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Homebrew Why is SNES homebrew not as popular as NES homebrew?

Jun 2, 2016 at 6:07:36 PM
Final Theory (2)

(Final Theory) < Crack Trooper >
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Sure the homebrew scene is lacking on snes, but in terms of game hacks, Super Mario World hacking is thriving. It has one of the best game editors out there and the smw community has hundreds of custom blocks, sprites and patches that anyone can use in their game. If you want to make a platforming snes game, in my opinion use smw as a base to make your game off of.


Edited: 06/02/2016 at 06:10 PM by Final Theory

Jun 2, 2016 at 6:50:20 PM
Kosmic StarDust (44)
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(Alita Jean) < Master Higgins >
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I think the sentiments said by others can be summed up by stating the less complex the system, the more homebrew apps will be written for it.

Atari homebrew has been out for much longer and there is many more games released for it, although the amount of NES homebrew has increased by leaps and bounds since I got deeply involved with the community a few years ago.

Most of the SNES homebrew titles I have seen (ie Classic Kong, et al) looked like games that would be very doable on the NES, just with simplified sprite art. Even 16-bit Xmas 2012 was ported from an NES title mostly unchanged, although the audio was broken on it.

Now look at the scene with N64. Virtually non-existent, and most hacks, including virtually all Mario 64 hacks created with Toad's Tool, are completely broken when played on a real N64 via an Everdrive. This was due to the expanded ROM using odd indexed addresses which the N64 CPU could not read from. Nobody seemed to have written any homebrew for it besides Krikzz Everdrive menu itself and the bundled NES emulator (yes, you can play NES ROMs on an Everedrive 64). This is not counting the numerous tech demos released back in the day (Nacho64 is pretty cool), which were designed on real dev kits and dumped from real dev carts.

So when will the first N64 homebrew game come out? A few SNES and Genesis brews came out of the woodworks, but nobody seemed to show any love for the beloved MIPS CPU...  

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~From the Nintendo/Atari addict formerly known as StarDust4Ever...


Edited: 06/02/2016 at 06:52 PM by Kosmic StarDust

Jun 2, 2016 at 7:30:36 PM
bunnyboy (81)
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(Funktastic B) < Master Higgins >
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Originally posted by: Final Theory

Sure the homebrew scene is lacking on snes, but in terms of game hacks, Super Mario World hacking is thriving. It has one of the best game editors out there and the smw community has hundreds of custom blocks, sprites and patches that anyone can use in their game.
Maybe some of those people would otherwise be doing homebrew, or writing homebrew tools?
 
Originally posted by: Final Theory

If you want to make a platforming snes game, in my opinion use smw as a base to make your game off of.
Then its no longer homebrew, its a hack   

Jun 2, 2016 at 7:34:35 PM
Shiru (0)

(Shiru Shiru) < Meka Chicken >
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I personally interested in getting momentum for N64 dev, but this platform is really challenging if you want to go clean (i.e. without unlicensed microcode). MIPS CPU is not a big problem, the microcode thing is.

N64 got some love on the demoscene, though, since 1999, and to the modern times -

. But demoscene is a bit different story.

Jun 3, 2016 at 2:39:22 PM
Ramsis (0)
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< Tourian Tourist >
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OK, one last try before I'll get banned for good anyway (which is totally fine) ... 
 
Originally posted by: bunnyboy

You are clearly one of the top SNES programmers
No, sorry. Honored as though I am about your assessment, I'm still at least as far away from the top of the field SNES guys as Northern hemisphere summer is from Chinese New Year.  
 
Originally posted by: bunnyboy

and the firmware work is amazing
Wow. Wow, really!!   Thank you so much for your very first personal appreciative statement about my work (of which I'd told you from day #1) in close to four years of ongoing development. Thanks!  
 
Originally posted by: bunnyboy

but it does nothing to help make SNES programming accessible to future homebrewers.
I see your point, but I don't agree.

I've learned all I now know about SNES programming from hardly any tutorials but from literally staring at other people's code -- yours got me started, as a matter of fact! --, and from 65816 programming / SNES PPU register docs. On the other hand, when coding new stuff, I've always tried to comment it in a way so that people interested in learning SNES stuff would be able to benefit from it. Yes, by now I'm aware myself that most (?) people won't get started into SNES programming the way I did (i.e., by actually downloading code samples and trying to learn from them).

