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May 2, 2013 at 9:18:56 AM
arch_8ngel (68)
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Originally posted by: Br81zad

It's no secret that new age medicine has lead to sustained population booms, I sincerely doubt that our progress as a species will be stymied because a small minority elect not to procreate.

Please don't confuse "new age medicine" with modern medicine.

Very different things.


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May 2, 2013 at 9:24:20 AM
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VGS_Br81zad (97)
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Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

Originally posted by: Br81zad

It's no secret that new age medicine has lead to sustained population booms, I sincerely doubt that our progress as a species will be stymied because a small minority elect not to procreate.

Please don't confuse "new age medicine" with modern medicine.

Very different things.
 


lol, right. I'm not talking about healing crystals here

EDIT:: fixed

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Edited: 05/02/2013 at 09:25 AM by VGS_Br81zad

May 2, 2013 at 10:50:32 AM
buttheadrulesagain (20)
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Originally posted by: Br81zad

Dude, Chinaman is not the prefered nomenclature. Asian American, please.

Also, to play devil's advocate, how can you definitively say that the darwinian stance is even more wrong? Might this be a latent population control device to prevent overcrowding? It's no secret that modern medicine has lead to sustained population booms, I sincerely doubt that our progress as a species will be stymied because a small minority elect not to procreate.

"A latent population control device you say? Surely you're joking" - probably what you're thinking

But it's not an unheard of phenomenon in nature for this sort of change to occur. Take the grasshopper for instance. When the population density of grasshoppers grows too high, a chemical in their brain is released triggering physical changes that turn them into locusts. Dont believe me? Read this.
http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/a-brain-chemical-changes-...

My point is, maybe we have evolved to the point where the need for every human to procreate is not so vital to our survival anymore. It could be part of our evolution.

Our brain is much more complex than a grasshoppers, I know this. But couldn't something along these lines be a possibility?

Biological Evolution doesn't work that way. All that matters for evolution is that the trait selected for gives an advantage for reproduction, so the gene(s) related to that trait will have more copies in the next generation.


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May 2, 2013 at 10:52:22 AM
buttheadrulesagain (20)
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Originally posted by: cosmicjim


Defective is even MORE WRONG in the darwinian sense.

 

It's certainly not the technical term we biologists use. We prefer "disadvantageous", or "maladaptive".



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May 2, 2013 at 11:18:41 AM
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VGS_Br81zad (97)
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Originally posted by: buttheadrulesagain

Originally posted by: Br81zad

Dude, Chinaman is not the prefered nomenclature. Asian American, please.

Also, to play devil's advocate, how can you definitively say that the darwinian stance is even more wrong? Might this be a latent population control device to prevent overcrowding? It's no secret that modern medicine has lead to sustained population booms, I sincerely doubt that our progress as a species will be stymied because a small minority elect not to procreate.

"A latent population control device you say? Surely you're joking" - probably what you're thinking

But it's not an unheard of phenomenon in nature for this sort of change to occur. Take the grasshopper for instance. When the population density of grasshoppers grows too high, a chemical in their brain is released triggering physical changes that turn them into locusts. Dont believe me? Read this.
http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/a-brain-chemical-changes-...

My point is, maybe we have evolved to the point where the need for every human to procreate is not so vital to our survival anymore. It could be part of our evolution.

Our brain is much more complex than a grasshoppers, I know this. But couldn't something along these lines be a possibility?

Biological Evolution doesn't work that way. All that matters for evolution is that the trait selected for gives an advantage for reproduction, so the gene(s) related to that trait will have more copies in the next generation.
 

So I guess the real question is what causes certain individuals to be attracted to the same sex? Is it a trait? An abnormality in the brain itself?  It's not a choice, I think that much has been discovered.

