How to fix a NES mainboard without 10NES lockout chip ?

Hello friends,

I tried recently to disable n°4 pin of the NES10 lockout chip on my NES, but unfortunately, I destroyed the entire chip (now I have completely remove it).

Since I've done it, my NES does'nt boot on game cartridges (and seems it doesn't work when I turn it on, because It makes a permanent white screen), but I noticed something interesting : when I hit the n°9 pin point with the tip of my multimeter, it works !!!!! So I guess that my motherboard is not completely destroyed (sorry for my bad english). I noticed another problem : since I Have removed the 3195A chip, reset button doesn't work (only with this motherboard).

Do you recommend me to extract a 10NES chip from a game cartridge and just try to solder it to the mainboard, or maybe is there any other issue ?

Someone from a forum recommend me this :
"Hi,
I'm not as familiar with the CIC chip as some other folks on the Nesdev forums, but you might try using a 10k resistor to connect pin 9 to GND.
If that doesn't work, try searching the Nesdev forum for CIC chip removal. Worst case just start a new thread and someone can point you in the right direction.
Good luck!"

Yes you could use a CIC from an old game cartridge. Or you could try hitting the reset button after powering the system on. Or you could do this modification. viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9244#p98535

Thank you so much for your answer, but it's difficult to see on this photo what he exactly did.

Anyone to explain ?

Thx

You could just solder a 100k resistor from ground to pin 9, but the reset button won't work.

The step-by-step guide was linked from that post, but here it is again: viewtopic.php?p=39814#p39814

And here's a little cartoon of it:

For the soldering of 100K resistor, I have to remove the little blue blue plastic protection ?

Yeah, you'll need to have removed U10, R1, and X2. (And C6 and C7 if they exist, but they probably don't)

Thanks.
Do I need to disolder the 1M resistor ?
Do I have to solder the "-" or "+" on the n°4 pin ?

You probably don't have to desolder the 1Mohm resistor, but I would; I specifically chose the wiring I did to take advantage of preexisting solder holes.

Where'd you find a polarized 0.1µF capacitor? The capacitor will be charged to +5V whenever reset isn't pressed, and briefly exposed to -5V when power is turned off, so it'd be best to use a non-electrolytic.

If you have to use a polarized one (and make sure you don't have a 1µF cap), the +ve side should be CIC pin 4, but you should expect it to spontaneously fail randomly about 5 years in the future.

this is how i do it!



everything works as if it never had one in the first place
you should remove the CIC protection diodes or some games with the -5v spike circuit might get confused

also works with copynes

had this file for years just never had webspace lol

It seems that your schematic is so different than linadriq's.....

my schematic uses an inverter from the oscillator to protect the CPU/PPU and also turns the power light off when you hit the reset button

the two extras inverters go to ground so they aren't floating because that's bad

also disconnects the inverter that goes to the CIC/-5v zap circuits in game packs.. normally a clock but without the oscillator its floating between +5 and ground also very bad

the only way you can tell that it's been modified is it doesn't flash without a game in the console
because that's the cic's job... it's basically a perfect board patch circuit

the capacitor can be anything below 10uf and above 0.1uf.. but i would go with 10uf gives you a good solid reset with no noticeable delay... should be between 10v and 50v

i tried the pin 4 thing back in the day thinking it would be a cool hack.. the truth is when the cic is in key mode the lockout pin is stuck in reset..that's how it was coded.. tapping reset with pin 4 floating can get it to work but nes has enough problems

Thank you so much, but I'm a true begginer in electronic stuff....

Is there any other issue, for example if I only want use it without reset function ?

Linnariq suggest to solder a 100k resistor from ground to pin 9, but the reset button won't work (where is situated ground ?)

i think that circuit would zap pin 2 of U9

pin 2 of U9 is output it's tied to pin 3 and 13 inputs. pin 4 is connected to the clock input of the CIC or -5v zapper circuit.. so it could be bad for some games

if you don't want reset just switch the cap a resistor around and instead of the center connection being pinhole 7 (the reset switch) connect the center connection to pin 9 cpu/ppu
and your good to go

if you play games like the legend of zelda with memory you will most likly need to keep the nes on so keep your game saves..

