come on, there were only 1,500 copies of that game even made, its starting to sound like games are worth playing because they won't run on a clone, lol. I'm not a fan of RPGs at all and never have been, the only RPG I ever really enjoyed was Chrono Trigger and thats just because its so well put together, I believe GamePro gave it 5's across the board when it first came out. I have not noticed a sprite not animating right on any of the games I've played, all glitches and even the flickering seems to be exactly the same as a real NES, the one exception is areas that cause slowdown on a real NES can be a bit more slowed down, but it actually helps you because it gives you a "The Matrix" effect. Also, that HD TV analogy is completely off base, a more accurate analogy would be that the colors are 2 shades lighter than a "standard" HD TV and 6 out of 750 channels don't come in, including the bowling channel, the watch paint dry channel, the deep fat fryer channel, QVC, among others that aren't worth the time of day. Honestly, if there was such an HD TV as the one I just described and it was significantly cheaper than a used regular HD TV and "original" HD TVs couldn't be purchased new, I would probably buy it. So, actually, the HD TV analogy makes the clones look even better.
Just to reiterate, I'm not here to argue over if clones are better than a real NES, or even if they are a better alternative to a used one, I'm just wondering about why certain things on the clone are the way they are out of sheer curiousity, don't get bent out of shape over it.
peppers wrote:
I have notased the sprite movements seem to be a bit differint on the "NOAC's" as well, I dont find them worth useing sence you better off even with emulation
btw I do not remember any psone games witch will not work on the ps2 all of the PSone hardware in included in them
no, there were like 4 or 5 PSX games that weren't compatible with PS2, though I can't remember which ones they were, I think most of them (or all of them) were Japanese-only releases, but there definitely were some, I remember reading about it in a magazine.
bunnyboy wrote:
17daysolderthannes wrote:
but its still about on par with backwards compatability of first party systems (PS2 wasn't 100% compatible with PSX, etc.) Even taking glitched games into account, that still leaves somewhere between 90%~95% that run flawlessly (except audio), still not bad.
But this isn't "next gen" or "backwards compatibility". It is same gen, same architecture, not software emulation. It would be like the slim PS2 not playing 5-10% of the PS2 games library, while changing every color and many sounds on all the other games. You personally may not notice or care about those changes, but I am only looking at the technical not the opinion. When the entire screen is different, that is not flawless. You could say it is flawfull, or awful for short
Actually, now that you mention it, the slimline isn't 100% compatible with PS2 games (ha!). The PS2 hard drive doesn't have a place to attach to the slimline, therefore you can't play Final Fantasy XI (11) because it needs the hard drive, and thats a "critically acclaimed super awesome mega fantastic" game, and I'm sure it beats the pants off of any of the NES RPGs. Also, the first shipment of PS2s weren't compatible with dual layer DVD's so Sony had to replace them when it was discovered that Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas wouldn't play on them (and I'm sure other games since). In Japan, there are even more games that require the hard drive so you lose about...5-6 licensed games, JUST LIKE THE FAMICLONES! Not trying to be a dick here, just pointing out my comparison was accurate.
17daysolderthannes wrote:
Actually, now that you mention it, the slimline isn't 100% compatible with PS2 games (ha!).
Notice I never said slimline vs normal PS2 is 100% compatibility, just that its far better than 5% completely broken and 100% partially broken (ha?). Yes a few games don't work, there are a couple games that won't work on the real NES top loader like NWC. But you are still glossing over the almost 100% inaccuracy of the NOAC video, and the 20% (random guess, 2 of 5 parts from 2 of 5 channels?) audio inaccuracy in every game which is the whole reason many people say NOACs are cheap junk.
17daysolderthannes wrote:
you can't play Final Fantasy XI (11)
And using your logic, I hate all Final Fantasy games so that one doesn't count no matter how good it is! Dragon Warrior 1 forever! I can't read Japanese so those games don't count either! 100% perfect compatibility!
I actually don't like any FF games, but thats a fake argument. Can't talk about compatibility while ignoring games because you don't like them, or features because you don't notice them. Inaccuracy is technical, quality is opinion. Around here I care about the technical, so even Cheetahmen 2 is important.