And as you called it, maladaptive. Is it far fetched to see maladaptive traits perpetuate given that we have moved past fighting for survival? I'm genuinely curious. I'm a mechanical engineer with zero bio background, lol

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May 2, 2013 at 11:32:07 AM
buyatari2 (30)

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Originally posted by: Br81zad

Originally posted by: buttheadrulesagain

Originally posted by: Br81zad

Dude, Chinaman is not the prefered nomenclature. Asian American, please.

Also, to play devil's advocate, how can you definitively say that the darwinian stance is even more wrong? Might this be a latent population control device to prevent overcrowding? It's no secret that modern medicine has lead to sustained population booms, I sincerely doubt that our progress as a species will be stymied because a small minority elect not to procreate.

"A latent population control device you say? Surely you're joking" - probably what you're thinking

But it's not an unheard of phenomenon in nature for this sort of change to occur. Take the grasshopper for instance. When the population density of grasshoppers grows too high, a chemical in their brain is released triggering physical changes that turn them into locusts. Dont believe me? Read this.
http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/a-brain-chemical-changes-...

My point is, maybe we have evolved to the point where the need for every human to procreate is not so vital to our survival anymore. It could be part of our evolution.

Our brain is much more complex than a grasshoppers, I know this. But couldn't something along these lines be a possibility?

Biological Evolution doesn't work that way. All that matters for evolution is that the trait selected for gives an advantage for reproduction, so the gene(s) related to that trait will have more copies in the next generation.
 

So I guess the real question is what causes certain individuals to be attracted to the same sex? Is it a trait? An abnormality in the brain itself?  It's not a choice, I think that much has been discovered.

And as you called it, maladaptive. Is it far fetched to see maladaptive traits perpetuate given that we have moved past fighting for survival? I'm genuinely curious. I'm a mechanical engineer with zero bio background, lol

I'm not so sure it is one thing across the board. We really haven't been able to nail down many behavior in humans to a single cause no matter how much we have tried.

It is possible that in one case a man was born leaning this way and still possible that a woman somewhere else was screwed over one too many times by men, hates men now.


May 2, 2013 at 1:12:45 PM
buttheadrulesagain (20)
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(Jorge Juarez) < King Solomon >
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Originally posted by: Br81zad

Originally posted by: buttheadrulesagain

Originally posted by: Br81zad

Dude, Chinaman is not the prefered nomenclature. Asian American, please.

Also, to play devil's advocate, how can you definitively say that the darwinian stance is even more wrong? Might this be a latent population control device to prevent overcrowding? It's no secret that modern medicine has lead to sustained population booms, I sincerely doubt that our progress as a species will be stymied because a small minority elect not to procreate.

"A latent population control device you say? Surely you're joking" - probably what you're thinking

But it's not an unheard of phenomenon in nature for this sort of change to occur. Take the grasshopper for instance. When the population density of grasshoppers grows too high, a chemical in their brain is released triggering physical changes that turn them into locusts. Dont believe me? Read this.
http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/a-brain-chemical-changes-...

My point is, maybe we have evolved to the point where the need for every human to procreate is not so vital to our survival anymore. It could be part of our evolution.

Our brain is much more complex than a grasshoppers, I know this. But couldn't something along these lines be a possibility?

Biological Evolution doesn't work that way. All that matters for evolution is that the trait selected for gives an advantage for reproduction, so the gene(s) related to that trait will have more copies in the next generation.
 

So I guess the real question is what causes certain individuals to be attracted to the same sex? Is it a trait? An abnormality in the brain itself?  It's not a choice, I think that much has been discovered.

And as you called it, maladaptive. Is it far fetched to see maladaptive traits perpetuate given that we have moved past fighting for survival? I'm genuinely curious. I'm a mechanical engineer with zero bio background, lol

One hypothesis is that there are genes related to homosexuality, but they only express if certain environmental cues are present during development. That's why homosexual people are born now and then, even if homosexuals themselves don't reproduce that much: the "gay" genes may be present in a lot of heterosexual people, without they knowing it. Also, gay genes may be recessive, so they can be mantained by getting "masked" in heterozygous individuals. When two alleles get together in a homozygous individual, they get expressed.