There is absolutely nothing wrong with my design. The difference is that my design doesn't involve lifting pins of the inverter.
The only huge difference is that jims cool's design uses the inverter on pins 13-12, and mine uses the inverter on pins 1-2.

Thx

I noticed that I have a NES-CPU-10 mainboard, and you suggest to remove some caps and resistors.

Do I really have to do it ?

Isn't it safer/easier/simpler to replace it with a chip from a game cartridge?

After desoldering it from a game PCB, it'd be easy to work with and disable or bend out the correct pin without wrecking the rest.

Here's the schematic of the original section of the board with what my modification:

Red Xs are removed, green is what I had you add, purple codes are the names of things on my NES-CPU-07 board, the blue resistor is unnecessary but let me explain:

At least one game uses the CIC SLAVE RESET output to reset its state. (It's the European multicart Tetris+SMB+Nintendo World Cup). But putting in a large resistor (100k?) from pin 6 to 10, you can make sure that 1- that's a large enough resistor that any CIC stun circuits won't damage anything and 2- that game (and any others) that use it will actually go back to the main menu when you hit the reset button.


No, it won't, the only difference from the original schematic is that now the 1-2 inverter is now driving three inverters and the 2A03 and 2C02 reset inputs instead of just two inverters.

No stun circuits ever drove CIC CLK for precisely this reason; exceeding the voltage limits of the 74'04 wasn't going to let them run. All CIC stun circuits drive one of CIC pins 1, 2, or 10.



I can only speak for the NES-CPU-07 board, because I can look at it in front of me. I see no reason to remove either of the capacitors (also labeled in my schematic above). They'll just float now, which is safe if superfluous.

Removing the diode, on the other hand, has a point, if you have any unlicensed games with CIC stuns. Because you don't have a reminder that the CIC stun is shorted out (game endlessly rebooting), it could cause the CIC stun to burn itself out.

Desoldering two ICs and resoldering one IC -vs- desoldering one IC and soldering in 2 wires and two passive components? I personally think the latter is easier.

you need to lift U9 pin 4 (cart cic clock) in your circuit for nothing to be wrong its input is connected to pin 2.. the resistors are just extra junk but you should remove the diode it's job is basically to short out a -5v spike from a third party game.

so if you lift pin 4 on u9 and take out the diode it does the same
my extra 2 inverters connect to the ground and his connect to the reset but that's alright he has one less jumper

without lifting the pin you send a clock pulse out into oblivion.. and if that diode is in the circuit things could get cooking

and i was talking about the clock driving the -5v not the -5v driving the clock output/zapping it

... yes, pins 2 and 3 are connected? But no cic stun circuits drive CIC CLOCK, so why does this matter?

Since both of our designs remove the 4MHz resonator, you clearly don't mean "clock pulse"; what do you mean?

Same thing, really. The only question is which side dies first.

i know more about electronics then you probably think it's not a big deal to me.. you can have a difference in opinion but personalty i wouldn't send a 1hz pulse on to the cic clock line.. it doesn't need the pulse and it's not meant for it. the diodes will short the zapper thats what they do.. if you look at the photos the orange glass things with a blue tripe are diodes... on cpu-10 it's only marked as a capacitor

anyway that was my last reply to this thread.. i think i explained it in this message best

Don't you think that it's finally better for me to remove a 10NES chip from a dead cartridge (if I found a broken one, for example) and try to resolder it ?

I'm sure lidnariq and jims cool have solutions that work well, but I do personally think it's easier just to replace the chip. It's not like the chips are hard to find, and the end result will require less modification to the NES. I don't like desoldering in general, but a small chip like that isn't a big deal, and you already have to desolder the one you need to remove, why not two?

Except there is no 1 Hz clock anywhere once we've removed the CIC? Sure, the CIC clock line is now an active-high reset, but I've never heard of any devices caring about the CIC clock line ... other than a properly functioning CIC in the cartridge.

Not really. Desoldering an entire IC without the right tools stands a good chance of destroying the donor PCB (which you don't care about here), possibly damaging the IC, and the resoldering a more complex solution also stands a chance of damaging the NES mainboard.

Just follow either of our directions. Are you blocking on finding the right size capacitor? Anything where R×C is at least 10ms should be fine. If you want suggestions, what do you have lying around? You could steal the capacitor C8 (which is 0.1µF) from right next to the CIC socket if that's what you're having trouble finding.

