A guy goes on vacation for two days and all hell breaks loose...

A couple things:

Though I maintain the Hall of Shame, I have no control over the HoS icons as I am not a mod.

The HoS is not a place to crucify members, it is simply a collection of information so any member can look up other members' past questionable dealings and decide for themselves if they want to deal with a member. I understand that some members don't care if people take a while to ship. Personally, I have issue with paying for an item and waiting many months to over a YEAR to obtain said item. What's the best part? You can decide for yourself if slow shipping is worth it to you! This is becuase you've been informed.

The main reason I decided to take over the HoS is not only because Mario's Left Nut took a leave of absence (we still miss you Vito), but because Justabum was back up to his old shit and many, many people were unaware of his past felonious activities. I don't want ANYTHING swept under a rug or forgotten. The more information members here have, the more informed decision they can make before they decide to deal with a member and hopefully the less likely it will be for someone to have a negative dealing.

Gottahavegaming is a perfect example. I have has several members contact me over negative dealings they have had with gottahavegaming, most of which occurred in the NA auction section. If he keeps his nose clean, I'm sure eventually he will lose his icon (again, I have no control over that), but his past poor dealings will ALWAYS be present in the Hall of Shame. This isn't so that he has no chance at redemption, but so that members know what he has done in the past and use that information to decide if they would like to deal with them in the future.

Bella: Many of the members that have just a name and no description (actually, I think all of them) are carry overs from Mario's Left Nut's original HoS thread. The info wasn't given, so the names just came over. The site was MUCH smaller then, so I'm sure they are on there with good reason, though at this point I can't verify.

MRN: Totally agree, deleting stuff likely wouldn't do any good in that thread at all. Completely off topic posts like Pedro's recent ramblings have no place there and I would love if they were minimized.

OSG: If anyone tries to manipulate me by falsifying information so that a member gets placed in the hall, the admin team is capable of going through PM's from both members. The odds of that happening is extremely unlikely. Also, I don't mind side conversations in most threads, but the more bullshit in the thread, the more difficult it will be for members for research past bad dealings listed in the thread.

Dr. Robbie: Those distinctions ARE made in the thread, there are several different categories. If you'd like a distinction by icon, again, I have no control over that.

TheNEScollector: That is not the way to use the Hall of Shame. If someone is in the hall, take a second to look up why (as it should be indicated in the first post), then decide if that member is worth dealing with. Straight scammers get banned, so for the most part everyone in the Hall of Shame that is an active member should fall short of being a full blown scammer.

For those who recommend that a badge "disappear" after a certain period of time, I have no issue with that. I do want you to know however that all of those past dealings will remain on the list. Ars2pd and Bella's past issues will always be on the list as their past issues have already occurred. Once you start removing information from the list based on member standing, you open the flood gates to allow people like Justabum and Hounder to fuck over the entire community AGAIN because new members are unaware of what they have done in the past. Not gonna happen, sorry guys.

I work pretty hard to keep that list up to date, and mods like Qix ensure that people don't fuck around with other members' money. I'm doig my best, but I'm always open to suggestions.

I think this is a good thread. We can discuss stuff here about the HOS and leave the bullshit out of that thread. Maybe we can just change the title here to HOS Civil Discussion or something. Thanks Mark for maintaining this monster of a project, we really appreciate it.

^That's a cool idea Josh. As someone who has had concerns with the thread previously (and obviously gone about it the wrong way), it'll be nice to have a place for some civil discussion.

I'm going to start by reposting my question here, in the appropriate place:

what happened to just deleting non-relevant posts? I mean, why not just clear out pedro's post and be done with it, as it's not relevant to the thread?

I see MRN posted that deleting things in the thread is a bad idea, and while that makes sense for not deleting the inane responses by member's who are arguing over their inclusion, pedro's recent posts bear no relevance whatsoever. I can understand you maybe wanting to leave them now so that people can see that he's been a pretty antagonistic guy and might now think twice about buying from him, but why'd it go so far first? This would seem to be a perfect case where the "mod powers" he doesn't like you having would have been exercised very legitimately. Also, this isn't a criticism of qixmaster or any mod/admin! I'm just asking could/should this be a good policy in the future?