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Edited: 05/02/2013 at 01:22 PM by buttheadrulesagain

May 2, 2013 at 6:54:26 PM
cosmicjim (47)

(cosmic jim) < El Ripper >
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Originally posted by: buyatari2

Originally posted by: Br81zad

Originally posted by: buttheadrulesagain

Originally posted by: Br81zad

Dude, Chinaman is not the prefered nomenclature. Asian American, please.

Also, to play devil's advocate, how can you definitively say that the darwinian stance is even more wrong? Might this be a latent population control device to prevent overcrowding? It's no secret that modern medicine has lead to sustained population booms, I sincerely doubt that our progress as a species will be stymied because a small minority elect not to procreate.

"A latent population control device you say? Surely you're joking" - probably what you're thinking

But it's not an unheard of phenomenon in nature for this sort of change to occur. Take the grasshopper for instance. When the population density of grasshoppers grows too high, a chemical in their brain is released triggering physical changes that turn them into locusts. Dont believe me? Read this.
http://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/a-brain-chemical-changes-...

My point is, maybe we have evolved to the point where the need for every human to procreate is not so vital to our survival anymore. It could be part of our evolution.

Our brain is much more complex than a grasshoppers, I know this. But couldn't something along these lines be a possibility?

Biological Evolution doesn't work that way. All that matters for evolution is that the trait selected for gives an advantage for reproduction, so the gene(s) related to that trait will have more copies in the next generation.
 

So I guess the real question is what causes certain individuals to be attracted to the same sex? Is it a trait? An abnormality in the brain itself?  It's not a choice, I think that much has been discovered.

And as you called it, maladaptive. Is it far fetched to see maladaptive traits perpetuate given that we have moved past fighting for survival? I'm genuinely curious. I'm a mechanical engineer with zero bio background, lol

I'm not so sure it is one thing across the board. We really haven't been able to nail down many behavior in humans to a single cause no matter how much we have tried.

It is possible that in one case a man was born leaning this way and still possible that a woman somewhere else was screwed over one too many times by men, hates men now.
 

I have 2 topics to discuss.

#1 - More babies doesn't equal better survival. It's more complicated than that.  It is to the advantage of a virus to reproduce more slowly.  If it kills it's host too quickly by "making babies too fast", the virus itself dies out faster. If it becomes apparent that the host is affected too quickly because the virus "made babies too fast," other victims will avoid the host and the virus dies out.   Weaker virii proliferate better than strong ones.  The reason we don't have as many terrible plagues isn't completely from modern medicine.  These strains wipe themselves out by being too effective.  When these weaknesses are observed in humans it is immediately thrown out as "maladaptive."

#2 - The physiology of people:  When looking at sexuality, people tend to completely seperate men and women.  This is the wrong thing to do.   A man and a woman are obviously different, but inherent who they "are" from their parents.  Women have offspring and can have multiple offspring.   If a person's sexuality causes them to seek sex more than others, they can make up for any people with a lack of sex drive.  (This just lead me to realize that celebacy is even more unnatural  than homosexuality and therefore should be legislated against) Now, let's look at a family unit that has 3 children.  Let's say there are 2 brothers and 1 sister.  Now, let's say they inherited a trait that causes all of them to love dick.  As long as the woman has 3 or more children because of her increased love of dick, the trait of loving d...the trait of being attracted sexually to males is still helping the species proliferate.  This is why being gay doesn't lead to a dead end.  The same that makes you "gay" might make your opposite sex sibling or relative have enough babies to more than make up for you.


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May 2, 2013 at 9:51:05 PM
ZachAttack (1)
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Rosa Parks? So what! A black woman sat in a different seat on the bus....why is this newsworthy? Who cares where she sits!