17daysolderthannes wrote:
That expanded list of incompatible games is mostly unlicensed garbage, cheetahmen II? come on, there were only 1,500 copies of that game even made, its starting to sound like games are worth playing because they won't run on a clone, lol. I'm not a fan of RPGs at all and never have been, the only RPG I ever really enjoyed was Chrono Trigger and thats just because its so well put together, I believe GamePro gave it 5's across the board when it first came out.
Right now it sounds like you're trolling. I re-read this thread and you were asking for the deep technical details about the differences/incompatibilities. When they were provided, you obviously didn't understand a word of it.
The N'sOaC are craptacular in the compatibility department, and that's all there is to it. Bad sound (the pulse widths and relative channel volume), slight incompatible bus timing on the CHR bus (so MMC5 won't work), incompatible cart ports (no CIRAM enable), and that's just for starters.
Quote:
gives you a "The Matrix" effect. Also, that HD TV analogy is completely off base, a more accurate analogy would be that the colors are 2 shades lighter than a "standard" HD TV and 6 out of 750 channels don't come in,
how much is a "shade"? Got an oscilloscope you can use to check the video level? I suspect the console is outputting a hell of alot more than 1V peak/peak. That is why your video "takes awhile to come in". It is saturating the input circuit on the TV and it has to compensate.
Quote:
was significantly cheaper than a used regular HD TV and "original" HD TVs couldn't be purchased new, I would probably buy it. So, actually, the HD TV analogy makes the clones look even better.
Just to reiterate, I'm not here to argue over if clones are better than a real NES, or even if they are a better alternative to a used one, I'm just wondering about why certain things on the clone are the way they are out of sheer curiousity, don't get bent out of shape over it.
I know I shouldn't feed the troll, but if you really are "17 days older than the NES" (what, born in 1986 or so?) you probably never played any of these games "back in the day" so you aren't tuned to the finer points of the games. If you've played them on the real system for hours on end, you will instantly notice the problems with the clones.
Besides, if cheetahmen 2 doesn't work, what will I pop in to my NES to get about 5 minutes of solid laughter? It's so terrible it's hilarious.
17daysolderthannes wrote:
Also, that HD TV analogy is completely off base, a more accurate analogy would be that the colors are 2 shades lighter than a "standard" HD TV and 6 out of 750 channels don't come in, including the bowling channel, the watch paint dry channel, the deep fat fryer channel, QVC
Some people might agree with you about HGTV and Food Network. But if it doesn't get QVC, it might as well not get Comedy Central.
Mike Rowe explains.
bunnyboy wrote:
But you are still glossing over the almost 100% inaccuracy of the NOAC video
The later runs of Nintendo GameCube also had video problems: they didn't have the port for a component video cable. This meant you had to use a composite cable, which caused unintended luma/chroma artifacts to appear in games. (As systems gain more native on-screen colors, these artifacts become less intended.) An S-Video cable fixed half of these problems, but it still wouldn't let you run in progressive scan mode.
bunnyboy wrote:
And using your logic, I hate all Final Fantasy games so [FFXI] doesn't count no matter how good it is!
Another thing you can't play on the slim PS2 for the same reason as FFXI is Linux, which is the only authorized way to make homebrew for the PS2.
bunnyboy wrote:
Inaccuracy is technical, quality is opinion. Around here I care about the technical, so even Cheetahmen 2 is important.
Inaccuracy is objective, but so is number of extant copies.
kevtris wrote:
Besides, if cheetahmen 2 doesn't work, what will I pop in to my NES to get about 5 minutes of solid laughter? It's so terrible it's hilarious.
Ikari Warriors?
tepples wrote:
bunnyboy wrote:
But you are still glossing over the almost 100% inaccuracy of the NOAC video
The later runs of Nintendo GameCube also had video problems: they didn't have the port for a component video cable. This meant you had to use a composite cable, which caused unintended luma/chroma artifacts to appear in games. (As systems gain more native on-screen colors, these artifacts become less intended.) An S-Video cable fixed half of these problems, but it still wouldn't let you run in progressive scan mode.
