I try to flash Gimmick(J) to a FME-7 board with kazzo!
It seems has problem(SUNSOFT 5B)
Is my famicom problem or cartridge problem?
It's ok
also ok
Here, need bank prg to 6000~7FFF!
But this cartridge can't bank prg(only bank sram)
Batman is FME-7 and doesn't have the sound chip found in Sunsoft 5B. Aside from the lack of the built in sound chip, they are compatible.
NescartDB claims that Gremlins 2 (J) also has a Sunsoft 5B chip inside.
Dwedit wrote:
Batman is FME-7 and doesn't have the sound chip found in Sunsoft 5B. Aside from the lack of the built in sound chip, they are compatible.
NescartDB claims that Gremlins 2 (J) also has a Sunsoft 5B chip inside.
Only two games has the SUNSOFT 5B?
Gremlins 2 has been seen with both 5A and 5B chips inside. (Demonstrating that 5B is supposed to be backwards compatible with 5A.)
I think at least one person has run Gimmick (with no extra sound) on an FME-7 RotJ board.
I don't know if anyone has tried to tap the unconnected pins from an FME-7 or 5A board with a gimmick ROM to verify there is no audio expansion output on those chips, but it's presumed they do not have the sound hardware.
rainwarrior wrote:
I think at least one person has run Gimmick (with no extra sound) on an FME-7 RotJ board.
I don't know if anyone has tried to tap the unconnected pins from an FME-7 or 5A board with a gimmick ROM to verify there is no audio expansion output on those chips, but it's presumed they do not have the sound hardware.
I know Kevtris has confirmed a ROJ board works if you add the 8910 synth. It's an assumption but I'd imagine Kevtris of all people would have verified the sound wasn't actually on the 5A/FME-7
Here's the best
thread I know of that explains how to use an FME7 with external synth.
infiniteneslives wrote:
rainwarrior wrote:
I think at least one person has run Gimmick (with no extra sound) on an FME-7 RotJ board.
I don't know if anyone has tried to tap the unconnected pins from an FME-7 or 5A board with a gimmick ROM to verify there is no audio expansion output on those chips, but it's presumed they do not have the sound hardware.
I know Kevtris has confirmed a ROJ board works if you add the 8910 synth. It's an assumption but I'd imagine Kevtris of all people would have verified the sound wasn't actually on the 5A/FME-7
Here's the best
thread I know of that explains how to use an FME7 with external synth.
I think i need more test!
byemu wrote:
Yes!
I found SUNSOFTR 5A is also include the exsound
Really???
Just to be clear there will be music playing Via the NES/APU alone. But you won't be able to hear all the instruments/percussion without the synth. One easy way to tell is the jump and star sounds wound be heard without the extra sound from the synth.
infiniteneslives wrote:
byemu wrote:
Yes!
I found SUNSOFTR 5A is also include the exsound
Really???
Just to be clear there will be music playing Via the NES/APU alone. But you won't be able to hear all the instruments/percussion without the synth. One easy way to tell is the jump and star sounds wound be heard without the extra sound from the synth.
Can tired the pin 45 and 46 to 5a and try it!
byemu wrote:
I try to flash Gimmick(J) to a FME-7 board!
It seems has problem(SUNSOFT 5B)
Is my famicom problem or cartridge problem?
Batman(J) runs OK!(SUNSOFT 5A)
Now I found the problem:
If cartridge include the sram,rom bank can not bank to 6000~7FFF!
If program try to bank rom to 6000~7fff,the data will all of the 0xff.
I doubt it, it probably checks for SRAM for copy protection. Just disable it.
My FME-7 cart plays Gimmick fine regardless of the SRAM being connected or not. (there's no SRAM checks in it at all)
I used two Barcode World carts to make two Gimmick repros and both had FME-7 chips.
Did you add an AY/YM chip, or are you saying that the FME-7 has the audio hardware in it? (Or your repros didn't have the extra audio?)
rainwarrior wrote:
Did you add an AY/YM chip, or are you saying that the FME-7 has the audio hardware in it? (Or your repros didn't have the extra audio?)