I was acting under the impression that he'd already completely removed the CIC off the mainboard.

Hi Lidnariq,

As I said previously, I don't speak english very well (maybe you have notice it).
I was mistaken, so I wanted to say that I was looking for an advice (instead of a suggestion).

I think I will try your solution first, I think it's more easier than Jims's solution, and, as I said, I'm a begginer in electronic stuff.

I guess that it will be not hard to find the capacitor you are talking about, I have and electronic shop near of my house.

I have 2 another questions please : since I've removed the 10NES chip, broken pins stays on the mainboard. Do I have to remove them (and just left holes clean) before making a soldering stuff ?
If I want to "region free" this mainboard, what I have to do ?

Thanks

It seems to me that you are way better off just cutting or lifting the Key/Lock pin. Far less work and same result.

I don't understand (I don't speak english very well).

What do you recommend to me ?

So, I've been thinking about it for the past few days, since you don't have the capacitor lying around. So I just tried removing it. It works fine, because there's another capacitor (C8) on the board for the same purpose.



Alternatively: I have not yet tried this myself, but this minor variant on my previous design does not require that you buy any parts, not even a resistor. (obviously you still need wire)For this you'd still need to remove the CIC, the 1Mohm resistor, and X2, but then resolder the 1M resistor as shown in dotted lines (It should reach) and add the two shown wires.

Only the ones that you want to solder things into. It'd look prettier if you removed them, but you're the only one who'll know.

A NES that lacks its CIC can play all games from Japan and the US, and probably most games released for Russian and Chinese famiclones. Games from Europe may or may not work and may sound detuned.

You're welcome.

You told me that you don't have already try it......I'm afraid to try this.......

Have you tried you first schematic ? Did it worked ?

The first schematic, but just omit the capacitor. I tried it two hours ago and it worked fine.

And if I just omit the capacitor to, how do the first schematic will look like ?

(I hope I'm not bothering you, but I'm a really dummie in electronic stuff.....)

It seems that the second schematic would be must easier for me......but do you think that it has good chances to work ?

You're not a dummie :p

To reassure you, I've gone and tested the most recent one I posted on mine: it works just fine.

(Reposting: )

hey again.. the 1hz pulse i was referring to is called a reset "signal" or "pulse".. every time you hit the reset button it clocks the CIC in the cart.. or anything else connected to that line.. the circuit you're building is called a "power on reset" or "POR" you can look it up

so my statement on lifting pin 4 of the inverter still stands lol
i can see reusing the capacitor but you should have a 10k resistor.. it's a logic circuit

you can stop trying to bash me.. its going to be alright
i'm still not getting reply's to this thread FYI just checking in

You still have not explained why anything cares that CIC CLOCK isn't a 4MHz square wave. It's also not a 1Hz square wave, a 1 Hz pulse train, or a 1 second one-shot. You could call it a 10-100ms one-shot.

However, there are at least two reasons that it doesn't matter whether or how we clock the CIC on the cartridge—first, the CICs are dynamic logic, so if it's clocked slower than 10kHz or so it'll just crash anyway, and secondly, unlike in the SNES where some games lock the ROM if the stream to the CIC KEY isn't valid, nothing in the NES does so here it doesn't matter. As a result, there's no need to disconnect CIC CLOCK by lifting pin 4.

The only things connected to the input there are: a 0.1µF capacitor to 5V, a 0.01µF capacitor to ground, the switch to 5V, and the resistor to ground.
The 74HCU04 has a maximum input leakage current at 25°C of 0.1µA, and 1µA over the full temperature range, which is still smaller than the current through the 1MΩ resistor over the entire relevant voltage range (It could be comparable once the capacitor has charged the the node to below 1 volt, but at that point the output is firmly into TTL logic high output). Thus there is no reason that the resistor needs to be "at most 10kΩ" since this is just a passive timing circuit.

Thank you for have testing it, for sure it's reassure me.

So I just need to desolder only one pin of the 1M resistor, and resolder it to the C6 point ?

you don't need to tell me how the CIC works I have a few on a bread board on my desk hooked up to my computer and AVR in front of me.. the clock divider wouldn't care how slow the pulse is it's still going to count.. the clock in is basically a flip-flop... the slowest they can run that i've tested with was around was around 300hz (on a bread board) if i remember correctly.. it wouldn't crash unless you hit the reset button at that speed.. anyway I'm just going to leave it at you know you're right because my AVR project is do for release this week and i don't want to waste any of my free time on anything unrelated..