^exactly Jon, i don't want them deleted at all because I hate it when people think we are censoring the site. I am 100% free speech and deleting is an option, but people who have problems with MODs and their ability to do such get super quick paranoia. I think anything posted in the last two days can stay there so long the rest of it (from here on out) stays on topic. If anyone wants to discuss this person to person I am availible for video chat, phone calls, whatever. I want NA to be a safe place always and I am always open to constructive criticism, comments or concerns. Posting passive agressive comments, agressive comments, irrellevent comments and/or junk in a thread or a PM to me gets you absolutely nowhere.

why delete anything? let those asshole comments stand- usually the poster is the one who looks like an asshole, not the target of his post.

and as far as the responses to the comments, how bout some poise? it's an internet site on gaming, man up. qix's three paragraph post bashing pedro was a fun read, but it is embarrassing to the other mods who work towards quelling that sort of behavior in order to foster a community based on a shared hobby. it's just a gaming site, a great one, but nothing more- why freak out?

I haven't read the HoS stuff yet, I'll get to that some other time.

However, I'm a HUGE fan of the positive and negative feedback system as used by eBay. The only reason I'm not advocating it is because I did comp sci all through college and know what a bitch it can be to code it. It should have been one of those design phase ideas.

If we had a positive / negative system, members like Burnambill (Nick Morgan) would never appear to be well-standing members.

Before I knew him and joined the site, I saw him with 100 feedback, back at a time when very few members were at this level. I figured he was a real stand-up guy with great selling practices.

Then over the course of the next two months, I heard not one but two people gripe to me over PM about dealing with this guy. And I saw the way he posted, intentionally being an asshole at all possible times.

Yet he wasn't banned until a FULL YEAR later, for (what a surprise) scamming someone. Had I seen his feedback in a positive / negative style, I would have never thought of him as a stand-up guy.

The most people at risk are new guys like this, at the 3 week period, especially lurkers not up with the threads. What if they come in and make a several thousand dollar deal to someone with seemingly high feedback? I think that is part of a failure of the site to exhibit the seller as a potentially bad guy.

So I'm not sure of the logistics of porting it from one way to the other. But I think you have to at least recognize that the +/- system would have huge benefits.

As other's have said, qix doesn't really pull his punches. He is usually right, too (although he said I have an ego, which I guess I don't agree with [is that egotistical right there? {Damnit, this is all too confusing!}]). I wouldn't really call him abrasive, just more like "brutally honest". If any thread needs "brutal honesty" oversight, it's the HoS. I mean, re-read the thread. When he tells people to knock off their complaining, it often occurs in short order with the members involved. Not to mention, outside of the HoS, Josh is a very cool guy and contributes very helpfully to the community. Even though he gave me a smack for my comments in the HoS thread, I still felt comfortable enough to PM him some questions I had about a topic I know he has a lot of knowledge about. He has my respect enough for me to see through his occasional brutality, and it isn't because of his badge. I like all the mods around here, but Josh is the best man for the job in moderating the HoS.

I agree with you Jonas. +/- system would be great. Also, if something is really screwed up in a transaction and you are afraid of getting retalitory feedback if you post a negative/neutral, don't worry, we can always investigate and do have the power to remove stuff like that.

Real life is not clean and tidy. Issues are rarely black or white. Off-topic discussion is good, even if some deem it pointless. The way the thread runs now is fine - it allows others who have gotten bent over to realize they're not alone and to potentially work out problems that otherwise may not resolve.

I would change the HoS icon into:

HoS: This is the icon as it is now. You only get it if you directly cause the loss of money to another member. It stays forever. Get a Dumbass icon or another HoS infraction while already having a HoS icon and you are banned.

I'm A Dumbass: Slow shipment, bid retractions, late payments, bad service, etc. These stay for 2 weeks and then go away. Three of these and you get slapped with a HoS icon. Stack more than 3 at once, you get a HoS icon right away.

Can someone make a donkey icon? Either way I would have stacked 3 and got the dot...Too many people are trying to run from the dot. If you got it you DESERVE IT!! Get over it. It sure as hell makes people clean up their act. I should know

Don't we already have that +/- system in place? When you click on one user's feedback score, all the necessary information is displayed.

The only problem is that we're all big wusses when it comes to neg someone's ass on this site. Many of you guys remember the arkman1982 thread?

http://www.nintendoage.com/forum/...

^maybe like adding an extra number to the feedback score like your would say 57+/0- or something like that. I have no problem investigating negatives and resolving them so they do not affect someone in the wrong.

Yeah that might work just fine. I just don't see why changing feedback score display would be a good idea and creating more HoS icons wouldn't.

Not that I think we should have more icons, I'm all fine with current system. It's just that clicking on somebody's feedback score is less work than browsing through the Hall of Shame thread to gather information.