I added. It's one of the threads here, where some people said my soldering is horrible. lol
If you use the unreleased US version of Gimmick then you don't need the extra sound hardware.
MottZilla wrote:
If you use the unreleased US version of Gimmick then you don't need the extra sound hardware.
Well I wouldn't bother making a repro if it had no extra sound. It was the main reason for doing it. Gimmick! is a awesome game. And it's soo hard it's even funny in a very sadistic way ...
I'm pretty sure the ntsc game has all the sound the expansion has. or close to it, as even I can't hear much difference. They did a great conversion. Shame it never saw the light of day.
The US version has no *missing* sounds though. It doesn't have the extra channels but since it doesn't use them it still works. I wouldn't say that the extra sound channels in the japanese version are what make the game worth playing.
Gimmick is a lot easier if you've played though the game and practiced with savestates. Then you're ready to take it on.
But the PAL version is much easier, since it's 5/6 the speed.
l_oliveira wrote:
Gimmick! is a awesome game. And it's soo hard it's even funny in a very sadistic way .
You're right it's a great game, I have completed the european version of it, Mr Gimmick!, several times. It's not that hard. Where did the us version come from? Is there some differences from european version to the us version?
EDIT: ok already got the answer
Can anyone who actually owns Gimmick (J) trace the connections of the mapper to see where the extra components are connected to? On nesdev wiki about
Sunsoft5b pinout is a information about relation of pins 3 or 18 with audio output, but on the PCB photo it looks like nothing is connected to these pins...
jpx72 wrote:
I have knowledge that some Dodge Danpei and Gremlins 2 cartridges (both Famicom)
can have the Sunsoft 5B mapper inside .
But according to NEScartDB (
Gimmick-
Gremlins2)the original Gimmick (J) has it wired differently and added 4 caps and 3 resistors. Can anyone who actually owns Gimmick (J) trace the connections of the mapper to see where the extra components are connected to? On nesdev wiki about
Sunsoft5b pinout is a information about relation of pins 3 or 18 with audio output, but on the PCB photo it looks like nothing is connected to these pins...
Gimmick (J) use the cartridge pin 45 and 46!
MottZilla wrote:
The US version has no *missing* sounds though. It doesn't have the extra channels but since it doesn't use them it still works. I wouldn't say that the extra sound channels in the japanese version are what make the game worth playing.
No, it is what made me pick the Japanese version instead of the others.
jpx72 wrote:
On nesdev wiki about
Sunsoft5b pinout is a information about relation of pins 3 or 18 with audio output, but on the PCB photo it looks like nothing is connected to these pins...
I started tracing that (from photos) a while ago; the traces from the capacitors go under the SS5B IC and I can't figure them out beyond there. At that point I verified 50% of the rest and then just copied and pasted kevtris's FME7 schematic.
byemu wrote:
Gimmick (J) use the cartridge pin 45 and 46!
Yes, it's a famicom game with expansion audio? The question was about the IC.
But here's my best effort, from looking at both sides of the board. Pins 3 and 18 I can't precisely follow.
Great work lidnariq, thanks for the effort! Could someone with the actual cart confirm that?
So what differs between Sunsoft-5A and FME-7?
B00daW wrote:
So what differs between Sunsoft-5A and FME-7?
Need more test!
I bet testing an NSF with a Sunsoft-5A cart dongled to a TNS-HFC3 cart would be enlightening. ENIO could also pay a roll in helping out with a lot more debugging and discoveries.
jpx72 wrote:
I have knowledge that some Dodge Danpei and Gremlins 2 cartridges (both Famicom)
can have the Sunsoft 5B mapper inside .
But according to NEScartDB (
Gimmick-
Gremlins2)the original Gimmick (J) has it wired differently and added 4 caps and 3 resistors. Can anyone who actually owns Gimmick (J) trace the connections of the mapper to see where the extra components are connected to? On nesdev wiki about
Sunsoft5b pinout is a information about relation of pins 3 or 18 with audio output, but on the PCB photo it looks like nothing is connected to these pins...