However, those problems are inherent in the composite video stream, the Gamecube should be putting out the same video signal, regardless of the age of the model. Besides, composite output also has beneficial effects like free anti-aliasing.
tepples wrote:
bunnyboy wrote:
And using your logic, I hate all Final Fantasy games so [FFXI] doesn't count no matter how good it is!
Another thing you can't play on the slim PS2 for the same reason as FFXI is Linux, which is the only authorized way to make homebrew for the PS2.
That is a grand total of two pieces of software, and Sony did not hide that fact.
tepples wrote:
kevtris wrote:
Besides, if cheetahmen 2 doesn't work, what will I pop in to my NES to get about 5 minutes of solid laughter? It's so terrible it's hilarious.
Ikari Warriors?
Heroes of the Lance
how exactly am I trolling? I asked technical questions and got a mix of technical and opinionated responses, so I said "thanks" for the technical responses and offered my counter opinion to the opinions. Honestly, the whole term "Sound Accuracy" is subjective anyway. Accurate with respect to what? With respect to a regular NES, yes, it is not exactly the same. But like the NES is really an amazing piece of audio technology to begin with. Take for instance Ghostbusters or Ghostbusters 2 on the NES, it plays an instrumental version of the ghostbusters theme the whole game. Comparing accuracy to the real audio from the movie, its "cheap innaccurate garbage" and in fact could be closer to the real thing on a clone system (dunno, I don't own the game to try it). Yes, technically the sound is not identical to an NES, and if that bugs you then clones are not for you, but I have actually come to prefer some games on the Yobo such as Rush N Attack because I find the drums sound more like drums instead of the bleep/bloop sounds of the NES and give it a more mature sound. None of the games I've played have sound that gives off a "garbled" feel, just a different one, and in some games I find its a better alternative.
oh, and as for my name, I am 17 days older than the original launch of the US NES: October 18, 1985, aka I was born October 1,1985 (I thought you should know that since you are a contributing member of a site dedicated to developing for the NES). I got my first NES when I was 4~5 years old (I still haven't been able to pin down exactly how old I was) and didn't "upgrade" to an SNES until I was 9 or 10 or maybe even 11, so that gave me a solid 5 years of strictly NES playing, back when I was a kid with no responsibilities and hours to sit in front of a TV. In fact, usually when I would go to a friend's house and they had an NES, the first thing I did was see what games he had and ask to play/borrow one if it was one I didn't have or hadn't played before. All of the kids were like that at the time, NES was the only "toy" anyone cared about (though it is much better than a toy, hence the quotations). Hell, I even had a baby sitter that taught me and my sister all of the tricks like warp pipes in Super Mario Bros. Even with all of that history with the NES, I still am not bothered by the slight differences of the clone, but thats probably because I tend to look at stuff like this from the optomists standpoint: new console with very high compatability rather than the pessimists standpoint: not exactly the same as an original and not perfect compatability, therefore useless. The most baffling thing to me is that all of you seem to absolutely hate clones for their inaccuracy, yet you develop emulators that are far less accurate and pat each other on the back. Give credit where credit is due, they did a decent job for what it is, not to hate on emulator developers, by all means keep up the good work, I was content with emulators years ago when they were full of bugs, but just giving my perspective on the matter. If the NOAC was a homebrew accomplishment, forum upon forum would be saturated with people saying "ZOMG, AWESOME!" and "PLEASE MASS PRODUCE THIS, I WANT ONE!"
17daysolderthannes wrote:
The most baffling thing to me is that all of you seem to absolutely hate clones for their inaccuracy, yet you develop emulators that are far less accurate and pat each other on the back.
That really shows you haven't been around here long, and will look like a troll to some people. Accurate emulators like Nintendulator are FAR better than the NOACs which should be expected because the problems are actually fixed. They even correctly emulate the bugs/quirks of the original NES. MMC5 games have run correctly for a couple years. People like kevtris have physically measured the video voltages so they can be simulated correctly. There are even blarggs NTSC libraries to display the tv artifacts and pixel blurring. These good emulators are even better than the official Nintendo ones on GBA/Wii/etc
If you were content with Nesticle thats fine, but its pretty much blasphemy around here! So many problems now are created from the bad info then...
