Hi guys,

maybe some guys here missed it...

I only ran into this KS yesterday.

What do you guys think?

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/artix/dungeons-and-doom...

Please add [NESMaker] to your title.

It could be good, but there was not enough information there for me to back it.

That's what is holding me back aswell atm. That and the fact that infinite nes lives is making cartridges and packaging(not sure)??? 

I've bought Lizard in the past and I was dissapointed by the quality of the packaging. label corners cut with a random corner cutter, box printing of low quality, manual not stapled very good, tear in the box, ...
 

No gameplay video is a no from me, dawg

If this game is a success we can buy it afterwards anyway

This will probably be the first NESMaker game I ever play so it'll be my impression on the tool as a whole. A gold cart more than doubles the price of the existing CIB level, and currently has more backers than the gray cart so it's actually more common lmao. Can't wait for a whole new era of faux limited editions as NESMaker games hit the market!

You can the game online here : http://arcade.thenew8bitheroes.co...

I just backed this, got the digital package. Looks great and these guys apparently have a track record of well-regarded games behind them. I'm stoked.

I played the demo from the Nesmaker website and was wholly unimpressed. Will be curious to hear people's reactions when the real game comes out. Makes me laugh that they haven't even fulfilled their previous two Kickstarters though.

The demo is rough. If you spam the attack button, the axe position glitches. There is also no attack animation, so your character's arm looks like it vanishes. You can movie in 4 directions, but can only attack to the sides. This works in beat-em-ups like Double Dragon, but this game feels more like it's trying to be like Zelda, so it feels odd. No audio or knockback when you're damaged. No diagonal movement, so control feels very stiff. No pause button or submenu. Immediate slowdown the first time enemies appear on-screen. Sprites look pretty decent though. Suddenly, I can see why there are only screenshots and no gameplay footage. This game is far from being ready to be played in its current state.

I do think NESMaker has the potential to produce good games (Dimension Shift feels great to be honest), but it also allows for lazy cash-ins. This game appears to be the latter. Stiff, glitchy controls, and zero depth. Stuff like this is fine if you're just throwing together a demo and learning the ropes, but once you start asking people for money, you should have a more polished product.

I quoted your post in a comment to the creator.  Here is his reply:

"Thank you for the compliment on the sprites. Yes, the 2019 Byte'Off Demo was indeed rough. Very glad to say that all of the glitchy, spammy, weird attack bugs have long been fixed along with the slowdown (a bug in the side scrolling module), monster deaths, drops, and and the screen trigger bug that prevented the demo from having the intended strategy required to unlock the ending.

 

As a Zeldavania that is also inspired by our online game AdventureQuest Worlds, the 2D movement and right/left side attacking is intentional. That is how AdventureQuest Worlds plays. Originally we wanted to darken the back leg and arm like it is in the other game, but with only 3 colors per tile it just looked better the way we have it in the current graphics (as shown.) The NES's 8 sprites per scan-line have been the biggest challenge with this direction. 

 

I hope that you enjoy the art, humor, and challenge of the finished game."

 

While I wish the team luck with the game, judging from the demo (nesmaker submission) I would only personally think that the demo only represents 1/100 of what the final game should be like. While its great to get lots of funding for a project, because then you can really make a great game, I personally feel that it was too soon to start making plans for a big game given the current state of the nesmaker program. The nesmaker program is evolving fast and going through many changes and versions, I would think that you would wait for the program to mature first then make an epic game. So to me it just seems like delivering a baby premature.

But it could be a great game, we will just have to wait and see what the final product looks like. Also, someone mentioned that they are starting a new kickstarter when they have other kickstarters that they haven't finished yet. If this is true then this really is a crime. Finish one kickstarter first then you can do another one.

I backed it, so I certainly hope it turns out great!

The graphics and artwork are Well Done, I have to admit. But I'm uncertain about the gameplay. I'm sure NESMaker will enhance development time, can't wait to see  

Is there a reason we are now requiring NESMaker tags? Wouldn't they just fit under the category of homebrew?

The tags exist so that we can easily identify what we are looking at. Repros, hacks, homebrews, tech, and now NESMaker. There is a difference in activity between someone programming a game from the gorund up, and someone using a game creation tool to create a game. Joe has encouraged people using the tool to label them as such, and to not hide that they are using his tool to create their games. There is a recognized difference that NESMaker promotes.

People can define the categories any which way (or argue about them and nitpick terms to no end), but there is a genuine difference in activity on the creation side of things. Games are the result of all of them, and that is all that some people care about. To many of us, however, we have a specific interest in one category or another, or no interest in certain categories at all. Labels help with easy identification.

I have always found it interesting how differences in product are seen, only when it is advantageous for "major parties" of a scene.  Years back I clearly remember discussing about homebrew games versus commercial (unlicensed) games with you, about some of these items...that was before you suddenly became terribly frosty towards me    A saint like Aleksander Chudov or Hwang Shinwei, aren't they in the same league as Sivak, and basically any other one-man team that produced games for use on the Nintendo / Famicom?  By now it has come to a point where we are splitting hairs, and the NESMaker situation highlights this clearly.

You say yourself that "[t]here is a difference in activity between someone programming a game from the gorund up, and someone using a game creation tool to create a game", so would you not agree that Mr. Chudov and Mr. Hwang fall into the same category as Mr. Sivak and others (GreetingCarts, KHAN, and whoever else made homebrew games from the ground up)?  Or is that a flat out no, since those guys did it allegedly for monetary purposes, and the others were doing it allegedly for hobbyist reasons?  Interesting, it all seems the same to me.