There is some traces
under the chip. Anyone want to crack their Gimmick and desolder mapper chip? C'mon, it's for science
80sFREAK wrote:
There is some traces
under the chip. Anyone want to crack their Gimmick and desolder mapper chip? C'mon, it's for science
We do have multimeters now a days with such things like continuity check that allow you to answer these questions by non-destructive means...
The keyword is "crack" and "desolder" is just to make it more dramatic
Still no volunteers
B00daW wrote:
I bet testing an NSF with a Sunsoft-5A cart dongled to a TNS-HFC3 cart would be enlightening.
I'd be more than happy to give this a go, but there are three main problems: first of all, there's no guarantee you'll end up with a cartridge with a 5A in it - it could be a 5B instead of a 5A, as has been known to happen since they appear to be interchangeable. Which brings me to the second problem: whichever the case, you'd need to add in your own circuit to the Gremlins cart, because the top row of the chip (which is where the audio pins are located in the 5B at least) isn't connected to anything. Although I'm sure most of you lot could handle that part, it is far beyond my own capabilities (I'm a musician, nothing more). Lastly, I'm not exactly rich myself, and semi-rare Famicom games like these can cost quite a bit of money I can't afford to spend right now, so I wouldn't be the one financing this project I'm afraid.
I do have a TNS-HFC3, however (it's in jarhmander's hands undergoing maintenance right now, but there's a good chance I'll have it back in working order). So if someone is willing to take the plunge and order one of these Gremlins carts, mod it and send it to me for testing, then sure I'll be glad to oblige - but there's probably not much I could do that someone with a Power Pak couldn't, anyway (swap tests etc.).
Hello
I actually bought two Famicom Gremlins 2 carts to use the 5b's audio, but sadly BOTH had 5a's. I've unsoldered the two rom chips on it and was about to put the Gimmick eproms on it but i got bored, and started hacking something else.
If there's real interest i could finish the work and confirm whether or not 5a generates audio.
Not sure why it makes it a sad discovery, but yes, if you can find out what the 5A is capable of doing, that would be great. A pin-out would be nice too.
B00daW wrote:
Not sure why it makes it a sad discovery, but yes, if you can find out what the 5A is capable of doing, that would be great. A pin-out would be nice too.
Its sad because all I wanted was a 5B. In any case I bought 3 more Gremlins carts, so while five units is not a huge statistical sample, if they are all 5A's I would consider the nescartdb Gremlin's 5b a fluke, and I'll abandon the idea.
BTW I've completed my hack and the 5A doesn't seem to generate anything when playing Gimmick roms.
Does it generate anything else if i randomly write to its address space? No clue.
I'll post more info on my blog soon.
I can confirm, that Gremlins(J) has 5A, not 5B.
After opening _five_ Japanese gremlins carts, they were _all_ 5a's.
While bootgod's scan is a 5b:
http://bootgod.dyndns.org:7777/profile.php?id=3805Huge monster fluke that was...
I think i will now abandon this silly idea
I would bet that using similar schematics to that of the FME-7 audio addition, the AY-whatever chip could be added for this functionality.
mikejmoffitt wrote:
I would bet that using similar schematics to that of the FME-7 audio addition, the AY-whatever chip could be added for this functionality.
I've no doubt. But I wanted the real generator for my own analysis.
Maybe send in the other versions to bootgod's site.
my research for mapper 69
Code:
name prg-size chr-size mapper can bank to 6000 bank-sram other
Barcode World 128 256 FME-7 no yes
Batman 128 128 5a no unknow
Dynamite Batman 128 256 FME-7 unknow unknow 8k-sram
Gimmick! 256 128 5b yes unknow ex-sound
Gremlins 2 128 256 5b/5a yes unknow
Hebereke 128 128 FME-7 unknow unknow
Dodge Danpei 128 256 FME-7 yes unknow
Dodge Danpei2 256 256 FME-7 unknow yes
Pyokotan no Dai Meiro 128 128 FME-7 unknow unknow
sunsoft 5a can't bank any to 6000~7fff?
sunsoft 5b can bank prg to 6000~7FFF?
sunsoft fme-7 can bank prg to 6000~7FFF and can bank sram to 6000~7fff?