17daysolderthannes wrote:
If the NOAC was a homebrew accomplishment, forum upon forum would be saturated with people saying "ZOMG, AWESOME!" and "PLEASE MASS PRODUCE THIS, I WANT ONE!"
Which is exactly what has happened with the truly 100% accurate
kevtendo. It even plays Cheetahmen 2
Unfortunately it is still too expensive to produce in the small quantities of people that would actually pay for it. There are ways to make it cheaper but his ambitions go way farther than just a NES.
well, I forgot to mention I use a Mac and the current Mac OS X emulators (that I'm aware of) are less accurate than NOAC, I guess you PC guys have it a bit better. If its really THAT good, that makes me want to go through with my "emulation station" idea where I build a custom PC just to emulate NES, SNES, Genesis, N64, and a couple other systems that grab my interest and just buy an A/V converter so it can be used on a tv (I believe its part of the video card, correct? I haven't looked into it much, just know it exists). That way, with RetroUSB.com's adapters, I can play the entire library of each system with original controllers all in one convenient device without having to even change cartridges. Although, isn't this possible already with XBOX/Gamecube? maybe that would be the cheaper way since XBOXs are dirt cheap and technically already have a Gamecube (Wii).
17daysolderthannes wrote:
well, I forgot to mention I use a Mac and the current Mac OS X emulators (that I'm aware of) are less accurate than NOAC
Do you use a Macintosh computer with a PowerPC CPU, or do you use a Macintosh computer with an Intel CPU? If the latter, have you tried running the emulators in
Darwine, an independent implementation of the Win32 libraries on Mac OS X?
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and just buy an A/V converter so it can be used on a tv (I believe its part of the video card, correct? I haven't looked into it much, just know it exists).
Owners of Mac mini computers in the United States can buy a composite video output adapter for $20 at apple.com.
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That way, with RetroUSB.com's adapters, I can play the entire library of each system with original controllers all in one convenient device without having to even change cartridges.
If you need to switch controllers between one game and the next, that's almost as much of a bother. I'd recommend hooking up only N64 controllers through a USB adapter. The N64 controller has enough buttons to handle all the classic systems and the right Nintendo D-pad feel to satisfy players.
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Although, isn't this possible already with XBOX/Gamecube? maybe that would be the cheaper way since XBOXs are dirt cheap and technically already have a Gamecube (Wii).
Wii with upgraded firmware doesn't run the Datel discs needed to run homebrew in GameCube mode. You'll need an actual GameCube.
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Although, isn't this possible already with XBOX/Gamecube?
the xbox has ports of quite a few emulators. the fceu port to xbox is a dated version (from ~2004 i beleive) and some of the more obscure mappers aren't supported. though from your earlier post, you probably wouldn't care about a few pirate games anyways.
then there's the problem that xbe's built with the xdk are illegal to distribute, but that'd be a personal issue.
While I am forced to emulate 98/XP for specific apps, I am certainly a Mac guy
Nestopia and FCEU are both available for Mac OS X. I haven't looked at RockNES in over 3 years, and I now see Bannister's version is now discontinued. It is at least a full version behind anyways. If you are on an Intel Mac you can run the Windows NES emulators at almost full speed in Parallels, or full speed in Bootcamp. There really is no Mac NES emulator with a debugger so I run the Windows ones (FCEUXD SP, Nintendulator) in Parallels all the time. VirtualPC for PPC Macs still works good for emulators because there isn't too much video usage.
Emulation station, or a MAME cabinet, is a good idea that many people have done. However using an xbox is a bad idea. They purposely broke the USB spec to collect more royalties so generic gamepads like at retrousb.com will not work. Better to spend the money for a super cheap computer so you get easier internet/music/movie playing too.