Yes, specifically the outside hole (which is ground). However, I don't know if that's easiest. Regardless, don't forget the other two wires.

Hi Lidnariq,

I have showed your schematic to the electronic seller, and he told me that he could'nt understand, reading at your schematic, the way to desolder and resolder the 1M resistor....(Regarding 1M resistor, do I need to desolder the R1 or the 1M point ?)

Here's a photograph of it on my board.

here's a picture of what the my circuit looks like


also started a thread about why the pin 4 mod doesn't work

Why'd you kill the 7404's pin 4? Wrong pin 4 if that was for the lockout mod...

no it's the output of the inverter that goes to the games CIC clock line
i posted a schematic earlier in the thread.. i'm sure someones done that though

He felt he needed to keep CIC CLOCK OUT (to cartridge and expansion port) floating instead of driven. I'm not clear whether I have persuaded him that's not true, or whether he actually has a reason to do that.

it's just personal preference.. i don't think the reset pulse would damage the jcic.. or retro zones ciclone..

Hey, im reading this a while and i have an NES who dont want to work with Pin 4 CIC mod, so i built this easy circuit.

Works now with Pal B (standart here) and Pal A, only the SMB+World Soccer + Tetris dont go back to title screen with the reset button.

Thanks

I even mentioned that earlier in the thread: viewtopic.php?p=98828#p98828

I can't test this, and I'm not certain which games care, but try adding a large resistor (100k, give or take?) from CIC socket pin 6 to CIC socket pin 10.

If it doesn't work, we'll need a more complicated circuit to make sure that any unlicensed games that use a CIC stunner won't blow everything up.

so did nintendo break that on the top loader? that would be a cool mod/fix for top loaders.. i don't own that cart (or maybe i do) not a big sports fan..

should be able to recycle the diode and other parts to protect the inverter chip on my circuit.. they are used to protect the input of the CIC by shorting out the -5v spikes normally found in rare third party and pirate carts

As far as I know (and Nestopia's source loosely corroborates), only mappers 37 (SMB/Tetris/NWC) and 47 (SSVBall/NWC) use CIC RESET to reset a multicart. And the former, being Europe-only, I think wasn't even in a place with toploaders (No toploader was released in PAL regions, right?) Adding whatever simple circuit for this seems awkward for just one game (unless, of course, it's your console )

That and the other (far less common) game with NWC as the initials.

does the pirate version retrousb sells work the same way? or is that unaffected?

Given that he says it works on toploaders, "asian systems", and only doesn't work on the famicom for the lack of a 2nd player start, I bet it doesn't.

Yeah, the NWC repro derives reset some other way, probably the same way as the PowerPak.

So, just added an 100k resistor between Pin6&10, now my Pal B SMB+Tetris+NWS works !

Thanks

Hi,

Can you show a photo to describe it ?

Thx

how did brian get permission to repro nintendo games? or do you think nintendo is sitting on their hands until he ends up like the "super joy guy" who got five years in federal prison.. i'm not worried about the JCIC project because of the terms to download it.. i was thinking of releasing VS. cart with a ribbon cable so the ROMs could plugin on-top of the nes.. like a converter

wow right 10 is the reset line for the carts mapper/cic
good thing it's a 100k!.. that would connect two outputs together.. post edited above to remove quote!..

I think it's a safe bet to guess he doesn't have permission to repro anything besides the homebrews... My guess is Nintendo doesn't think he's worth the money required to go after him, either that or they are somehow unaware of his titles. Interesting story about the super joy, I guess it shows that Nintendo really does still care enough to take action. But it sounds like the super joy itself was the big fish worth frying, not that guy alone.

Edit: it might also be worth noting that Nintendo's financials have been on a downward trend since 2008 and they're bleeding pretty bad right now. So I think it's safe to say they have bigger matters of concern than His NWC carts. They don't put much of a dent on their 100's of millions of dollars in annual losses currently. It may be a different story if Nintendo rebounds with the Wii U though and they're looking spend money in attempt to teach anti-pirating lessons...