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May 3, 2013 at 1:10:46 AM
buttheadrulesagain (20)
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(Jorge Juarez) < King Solomon >
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Originally posted by: cosmicjim

I have 2 topics to discuss.

#1 - More babies doesn't equal better survival. It's more complicated than that.  It is to the advantage of a virus to reproduce more slowly.  If it kills it's host too quickly by "making babies too fast", the virus itself dies out faster. If it becomes apparent that the host is affected too quickly because the virus "made babies too fast," other victims will avoid the host and the virus dies out.   Weaker virii proliferate better than strong ones.  The reason we don't have as many terrible plagues isn't completely from modern medicine.  These strains wipe themselves out by being too effective.  When these weaknesses are observed in humans it is immediately thrown out as "maladaptive."

I don't know much about virus evolution and biology. You are right in that it's more complicated than just "make more babies", though you have to think in a more gene-centered way, and not at the individual or group level. The evolution section of the "virulence" article in Wikipedia has very interesting information. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virulence

Survival of the individual means nothing for evolution, if it doesn't mean leaving more copies of the gene (which is achieved by having more babies/make your few babies survive better). The value of a strategy for leaving more babies depends many times on its relative frequency, with respect to existing alternate strategies, and an equilibrium may be reached. There may also be an optimum unique strategy that can be reached (like the level of virulence of some virus strain).

#2 - The physiology of people:  When looking at sexuality, people tend to completely seperate men and women.  This is the wrong thing to do.   A man and a woman are obviously different, but inherent who they "are" from their parents.  Women have offspring and can have multiple offspring.   If a person's sexuality causes them to seek sex more than others, they can make up for any people with a lack of sex drive.  (This just lead me to realize that celebacy is even more unnatural  than homosexuality and therefore should be legislated against) Now, let's look at a family unit that has 3 children.  Let's say there are 2 brothers and 1 sister.  Now, let's say they inherited a trait that causes all of them to love dick.  As long as the woman has 3 or more children because of her increased love of dick, the trait of loving d...the trait of being attracted sexually to males is still helping the species proliferate.  This is why being gay doesn't lead to a dead end.  The same that makes you "gay" might make your opposite sex sibling or relative have enough babies to more than make up for you.

I don't think there's evidence for your hypothesis, though it sounds interesting. It may have theoretical problems though, if the amount of potential offspring through males is higher than the potential offspring through females (one man can have many more babies with different women, than one woman can). Even if the girl is very promiscuous, she can't have that many babies. It'd be more advantageous if the girl was a lesbian, and the men more promiscuous. But if that happened, you'd alter the 1:1 ratio, which is shown mathematically, to be the optimal ratio (any deviation from it is less effective).




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May 3, 2013 at 6:32:04 AM
cosmicjim (47)

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Originally posted by: buttheadrulesagain


I don't think there's evidence for your hypothesis, though it sounds interesting. It may have theoretical problems though, if the amount of potential offspring through males is higher than the potential offspring through females (one man can have many more babies with different women, than one woman can). Even if the girl is very promiscuous, she can't have that many babies. It'd be more advantageous if the girl was a lesbian, and the men more promiscuous. But if that happened, you'd alter the 1:1 ratio, which is shown mathematically, to be the optimal ratio (any deviation from it is less effective).


 

A male can make babies 24/7 for a window 60+ years.  If we look at a cousin like gorillas we already see 1 male spreading offspring to 20+ females in their pack. Is this a process of natural evolution we are moving toward or away from? 

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May 3, 2013 at 10:51:15 AM
buttheadrulesagain (20)
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(Jorge Juarez) < King Solomon >
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Originally posted by: cosmicjim

Originally posted by: buttheadrulesagain


I don't think there's evidence for your hypothesis, though it sounds interesting. It may have theoretical problems though, if the amount of potential offspring through males is higher than the potential offspring through females (one man can have many more babies with different women, than one woman can). Even if the girl is very promiscuous, she can't have that many babies. It'd be more advantageous if the girl was a lesbian, and the men more promiscuous. But if that happened, you'd alter the 1:1 ratio, which is shown mathematically, to be the optimal ratio (any deviation from it is less effective).