Given that Gimmick! will run on my FME-7 socketed board, other than the audio does the 5B present much else in differences to FME-7?
Looking at the register layout of the
FME-7, only one thing comes to mind to test: given the differences between the Namco 163/175/340, it's remotely plausible that pseudoregister 8 (controlling the bank at $6000) might behave differently? (See also byemu's post) I see no reason to suspect that any other behavioral differences will exist.
It's remotely conceivable that the FME-7 and 5a might do something funny with register writes to $C000 and $E000. (what? who knows. maybe pins 3 and 18 are digital outputs).
It would be interesting to know, since you've got the sockets already, whether pseudoregister 8 still drives lines
PRG ROM A13…A18 according to the latched value when it's configured to RAM. (in other words, it would be nice to know if the
musing on the wiki about bankable prg-ram is true or not)
lidnariq wrote:
Looking at the register layout of the
FME-7, only one thing comes to mind to test: given the differences between the Namco 163/175/340, it's remotely plausible that pseudoregister 8 (controlling the bank at $6000) might behave differently? (See also byemu's post) I see no reason to suspect that any other behavioral differences will exist.
It's remotely conceivable that the FME-7 and 5a might do something funny with register writes to $C000 and $E000. (what? who knows. maybe pins 3 and 18 are digital outputs).
It would be interesting to know, since you've got the sockets already, whether pseudoregister 8 still drives lines
PRG ROM A13…A18 according to the latched value when it's configured to RAM. (in other words, it would be nice to know if the
musing on the wiki about bankable prg-ram is true or not)
I have three carts,Barcode World (J),Batman (J),Gremlin 2 - Shinshu Tanjou (J).
I'm try to debug on kazzo.
The results are:
Barcode World(FME-7) only bank sram to 6000~7fff (can't bank prg-rom to here)
Batman (5a) can't bank anything to 6000~7fff (no sram on this game)
Gremlin 2(5a) can bank prg-rom to 6000~7fff (be marked as 5b in "NES Cart Database")
The circuit of Batman and Gremlin 2 on prg is exactly the same.
byemu wrote:
Batman (5a) can't bank anything to 6000~7fff (no sram on this game)
Gremlin 2(5a) can bank prg-rom to 6000~7fff (be marked as 5b in "NES Cart Database")
So you're saying that two different cartridges, both with a Sunsoft 5a, respond to writes to register 8 differently?
Is it correct to say that the Batman cartridge is entirely ignoring writes to register 8?
Does Gremlins 2 pay attention to the top two bits of register 8? (In other words, can it ever
not map prg-rom in?)
CNROM and AOROM use the same IC, but they act very differently. Several cartridges with certain Konami VRC series ICs respond differently based on which lower address lines are connected to the mapper's register select lines. There are about 14 possible combinations, with nearly half of them attested. Likewise, it's possible to have the chips ignore certain enable signals output by the mapper by playing with how the signals are routed on the PCB.
tepples wrote:
Likewise, it's possible to have the chips ignore certain enable signals output by the mapper by playing with how the signals are routed on the PCB.
byemu wrote:
The circuit of Batman and Gremlin 2 on prg is exactly the same.
Looking at
http://bootgod.dyndns.org:7777/profile.php?id=3145 and
http://bootgod.dyndns.org:7777/profile.php?id=3805, I have to agree: The portion of the PCB dedicated to PRG does not differ.
lidnariq wrote:
byemu wrote:
Batman (5a) can't bank anything to 6000~7fff (no sram on this game)
Gremlin 2(5a) can bank prg-rom to 6000~7fff (be marked as 5b in "NES Cart Database")
So you're saying that two different cartridges, both with a Sunsoft 5a, respond to writes to register 8 differently?
Is it correct to say that the Batman cartridge is entirely ignoring writes to register 8?
Does Gremlins 2 pay attention to the top two bits of register 8? (In other words, can it ever
not map prg-rom in?)