The Mac Mini is more expensive than a full sized super cheap Windows box, but it is a great choice because of its size, silence, and video output. It will run any Windows app that doesn't use 3D rendering with no problems. I have one in the kitchen for music for my wife, it also runs a CounterStrike server and home automation stuff. It is small enough that everything is build into the cabinets. Finally got the amazingly small bluetooth keyboard too
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Wii with upgraded firmware doesn't run the Datel discs needed to run homebrew in GameCube mode. You'll need an actual GameCube.
there are still ways to get GC homebrew runnning on the Wii altough if this is your interest you better off with an xbox sence, things can be much more easally ported to xbox sence it basicley just an intel PC there are many better emulators already ported to it for a large range of systems, it can run real linux and with xbox media center it make one hell of a media player witch can play almost any digital media and it has a hard drive to store all of this on witch can be replaced with a larger one, with a xerc installed and a RCA DVD remote its hard to beat
@ bunnyboy:
I feel the xbox is more usefull for a TV hookup general media use than a cheap PC
these things cannot be understood till you already own a "hacked" xbox or spend some time with one and see all of its meny uses I think it would do you some good to spend one afternoon reading
here there is a LOT more too it than you would think
anyway it dose not seem to be productive to argue with 17daysolder sence you ether get it or you dont and he will never get it
peppers wrote:
there are still ways to get GC modebrew runnning on the Wii altough if this is your interest you better off with an xbox sence, things can be much more easally ported to xbox sence it basicley just an intel PC there are many better emulators already ported to it for a large range of systems, it can run real linux and with xbox media center it make one hell of a media player witch can play almost any digital media and it has a hard drive to store all of this on witch can be replaced with a larger one
Possibly the biggest run-on sentence yet? Gotta get me some modebrew!
peppers wrote:
I feel the xbox is more usefull for a TV hookup general media use than a cheap PC
What are some examples that a PC can't do?
peppers wrote:
anyway it dose not seem to be productive to argue with 17daysolder sence you ether get it or you dont and he will never get it
This isn't an argument, unless you are just trying to start another troll by saying he is stubborn
He just either hasn't been around long enough or hasn't taken the time to see what else is out there. Education is usually productive. Even I learned why Paperboy doesn't work because he started this...
bunnyboy wrote:
peppers wrote:
there are still ways to get GC modebrew runnning on the Wii altough if this is your interest you better off with an xbox sence, things can be much more easally ported to xbox sence it basicley just an intel PC there are many better emulators already ported to it for a large range of systems, it can run real linux and with xbox media center it make one hell of a media player witch can play almost any digital media and it has a hard drive to store all of this on witch can be replaced with a larger one
Possibly the biggest run-on sentence yet? Gotta get me some modebrew!
peppers wrote:
I feel the xbox is more usefull for a TV hookup general media use than a cheap PC
What are some examples that a PC can't do?
yes I ment to go back and fix that but sence you already quoted me I will not bother but for the second comment its a little hard to go into witout posting an even longer run on sentance but I will try to explain
1.All of the apps are setup so you can use them from a distance and useing a DVD remote with ease
2.the display and interfaces are much better suted for a TV and with hacked BIOS you can get the display up to 1080i
3.you can easally ftp whatever you like into its HDD without a lot of setup and work
4.there are meny aftermarket devises witch you can install into it witch add neat funtionality
Its very difficult to explain the xbox stock itsself is not very good I agree but with all of its homebrew it becomes very usefull, to understand it would help to read around the link I gave you earleyer, but you cant realy get it till you see for yourself
I am sure if you were to install "hacked" bios in one and play around with it for a wile you would come around, trust me it would be worth the trouble
fyi if you do make sure to get xbox media center,wich was originally an mplayer port but has evolved a bit sence then
peppers wrote:
Its very difficult to explain the xbox stock itsself is not very good I agree but with all of its homebrew it becomes very usefull, to understand it would help to read around the link I gave you earleyer, but you cant realy get it till you see for yourself
my xbox is mostly computer parts now. had to replace the dvd drive and fan. then came a larger hd. im working on a new case because i got wires all over the place and the old dvd drive just kinda hangs off the back. a couple of the controller ports were swapped out from a bricked xbox.
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I am sure if you were to install "hacked" bios in one and play around with it for a wile you would come around, trust me it would be worth the trouble
fyi if you do make sure to get xbox media center,wich was originally an mplayer port but has evolved a bit sence then
ill have to try out that app. i personally love that all the classic dooms were ported.