Still, considering how I thought my code structuring and commenting would be somehow meaningful, I can't help feeling kicked in the teeth when I read stuff like has been posted in this thread. Yes, it hurts me, and yes, it angers me. Hence me (maybe over-)reacting. Sorry if any of you felt offended.
 
Originally posted by: KHAN Games

He is 90% sarcastic in everything he says.
Fine. Has he ever considered marking sarcastic comments of his as such (like I did in my first post of this thread)? (Rhetorical question, as I think I know the answer already ...)
 
Originally posted by: KHAN Games

And to bash his product and then rant you're never going to buy from him again is pretty childish, honestly. If it's completely broken, as you claim, why not post what is wrong with it and offer suggestions on how to fix it?
I could ask you to please stop insulting my intelligence, but instead I'll gladly direct your attention to this thread, which clearly proves that I'm exactly the opposite of what you want to make me look like. Nice try though, especially for a forum moderator. Can't help but hope you ... oh, f*** it.  

Kudos to @cirellio, @SoleGooseProductions, and @GradualGames for the overall heads-up.  

And Godspeed to you all ...

Jun 3, 2016 at 10:21:10 PM
Kosmic StarDust (44)
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(Alita Jean) < Master Higgins >
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Originally posted by: Ramsis

OK, one last try before I'll get banned for good anyway (which is totally fine) ... 

[...]

And Godspeed to you all ...

Please don't go. You seem like an intelligent guy. I don't know you but any loss of talent based on a ban over some petty words or feuding would be a shame. Let's all just get along, 'kay?  

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~From the Nintendo/Atari addict formerly known as StarDust4Ever...


Edited: 06/03/2016 at 10:21 PM by Kosmic StarDust

Jun 4, 2016 at 10:41:59 AM
Aaendi (0)

(Andy Koenigs) < Eggplant Wizard >
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Most NES games can be easily converted to the SNES. You just need to change a couple addresses in the vblank code.

Jun 4, 2016 at 7:19:51 PM
Aaendi (0)

(Andy Koenigs) < Eggplant Wizard >
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Something that has always bugged me about the SNES is how little developers did any kind of graphical trickery compared to other systems. Where are the multijointed bosses and HDMA effects?

Jun 4, 2016 at 7:35:48 PM
Kosmic StarDust (44)
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(Alita Jean) < Master Higgins >
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Originally posted by: Aaendi

Something that has always bugged me about the SNES is how little developers did any kind of graphical trickery compared to other systems. Where are the multijointed bosses and HDMA effects?
SNES had Mode 7. That's pretty fancy "trickery" for a 16-bit console!  
 

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~From the Nintendo/Atari addict formerly known as StarDust4Ever...

Jun 4, 2016 at 8:09:47 PM
Aaendi (0)

(Andy Koenigs) < Eggplant Wizard >
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Even that could've had better use. They could've did waves and trenches and stuff. Or for a mode 7 bosses fight, they could do a giant chomping robot monster with the top and bottom jaw rotating, with a sprite connecting the two.

Jun 5, 2016 at 10:03:47 AM
GradualGames (39)
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(Derek Andrews) < El Ripper >
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Aaendi: That's where you come in my friend!

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Creators of: Nomolos: Storming the CATsle, and The Legends of Owlia.

Jun 7, 2016 at 2:49:24 PM
Aaendi (0)

(Andy Koenigs) < Eggplant Wizard >
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Originally posted by: bunnyboy
 
Originally posted by: Ramsis

Funny how all you die-hard NES fanboys out there are in constant need of bashing the SNES (or whatever other console you might have it in for). Honestly, it's hilarious.  

For the record, I myself am a die-hard SNES fanboy. Still, I've never felt the urge to have a go at any other consoles. And why on Earth would I? I'm glad they exist. All of them. I've enjoyed playing games on them in the past. I have no reason to talk shit about any one of them. Not even for the purpose of teasing. (Maybe that's because I didn't get that whole '90s Console Wars thing in the first place, i.e. back in 1992). And you know what: I'm goddamn glad that I never ever have since then. Because the only thing it ever did was make pros look like idiots all along (if you don't know what I'm talking about, then you've missed the '90s European video game magazines).

@bunnyboy, I'm shaking my maned head, seriously. You're a pro, right? So instead of unintentionally coming across like an idiot ... why not contribute some pro stuff to this thread? Just sayin'.  

Its the running joke, I say everything but NES sux.  But mostly sega because sega super sux!  I never cared about the console wars, and don't care about it now.  It is in no way serious bashing.  Only feeble minds would be influenced by it.