Yeah, that's exactly what I was saying.
A bit Offtopic, The Title of this thread has a typo, It's SUNSOFT, not SUBNSOFT
Also, This is getting more interesting!
Hamtaro126 wrote:
A bit Offtopic, The Title of this thread has a typo, It's SUNSOFT, not SUBNSOFT
Also, This is getting more interesting!
I corrected the title!
byemu wrote:
my research for mapper 69
Code:
name prg-size chr-size mapper can bank to 6000 bank-sram other
Barcode World 128 256 FME-7 no yes
Batman 128 128 5a no unknow
Dynamite Batman 128 256 FME-7 unknow unknow 8k-sram
Gimmick! 256 128 5b yes unknow ex-sound
Gremlins 2 128 256 5b/5a yes unknow
Hebereke 128 128 FME-7 unknow unknow
Dodge Danpei 128 256 FME-7 yes unknow
Dodge Danpei2 256 256 FME-7 unknow yes
Pyokotan no Dai Meiro 128 128 FME-7 unknow unknow
sunsoft 5a can't bank any to 6000~7fff?
sunsoft 5b can bank prg to 6000~7FFF?
sunsoft fme-7 can bank prg to 6000~7FFF and can bank sram to 6000~7fff?
update:
1 mapper 69 can bank sram or prg at 6000~7FFF,but can't bank them at the same board!
make a flash cartridge with kazzo's way, the flash /ce need connect to fme-7(5a,5b)(if you want to bank it to 6000~7fff)
2 This board has the Timing Problem,so some flash can't use here(only a few 29 series can work perfect)
lidnariq wrote:
It would be interesting to know, since you've got the sockets already, whether pseudoregister 8 still drives lines
PRG ROM A13…A18 according to the latched value when it's configured to RAM. (in other words, it would be nice to know if the
musing on the wiki about bankable prg-ram is true or not)
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=12467&start=0
byemu wrote:
2 This board has the Timing Problem,so some flash can't use here(only a few 29 series can work perfect)
The problem could be the flash /WE pin. Original pinout has the pin connected to one of the mapper address pins and the mapper tend to drive it low, cause the flash to enter write mode and depending on what happens when the CPU crash might even corrupt what is written on the flash.
We recently tested the mapper capability for $6000 region and it could use as much as 128KB of RAM there.
l_oliveira wrote:
byemu wrote:
2 This board has the Timing Problem,so some flash can't use here(only a few 29 series can work perfect)
The problem could be the flash /WE pin. Original pinout has the pin connected to one of the mapper address pins and the mapper tend to drive it low, cause the flash to enter write mode and depending on what happens when the CPU crash might even corrupt what is written on the flash.
We recently tested the mapper capability for $6000 region and it could use as much as 128KB of RAM there.
Thank you very much!
I found "AM29F002NT-120PC 9830MBM J @1996 AMD" on a batman cart is OK(not need a 7400).
But other Am29f002 are not ok.
I've just do a Gimmick Repro out of Barcode World (FME-7), without desoldering SRAM chip (gimmick banks PRG-ROM at $6000-$7fff)
http://bootgod.dyndns.org:7777/profile.php?id=1543and it works without problems so saying that FME7 cannot bank ROM at $6000-$7fff is not true.
BTW. I am having this cartridge for a few days so if anyone wants any special FME-7 tests then feel free to ask.
krzysiobal wrote:
I've just do a Gimmick Repro out of Barcode World (FME-7), without desoldering SRAM chip (gimmick banks PRG-ROM at $6000-$7fff)
http://bootgod.dyndns.org:7777/profile.php?id=1543and it works without problems so saying that FME7 cannot bank ROM at $6000-$7fff is not true.
BTW. I am having this cartridge for a few days so if anyone wants any special FME-7 tests then feel free to ask.
I don't know why you saw a problem with that. The ROM and RAM have separated chip enables, both generated by the FME7 chip. When a ROM region is selected in the banking register, the RAM isn't activated by the FME-7 chip, we having the ROM activated instead. That was never thought to be a problem.