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They purposely broke the USB spec to collect...
do you mean for data transmission and such? (im not familiar with usb on a low level) i know the wiring is the same cuz i spliced a standard usb chord with my xbox controller to hook it to a PC.
indeed indeed, anyone for a "Emulation Station" thread? That way, we can all discuss the best method for an all-in-one TV entertainment device, heck, I'll just go create it
.
edit: done, its in the emulation section, so go post your ideas
peppers wrote:
1.All of the apps are setup so you can use them from a distance and useing a DVD remote with ease
You mean like Apple's Front Row software, using the included remote? I assume Windows Media Center stuff has the same made for TV interfaces, I haven't used it yet.
peppers wrote:
2.the display and interfaces are much better suted for a TV and with hacked BIOS you can get the display up to 1080i
Mini has VGA (1920x1080 max) and DVI (1920x1200 max) without hacking. A cheap Windows box could have dual link DVI card for 2560x1600. HDTV resolutions are fairly old news on computers, especially when using interlaced HD modes. S-video and composite are available from a cheap adapter.
peppers wrote:
3.you can easally ftp whatever you like into its HDD without a lot of setup and work
The FTP server is one checkbox on Mac OS X. Hard to get easier than that without having it turned on by default
Why would someone want FTP instead of just file sharing anyways? Even better, using a system like iTunes all the shared computer detection and audio streaming is handled automatically. One checkbox per computer means the media is shared with any computer on the local network.
peppers wrote:
4.there are meny aftermarket devises witch you can install into it witch add neat funtionality
When there are no specifics I don't know how to shoot that one down, cept for neat! Got anything else that the xbox does better than a cheap pc? Other than price of course, the full blown comp will always be more expensive but have far more built in. I guess the Mac Mini doesn't play xbox games very well...
bunnyboy wrote:
peppers wrote:
1.All of the apps are setup so you can use them from a distance and useing a DVD remote with ease
You mean like Apple's Front Row software, using the included remote? I assume Windows Media Center stuff has the same made for TV interfaces, I haven't used it yet.
peppers wrote:
2.the display and interfaces are much better suted for a TV and with hacked BIOS you can get the display up to 1080i
Mini has VGA (1920x1080 max) and DVI (1920x1200 max) without hacking. A cheap Windows box could have dual link DVI card for 2560x1600. HDTV resolutions are fairly old news on computers, especially when using interlaced HD modes. S-video and composite are available from a cheap adapter.
peppers wrote:
3.you can easally ftp whatever you like into its HDD without a lot of setup and work
The FTP server is one checkbox on Mac OS X. Hard to get easier than that without having it turned on by default
Why would someone want FTP instead of just file sharing anyways? Even better, using a system like iTunes all the shared computer detection and audio streaming is handled automatically. One checkbox per computer means the media is shared with any computer on the local network.
peppers wrote:
4.there are meny aftermarket devises witch you can install into it witch add neat funtionality
When there are no specifics I don't know how to shoot that one down, cept for neat! Got anything else that the xbox does better than a cheap pc? Other than price of course, the full blown comp will always be more expensive but have far more built in. I guess the Mac Mini doesn't play xbox games very well...
the xbox dose support file shareing and itunes music share along with all popular network protocals I know of
I just like ftp better so this is what came to mind
your end of the conversation was a cheap computer, what you are discribleing is fairley pricy and oviousley an expencive computer would be better
bunnyboy wrote:
peppers wrote:
I feel the xbox is more usefull for a TV hookup general media use than a cheap PC
What are some examples that a PC can't do?