 

A male can make babies 24/7 for a window 60+ years.  If we look at a cousin like gorillas we already see 1 male spreading offspring to 20+ females in their pack. Is this a process of natural evolution we are moving toward or away from? 

I don't think so, and there's no evidence for that.



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May 3, 2013 at 11:39:58 AM
BigIVIO (26)
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Originally posted by: cosmicjim

Originally posted by: buttheadrulesagain


I don't think there's evidence for your hypothesis, though it sounds interesting. It may have theoretical problems though, if the amount of potential offspring through males is higher than the potential offspring through females (one man can have many more babies with different women, than one woman can). Even if the girl is very promiscuous, she can't have that many babies. It'd be more advantageous if the girl was a lesbian, and the men more promiscuous. But if that happened, you'd alter the 1:1 ratio, which is shown mathematically, to be the optimal ratio (any deviation from it is less effective).


 

A male can make babies 24/7 for a window 60+ years.  If we look at a cousin like gorillas we already see 1 male spreading offspring to 20+ females in their pack. Is this a process of natural evolution we are moving toward or away from? 

I'm not really sure if this is still in reference to homosexuals (I stopped reading after the first page), but it should be noted that gorillas as well basically every other species of mammal or otherwise on this planet occassionally engage in homosexual activies (please refernces your own dog if you don't believe me) and in some species they have homosexual partners. I had to take a ton of anthropology courses and we studied homosexuality in animals one semester. If you've never heard of a Bonobo you should check those guys out. 


May 3, 2013 at 1:30:43 PM
buyatari2 (30)

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Originally posted by: BigIVIO

Originally posted by: cosmicjim

Originally posted by: buttheadrulesagain


I don't think there's evidence for your hypothesis, though it sounds interesting. It may have theoretical problems though, if the amount of potential offspring through males is higher than the potential offspring through females (one man can have many more babies with different women, than one woman can). Even if the girl is very promiscuous, she can't have that many babies. It'd be more advantageous if the girl was a lesbian, and the men more promiscuous. But if that happened, you'd alter the 1:1 ratio, which is shown mathematically, to be the optimal ratio (any deviation from it is less effective).


 

A male can make babies 24/7 for a window 60+ years.  If we look at a cousin like gorillas we already see 1 male spreading offspring to 20+ females in their pack. Is this a process of natural evolution we are moving toward or away from? 

I'm not really sure if this is still in reference to homosexuals (I stopped reading after the first page), but it should be noted that gorillas as well basically every other species of mammal or otherwise on this planet occassionally engage in homosexual activies (please refernces your own dog if you don't believe me) and in some species they have homosexual partners. I had to take a ton of anthropology courses and we studied homosexuality in animals one semester. If you've never heard of a Bonobo you should check those guys out. 
 


Engaging in homosexual behavior and having no attraction to the opposite sex are different things. An animal that has sex with everything that moves will still reproduce even if half the sperm he drops will never see an egg. 

May 5, 2013 at 12:50:12 AM
rhetoric614 (51)
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(rhetoric 614) < Lolo Lord >
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I'm not anti-black I just believe in a traditional workplace

May 5, 2013 at 2:23:30 AM
rhetoric614 (51)
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I'm not anti-christian I just believe in traditional crosses.

May 5, 2013 at 2:55:37 AM
Firebrandx (7)
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For those wondering about gray areas like trannys, I'll quote what I heard a warcraft friend say in vent:

"It isn't gay if it isn't in you".

(I spit my drink out laughing when he said it)

Sep 21, 2013 at 6:13:22 PM
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thenickross (134)
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Mmmmmmm pretzels.

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