Now, we have stumbled upon a similar issue.  It is obvious why there is so much gatekeeping regarding NESMaker - Joe Granato made a product, and he wants to protect his repuation, protect his project, sell copies of his software for money, stay out of legal trouble, etc etc etc.  But just to ask the question begged to be asked, did Mr. Joe have the right to even use the NES name in his product to begin with?  He basically made an unlicensed product to help other people create unlicensed products... can we really say more about it?

It is clear to me and some others that the real situation at line is that there is some snobbery going on here, in which NESMaker games are seen as less than something that was produced from the ground up.  I can understand that the old guard might feel a bit frustrated that now everyone and his / her uncle is producing a "new game", but just gotta learn to accept and adapt.  Despite all the criticism towards NESMaker, I'd even venture a guess that a lot of the "from the ground up" stuff is of the same calibre as some of the NESMaker stuff.  I've said it quite a bit over the years, but there are very few Battle Kids in the homebrew world.   

Everyone, if you take the time to design up a game, just label it as [Homebrew] .   It's only snobbery and marketing that suggests you do otherwise  

 

Dave's personal war returns! Different conversation, same illogic.

Calling something what it is is pretty straightforward. There are very few people who would want to obscure that, except those seeking to profit by confusion (example: repros on eBay with the title "L@@K Homebrew rarez"). As always you seek to muddy the waters for some personal agenda, generally behaving like an ass to anyone and everyone along the way. Even better when you're just arguing to argue versus having any real experience making games. That holds true for your Taiwanese stuff too. You really have no clue what you are talking about from a dev or cultural perspective, you just like to play the martyred warrior for a cause that is not your own (and maybe not even a cause anyways).

And we did have some ok conversations way back when. I figured that someone who respected and researched the very fascinating scene over in China would be someone who could have some decent opinions and might be after a bit of truth instead of petty arguments. Live and learn. It is sad too since your association with the Taiwanese scene gives it a sour taste from the start for most people. Standing in the way of people caring about things that are rightly interesting.

If you want to class them all the same in that illogical track of yours, go for it. I do not expect you to care for any of this since it does not further whatever goal you are after this week. The distinction is useful for the community, both on the dev and consumer side. Every new homebrew gets asked if it is a NESMaker game, with people either thinking that is a good or bad thing. We are just helping gain clarification from the start, partciularly if a dev is trying to hide the fact that they have used someone else's tool.

And again, no one is making judgment calls one way or the other for NESMaker stuff. All that is being asked for is clarity and honesty. In the end they are all games, which is great. Don't bring your own views of perceived snobbery into this, which are really just fictitious things that give you an excuse to start senseless arguments.

But hey, welcome to the Dave show. It's been in re-runs for years, and shows no signs of stopping.

Come to think of it, you telling people to do or not do something is probably the best way we have of making sure that everyone is on board to do the opposite. So thanks!

And as always, none of this is relevant to the current game/topic at hand, but you never have any respect for that so why would you start now.

@SoleGooseProductions:  I'm not the only one with this same feeling at hand, regarding the new era of homebrew games created with a program such as NESMaker (gui + options to alter the code anyway one sees fit), versus typing out lines of code in assembly, unassisted.  Come to think of it though, a lot of developers back in the day even produced development tools to assist in developing games, and aside from the quality of the game, I honestly don't think anyone bats an eye for how those were created.

I want to go back to something you said earlier, that "[t]here is a difference in activity between someone programming a game from the gorund [sic] up, and someone using a game creation tool to create their games."  Please elaborate to me on this one.  I eagerly await your response.  It just sounds to me as though those who have developed from the ground up don't want NESMaker games thrown into the same category, since the latter isn't "as purist", I guess, since it removes some of the effort and drastically lowers the bar of entry.  If this is nt the case, then please tell me why NESMaker games wouldn't qualify under the homebrew title and be considered homebrew games.  As far as Mr. Granato's feelings towards the situation, it is more than likely a business situation, as I had mentioned earlier.  Promote your brand, get more users, etc.  So let's leave that part out of the discussion and just discuss this point in hand, why you (and some others?) don't want to classify a whole selection of games as homebrews.       

To quote an anonymous NA user:  "Games should be judged by the finished product, not the tools used in creating them."


 

Last comment first: labelling things is not the same as judging them. Judge the games all you want by the finished product, but there is no reason to hide the process.

You may not be alone in how you feel (though I suspect you largely are), but there is a genuine interest in people as to whether a game was programmed from the ground up, or if it was made using someone else's tool. It is a simple, neutral, judgment free thing. That is something to be respected, and not obscured.

There is a descriptive difference in activity between someone writing code, and someone making a game using a game creation tool. It is as simple as that. That is what the forum labels are for; a hack is a hack, a homebrew a homebrew, and a repro a repro. It is not about elitism, or a purist thing, but the activity that is taking place. Whether people decide one way or another on those issues, or judge projects based on how they are made, is a separate step. Highlighting the differences is a way of respecting people's right to think freely and intelligently about things, instead of blinding them to the differences.

As for the rest, there is no point in commenting. You're going to run your little Dave show regardless, and find an exception to any and every argument. They are good points, and things to think about, but we know how you run these things. The only real way to get ahead in a conversation with someone who is always right is to not have that conversation at all.

For me the label is for informational purposes.

I find the distinctions especially useful as I try to understand the diversity of what is being produced in the community. Understanding which are hacks, repros, and translations is important to me in striving to maintain an "ethical collection", or as much of one as possible. As far as NESmaker vs ground-up homebrews, I think of both categories as homebrews overall but also very different categories that reflect the time, money, and effort that went into each game as well as helping understand how I want to spend my money since I can only buy so many games at a time. I don't think less of either category, but if I want to be an informed customer or investor, I appreciate understanding as much about what's behind each game.

While I can understand the part of time / effort, could you please elaborate a bit on the money part?  I'm a bit confused as to this. Perhaps you could provide a scenario about it?