Some of these might be out of date, its been years since I looked at any SNES dev.  I won't do more because (in no particular order):

1 - No nostalgia.  By then I had moved onto computers.
2 - APU complexity.  Audio is already a problem for me, and needing to learn another processor just to do it is an immediate rejection.  Even making simple beeps is complex.  One of my NES games has all the audio in ~12 instructions which isn't possible on SNES.
3 - Similar to audio, the graphics level needed is far beyond my skills.  Limited graphics is ok on NES, not on SNES.
4 - Smaller market for cart sales.  Like Derek said the motivation shouldn't just be money, but see #1.
5 - PPU complexity.  I can completely understand all the registers/timing/mode/edge cases (bugs) for NES, but can't for SNES.  
6 - Bad tutorials.  SNES ones are mostly big blocks of code, or only cover a small section.  
7 - Bad debuggers.  Whatever bsnes was called at the time was a huge mess, snes9xdebug was missing important features.
8 - Bad audio tools.  I can't point a musician towards a famitracker type tool.
9 - Bad graphics tools.  I can't point an artist towards a nesst type tool.
10 - Variability of hardware revisions.  I already got hit by this.
11 - #snesdev is dead.
12 - Placeholder for things I haven't thought of.

SNES dev needs a LOT of work by the "pros" to make it widely accessible.  Unfortunately that work is not SNES programming, so nobody wants to do it.  NES tools/tutorials/support from 10-15 years ago are far beyond where SNES is now.  If I was going to do a higher level system, the availability of tools and personal interest would make me look at GBA.  
Which ones?  I thought people complained about the lack of example codes.  Now it's too much?

 

Jun 12, 2016 at 3:07:21 PM
AlveinHero (0)
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(Roko Yuki Hime) < Eggplant Wizard >
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uh, maybe we should make some games for Super Nintendo.

Jun 12, 2016 at 11:20:39 PM
Kosmic StarDust (44)
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(Alita Jean) < Master Higgins >
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Originally posted by: AlveinHero

uh, maybe we should make some games for Super Nintendo.
This!!! Easier said then done though...  

 

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~From the Nintendo/Atari addict formerly known as StarDust4Ever...

Jun 12, 2016 at 11:52:36 PM
Holy_Ostrich (26)
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You guys forgot to mention that game that Watermelon has in the works that's a brand new SNES game. I've been a supporter over there ever since Pier Solar so that was an instant support for me.

Maybe if there was a like-minded group of guys out there similar to Watermelon that did a kick-starter or indiegogo for a brand new Super Nintendo game... they may be surprised with the amount of $ tossed at them.

Jun 13, 2016 at 12:16:16 AM
Shiru (0)

(Shiru Shiru) < Meka Chicken >
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Too bad that not any problem can be solved by just throwing in some amount of $, and too bad that often these $ get thrown into things that not really helping a project, like renting a house or office.

Also, I'd say that WM is a bad role model. The way they're handling that project totally feels like a vapourware.

Jun 13, 2016 at 8:19:42 PM
AlveinHero (0)
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(Roko Yuki Hime) < Eggplant Wizard >
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There is a new game on the Super Nintendo. Super Boss Gaiden.



Edited: 06/13/2016 at 08:20 PM by AlveinHero

Jun 14, 2016 at 1:46:48 AM
Kosmic StarDust (44)
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(Alita Jean) < Master Higgins >
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Did they just rip a bunch of super tough bosses from a bunch of games and string them together? Cause that would suck! I hate boss fights...  

Be kinda fun to watch a speedrun of such a thing however.  

EDIT: There was a thread related to it on SNESfreaks.com but appears to be deleted.  
http://www.snesfreaks.com/forum/v...

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~From the Nintendo/Atari addict formerly known as StarDust4Ever...


Edited: 06/14/2016 at 01:56 AM by Kosmic StarDust

Jun 14, 2016 at 2:40:35 PM
Aaendi (0)

(Andy Koenigs) < Eggplant Wizard >
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One big problem is not knowing before hand what the correct or best way to do something, so you don't end up having to rewrite code. I'm worrying that maybe I should've went with 8x8 and 16x16 sprites instead of 16x16 and 32x32 sprites, in order to prevent flicking, DMA speed, and VRAM. Just as long as I don't do something as ridiculous as not using more than 16 8x8 cells per enemy sprite, like I did with the Gunstar Heroes project.