For one thing, people say it's hard to find high-quality composite video output in a cheap set-top PC.
peppers wrote:
your end of the conversation was a cheap computer, what you are discribleing is fairley pricy and oviousley an expencive computer would be better
A "cheap pc" is either ~$600 for the Mac Mini (brand new), ~$400 for a full mini itx computer (brand new), or ~$200 (guess) for a good condition xbox with mod chip, hard disk, wireless, remote, etc added. Going for used parts drops the computer prices by at least $100 each. Nothing I described (except dual link dvi) needs anything more than the most basic Mini or PC. If you wanted to talk about expensive computers I would say get an 8 core Mac Pro, a couple TB of disk, 4x 30" monitors, etc
All systems have composite video output, no idea about quality between them tho. I think every system Apple has sold for a few years can have svideo and composite through the same cheap dvi adapter. Almost every mini itx board now has composite out too but again I don't know if its high quality. Not sure there is any quality check I can do on my unmodded xbox vs laptop.
there is no point in trying to convince you, but I would advise you get yourself a $!5 modchip (if you want cheap/free methodes there are also outher options witch are ok but modchip are more convient) and maybe a cheap desent sizd IDE hdd you probubley have sitting around and try it out. those 2 items are not that expencive (if your a live user there are some small steps you must take to avoud getting banned if you use that console on it but nothing too hard)
as a note the TV media PC softwares witch you mentioned are belived to be baised off xbox homebrew work witch were around for a few years before they showed up, its nicer than you think for casual things
17daysolderthannes wrote:
well, I forgot to mention I use a Mac and the current Mac OS X emulators (that I'm aware of) are less accurate than NOAC, I guess you PC guys have it a bit better.
Nestopia is one of the most accurate NES emulators for the PC. Nestopia is easily more accurate than your NOAC based systems, and it has two Mac OSX ports. Assuming the ports are good and your hardware is powerful enough, this emulator is far more accurate than your NOACs:
http://www.bannister.org/software/nestopia.htm
peppers wrote:
there is no point in trying to convince you, but I would advise you get yourself a $!5 modchip (if you want cheap/free methodes there are also outher options witch are ok but modchip are more convient)
Given the legal climate in the United States, how do I find a competent person to install a modchip?
I am unsure because I do my own soldering, as long as your skilled to the level where you wont burn the hell out of the board the xbox is pretty simple the pads are niceley spaced out so brigeing is not even much of an isue all you realy need is some 30awg wire and a 15w iron,
after that you need to download and load BIOS for the chip
I got a new challenge for all of you to chew on: I just bought Klax for NES on Amazon (mint condition, I am pleased) and it plays 100% correct on my real NES; however, on my Yobo FC, during gameplay (nowhere else like menus, etc) the top half of the screen (conveyor belt) displays perfectly, but the bottom half of the screen "jitters." By jitters I mean it looks like its comprised of 5 rectangles spanning the width of the screen and they shift about 1~2 pixels pretty much constantly, kinda like a bad earthquake effect. It doesn't really hinder gameplay but just thought I should add that to the database since I've never heard it mentioned anywhere else before and Klax is a pretty uncommon game so I'm sure not many people have tried it before.
Anyone know what is causing this? I can only think its from either a refresh rate glitch/bug or the cartridge chip isn't making a good enough connection since the chip sits inward a little more than a regular NES cart. I figure its the refresh though since it only happens during gameplay.
Irrelevant info: In case anyone is interested, Klax is an awesome game and it is definitely on par with Tetris and Bust-A-Move in my book. Also, the very...ahem...time-dependent intro "it is the nineties and there is time for...KLAX" is so awesome I made it into a shirt:
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s190/specv4life/klaxshirtfinal.jpg
Maybe it's a MMC3 IRQ problem.
17daysolderthannes wrote:
I got a new challenge for all of you to chew on: I just bought Klax for NES on Amazon (mint condition, I am pleased) and it plays 100% correct on my real NES; however, on my Yobo FC, during gameplay (nowhere else like menus, etc) the top half of the screen (conveyor belt) displays perfectly, but the bottom half of the screen "jitters." By jitters I mean it looks like its comprised of 5 rectangles spanning the width of the screen and they shift about 1~2 pixels pretty much constantly, kinda like a bad earthquake effect. It doesn't really hinder gameplay but just thought I should add that to the database since I've never heard it mentioned anywhere else before and Klax is a pretty uncommon game so I'm sure not many people have tried it before.
Anyone know what is causing this? I can only think its from either a refresh rate glitch/bug or the cartridge chip isn't making a good enough connection since the chip sits inward a little more than a regular NES cart. I figure its the refresh though since it only happens during gameplay.