I'm not worried about that Markus. Obviously something akin to due process happens when issues are brought up to you or mods or admins or whatever. I meant if people are trying to work out issues in private, and member A says to member B he'll be 'sent to the HoS' as a thread to get a refund or something of that nature.

Obviously the man upstairs (Dain H. Anderson) can look at PMs, but suppose the victimised party doesn't say anything. Let's call this hypothetical member El Chump Grande. Nobody will look into something that nobody knows happened!

It's not something that I think is going to happen so holy shit time to freak out. It's not time to break out the ant-HoS pitchforks, I'm not going all angry mob up on this bitch. It's something that if it ever happens, that's a point where we should get our underwear in a bunch. That's all.

(NO DISCUSSION ALLOWED still seems to me like a silly thing to say on a discussion board but whatever)

i think for the feedback, it would be really nice if NEITHER of the scores were posted until both were submitted. That way, there is no chance of retaliatory feedback. Both either get posted at the same time, or don't get posted at all. that would help with making it more honest.

i do think a level system(or something similar) would be great. there is no distinction now between banned, scammer, or slow shipper (except in the HOS thread). I think it would be nice to have that information directly on the members info when they post in threads. But this isn't a major issue.

as dan mentioned earlier, having exact consequences for actions would be awesome. then people know what they have to do in order to remove an icon or the consequences for any particular action (ending an auction early or not following through with it because of a low price).

really liking this thread here guys. keep with the positive mojo

would also like to thank Mark for keeping the HOS thread updated. it is very useful and you do seem to get a ton of crap for doing what needs to be done.

I second that, it is better to have a seperate open ended discussion about the HOS outside of the actual thread. I think the HOS thread is invaluable to potential buyers and sellers on this site, but it becomes hard to look up the proper information if the thread is dominated with a bunch of stupid bitching and arguing that gets nowhere real fast.

I do believe that the system in place as far as feedback goes should remain the same, I think adding more and more features would just overcomplicate the process unnecessarily. Keep everything simple and streamlined for ease of use.

We've been kicking around a LOT of options on how to "fix" the feedback system, and this was one of the things we're seriously considering. Problem with this option is, if someone is feeling scammy and they know they're going to get a neg, they simply never leave feedback and never get the -1.

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Another option would be that if a user leaves a neg, the receiving party CANNOT immediately leave any feedback. Instead, potentially a remediation tool could be opened as part of the transaction, similar to Paypal's buyer dispute system. Possible outcomes would include:

1. Both parties cancel transaction, neg is rescinded and no feedback appears for either party (return/refund). Alternatively, this could force an auto-neutral.

2. Party issuing the neg chooses to modify the feedback; if they change to positive they get an auto-positive from the receiving party. If they change to neutral, the receiving party has the choice to leave neutral or positive.

3. Party issuing the neg does not wish to cancel or change feedback (or takes no action): After some statutory period, the "dispute" is closed and the receiving party can leave whatever feedback they wish.

^Very interesting ideas. How would #3 protect a person from retaliatory negative feedback, though?

not sure, but you can always personally PM me and I will look into transactions issues.

Wow. I just got back now and I am having a thread overload. Good ideas guys. Keep 'em coming. To quillavoie who was saying that there already is a feedback system, I meant one that was directly visible at all times by people's posts so that there is a (as much as it can be) real-time feedback meter. Possibly, if there is a dispute with the feedback, the counter in the profile can contain a small button which initiates a dispute that alerts an admin to BS feedback, similar to what someone posted earlier. Or, we can just keep it simple and use the nice PM system.

My suggestion was to have something like a green + number and a red - number by each persons user name.  That way you can see their + and - feedback on every single post they make and you don't have to do all the legwork.

When someone has over 100 feedback, they probably have 130-150 total, but only 100 are distinct.  So then if you want to find the negatives, you potentially have to browse 15 pages (I think we're limited to 10 per page?) of feedback looking for negatives.

Surely a simple red - number by their name would simply matters.

Ebay realized their system was broke and has now made their negatives clickable links so you don't have to browse thousands of feedbacks.  At the bare minimum, it'd be nice to incorporate that here too.

I thought that was my idea. Jk. And I most definitely agree. I think the linking + and - thing would be great, though I wonder how difficult that would be to incorporate...

The +/- idea is much better than the big red exclamation mark IMO.

The problem is, not every entry in the HoS involves a transaction. The +/- system is a good feedback system, but the red exclamation mark is still necessary. They are two completely different things.

^ agreed