Or the other option: With what he does he has information of how the hardware works, bug fixes, etc. that Nintendo could find useful.

ETA: Nintendo is not turning a profit? Says who? They don't hold a candle to any other system ATM in terms of profit from who I see buying games today, but still...losing money? Hmmm...

ya own two of them.. well one.. took the connecter off one to build a CopyFamES!.. it's a NES with a Famicom slot and CopyNES.. they are kinda junky but famiclones can be fun.. mario music sounds like junk

EDIT: don't know what to make of it.. i wouldnt take that risk.. fixed a typo also lol..

Pictures please....

Is anyone can post any picture of it please ?

Well, if its too much trouble then don't worry about it.

i've been busy i'll make a thread about it soon.. i've been planing on the FC expansion port and a few other things.. it's not that interesting atm.. haven't added a port switch so i can have games in both slots yet

I understand. It would be nice to see if, and when, you get a chance.

Has anyone ever just installed a game cartridge CIC directly into their NES? Would you just need to lift the DATA IN/OUT pins on the NES Motherboard so that it would ignore any CIC in the inserted cartridge? Or would you need to lift any other pins? I'm just wondering if anyone has done this and made a schematic for going about defeating the lockout this way. And I suppose if the CIC reset signal still goes out to the cartridge then any multi-cart using that would still work.

You could pretty easily stack the key on top of the lock ("stacked DIP") for all pins except pin 4 (LOCK/KEY). But I'm not clear that that's any easier…

you could lift pin 1 and 2 on the lock then take a key CIC and bend pin 1, 2, 4, 5, 9 and 10 upward
stack the chips (solder pins not bet upward)
solder a wire from pin 1 (out) on the lock to pin 2 (in) on the key
solder a wire from pin 2 (in) on the lock to pin 1 (out) on the key
solder a wire from pin 4 (key/lock) on the key to pin 8 (gound) on the key
that's a lot of work though

if you replace the CIC you need to find a game with 319xA.. the timing of the other chips would stop lots of games from booting

Hello,

Is anyone can tell me please if it's a 1M ohms resistor (or another one) in this photograph?

Yeah, that's the same 1M resistor that was there beforehand. I just moved one side.

OK, thx bro

I've tested this, and it worked perfectly......thx so lot

This should be lidnariq's schematic with the extra resistor to allow CIC Reset-dependent cartridges like the PAL-only Super Mario Bros/Tetris/Nintendo World Cup and the official Nintendo World Championships 1990 cartridge to work properly :

I have done the above NES lockout chip removal mod. See the attached photos.



At the moment, the NES is only giving me a gray screen. Although I have occasionally seen junk on the screen. I believe the soldering is sound. I suspect the 72pin since I also boiled and re-installed the original 72pin. However, I have checked continuity on the 72pin and even bent the bifurcated pins up. I said I suspect the 72pin, but as I have never done this particular NES removal mod I now suspect it. Has anybody here actually done this mod successfully?

Darryl

UPDATE: It is working now. Turns out it was the 72pin causing trouble. This mod works. So clean.

That's literally the thing I did. Your rework is a lot prettier than mine

Does the reset button do anything? At the very least, the LED should turn off while you're pressing it.

Everything works as you'd expect... except I get gray screen. I see the red power LED. The Reset button resets. What could be going on?

Darryl

Red power LED is on, but off while reset is pressed? Video draws solid-colored screen, but is off while reset is pressed?

OK, update on this Nintendo NES. I now believe the lockout chip removal was successful.

I'd long suspected this NES of having power issues, so I just replaced the 7805. Cheap and easy repair. Then I did further testing with it. Still got the gray screen, but since the lid was off, I fiddled with the cart and as I raised and lowered the angle of the cart, it suddenly came to life! Not sure if the trouble is where the 72pin meets the mainboard or where the cart plugs in, but I suspect it's where the cart plugs in.

But the lockout mod seems successful. I should be play testing this thing later tonight after I get the 72pin issue worked out.


Darryl

Last update. I bent the pins on the 72pin connector and I have the NES working reliably now. Best of all, the lockout chip removal was a success! Thanks all.

If anybody else attempts this mod, it would be best to only change one thing at a time. Had I done that, I would not have been wondering which thing was causing my issue.

Darryl