It is due to the poor quality of the NES on a chip in there. The PPU bus doesn't work like a true NES, so the IRQ controller in the RAMBO-1 chip is getting confused. Klax uses RAMBO-1 instead of MMC3. It's close, but different. Klax needs some pretty close timing of those IRQs (it fires them off every 8 scanlines), and without decent accuracy, it won't run no way no how. The funny PPU cycles are also why MMC5 fails- it uses the PPU timing to extract information on what is being rendered so that it can properly synch up.
Without throwing a logic analyzer on there, there's no way to know exactly what they are doing wrong, but it could have something to do with how sprites are fetched.
Other fun games to test that might show issues:
Marble Madness (does some mid-frame writes)
Micromachines (absolutely insane PPU stuff, hehe)
Pirates! (mid-frame bankswitching)
Punchout! (prolly will work, but you never know)
Bigfoot (during the two truck thing where it turns the PPU off and loads sprites)
Huge Insect (sprite 0 re-assignment fun)
Battletoads (notorious pain in the ass for emulator writes awhile back)
Tank Demo (not a released cart but would be fun to try)
Spelunker (does some NMI oddness)
Door Door (frame IRQ stuff)
Those are some good ones off the top of my head that give emulator writers nightmares. Does anyone emulate Micromachines properly? I know Nintendulator runs it, but it uses a hack to do so. The Super8's NoaC is pretty good and runs Micromachines and all the other games listed above, including MMC5. The same chip is included in the Game Axe so they should all run there, too. I tested the FDS on the Game Axe and it works as well
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Marble Madness (does some mid-frame writes)
Micromachines (absolutely insane PPU stuff, hehe)
Pirates! (mid-frame bankswitching)
Punchout! (prolly will work, but you never know)
Bigfoot (during the two truck thing where it turns the PPU off and loads sprites)
Huge Insect (sprite 0 re-assignment fun)
Battletoads (notorious pain in the ass for emulator writes awhile back)
Tank Demo (not a released cart but would be fun to try)
Spelunker (does some NMI oddness)
Door Door (frame IRQ stuff)
Those are some good ones off the top of my head that give emulator writers nightmares. Does anyone emulate Micromachines properly? I know Nintendulator runs it, but it uses a hack to do so.
Nestopia also runs Micro Machines correctly, but it probably uses the same hack as Nintendulator. Nestopia does show noticeable, but not constant glitches using the NROM versions of Ian Bell's Tank Demo.
I'm led to believe there's a number of FOACs out there, as I and a few friends have various systems obtained in Japan, Russia, Estonia, Mexico, etc. (most of which were still made in China/HK/etc.) and all of them have dramatically different behavior. While I've not subjected them to rigorous compatibility comparisons, I do know that:
#1: Some FOACs will run games others will not.
#2: Audio reproduction, while imperfect on all FOACs, is significantly different depending on which one you're using. While many inconsistencies like certain waveforms/DPCM being louder than others could likely be narrowed down to PCB design problems outside the FOAC (like unevenly amplifying the two audio lines from the Faux-2A03) issues such as inconsistent pulse width from the two pulse generators indicate variations in FOAC design or manufacturing.
#3: This is the strangest one; different FOACs I own perform with different levels of CPU performance. As an example, I have a "Famulator" and "Neo Fami", both of which have similar-sounding triangle/DPCM reproduction but differing quality pulse/noise quality. But the odd thing is that the Neo Fami exhibits horrible slowdown (twice as bad, or more, than the real FC/NES) in numerous games, such as Kirby's Adventure; while the Famulator's CPU performance is just slightly below that of the real FC/NES. I'm investigating why this is-- but so far, the results are consistent with operation of the genuine 2A03 at different frequencies, with the exception that audio pitch is unaltered.
#4: I've seen a datasheet for a FOAC that listed it as an 'educational' computer processor and made no mention of FC compatibility, and that its ability to draw sprites were for 'cartoons'. I don't doubt there are a number of chips like this from various manufacturers, probably all slightly different variations on an original clone that was reverse engineered.
Just some observances.