Only to return to make a thread such as this. You asked for it, you got it.

PART I: Let's get some shit straight.

I'm not going to bullshit myself into thinking that this should be happyworld where everyone is going to trade each other fairly and not sell games to each other in a way that will sell themselves short. World doesn't work that way.

Caveats:
Money makes the world go round.
Making money is not evil.
This is the world today and capitalism is large and in charge.
Profit is as good a motivation as any these days.
People will take advantage of each other any which way they can.
There is always a reason anyone does anything. Always.

All this considered, let's move on.

PART II: What is the VGA and why should you be completely against it?

VGA is to Games as a Bathroom Attendant is to Restaurants. Both are completely unnecessary, add imaginary value to what already has value and let's be honest, it gets a little weird to have someone you don't know look over your shoulder while you take a leak, or in the case of games, it's a little weird to have someone who you don't know and don't have any reason to trust, takes your games, reseal them with the promise of "enhanced value" because of it.

Who are the VGA? Does anyone really know? The VGA was grown out of the CGA, the Collectible Grading Authority, a service for other collectible items, that has existed for at least the past 10 years. Seeing an opportunity to take on an entirely new market, they set their sights on videogames. Clearly, the CGA was not formed around games. This isn't someone known in the community coming to build up a service for other collectors, this is an existing service looking to expand their service to game collectors and to make money. This is a business looking to make money off of you with the promise that you'll make money yourself, so the model self-perpetuates and resistance to it becomes harder and harder. Also, by having your game graded, it becomes a self perpetuating model as you become an advertisement for them with each game you slab.

The promise of better protection, a definitive benchmark by grade and a certification are other advantages you get from VGA. But do you?

What authority does VGA have over anyone here to rate these games? Can anyone prove that it's just not arbitrary? I have yet to see anyone predict their rating with any accuracy. What makes the difference between a 85 and a 85+? And have they ever declined a game for being a fake seal? What of the conspiracy theory that they open your game up and take the game out or have knowingly or unknowingly graded reseals? There is no proven legitimacy to these  concepts because they have you in a position where you will never be able to analyze what you have before you. It's a perfect stalemate.

You send a game in to be graded. They grade it. You will never open the case (you lose your money and time). You will never resubmit it to them to be regraded (you lose even more time and money). You will never open the sealed game (you lose even more money). If you are submitting the games to be graded, you are doing it out of concern for value of some sort: maintaining condition and therefore maintaining value, or increasing value. Point being, you won't dilute your overall value doing any of those things (If anyone has done such a thing as above, I'd love to here about it.). Do you really want to buy into something that has so many open ends?

Let's cover "enhanced value". Let's look at this breakdown this forum's own robin made recently:


That's a lot to put out for the enhanced value of VGA. So who wins in the end? Always the VGA. It's important to know that no matter what happens with the value of your games, VGA gets its money. If the seller robin mentions doesn't sell enough games to cover that expense, he's losing out. Yes, some of it is his fault for buying into it - it's his choice. But why subject yourself when the game itself will get you the money for half the work?

To summarize, my points of why you should not be involved with the VGA:

- Entered into the game collecting world as a business, not as a collector.
- Operates similar to a self perpetuating model that alienates those who do not use their service.
- No objective proof in methodology and certification.
- Stalemate model protects VGA, not you.
- Weak "value enhancement".

PART III: What about the supporters of VGA?

What should you make of the supporters of VGA? They can be broken down into two categories: profiteer and curator. The curator end of it is pretty clear cut - they see VGA as a method to protect their games.

While they may sell in the future, they won't turn a game around for sale instantly. As a game collector, the inevitability is that you will one day sell your games. You will likely sell them at a profit. It's just the way things go. If and how you protect your games is the issue. Non-sealed collectors have their box protectors, sealed collectors have their slabs. Fine. It's your money to protect your games as you see fit, but I reference part II of this post for you and say: be wary and is $40 a game really that smart of a move to protect a single game?

The ones you have to look out for are the profiteers. This is also clear-cut. Those who slab games only to sell them on eBay and other avenues for profit. While there is nothing wrong with doing this, dealing with these people, you have to remember that they are akin to VGA in their goal: make money off of you. While profiting is well and good, profiting off you is something that you should avoid. Please don't interact with these people. You are more than welcome to find a copy of Super Mario Galaxy in stores and send it off to VGA. You can find a sealed copy of the game they have and slab it yourself.

Paying a fantastic upcharge does not make any sense when the resources and tools are at your disposal already if you really want them. Don't be a sucker. Don't fall for the grading numbers that seek to entice you. Be smarter than that. Look at the above and tell me you are placing your resources in the right place.

Part IV: Motivation & Conclusion

It's important to know where I stand. I'm a large proponent of keeping things where they are now. It lets the hobby be more accessible for those new and that they may be able to experience the fun that I did when I collected NES. I know that game collecting will eventually move into more advanced stages, approaching more defined stages of evolution akin to comic books and things will change. But the longer things stay as they are, the better. And I find VGA as a force that moves it away from that because it acts as a business force and creates profiteers, both of which moves it closer to comic books. While not an evil thing, the better situation in my opinion, is how we have it now.

So I say all this and what can you do or what can be done? The hard truth is VGA has taken hold of the sealed collecting gig and there is nothing we can do to resist it. Looks like sealed collectors are pretty much screwed since it's unlikely those who are already assimilated to the VGA mindset won't break the stalemate and those looking to get in won't be able to avoid it. Sorry! Should have fought the fight earlier on.

As I said earlier, there is a divide between sealed and non-sealed collectors. If you take anything away from this, it's that when VGA eventually opens up to CIB/loose cart grading, you say FUCK NO.

EDITED 3/1/10 7pm EST: Edited to remove pyramid scheme analogy.

If you take anything away from this, it's that when VGA eventually opens up to CIB/loose cart grading, you say FUCK NO.

CIB's are already being done and eventually carts are going to be done here very,very soon.

Interesting points. I've always been "against" VGA in the sense that I would never get a game graded. But I don't really have an issue with people getting their own games graded. People can spend their money however they want. Even if it does affect me (by messing up the community, etc...) I can't stop people from doing what they want to do.

Your points in Part II is where I agree with you the most.

Technically, only NIB games are being graded, not CIB.

What is the logistics behind determining whether or not an open game is NIB or CIB?

Also, If I say VGA is great in this thread, would that be considered thread crapping?

Technically no!!!! The game has been taken out of its box on more then one occasion,so its not new,but good try!! 

I think portnoyd made the best point at the end: grading of non-sealed games will eventually happen. And it will drive up prices.

I don't even know why I care, except that at some point I may desire to go after a full SNES set. I stopped collecting as soon as lost my high paying job. I guess I might be just as obsessive compulsive as the collectors who feel the need to mail in their games to some faceless company to get a mark to the quality of shrinkwrap seal.

Grading is the single dumbest thing I've ever seen in this hobby. I seriously can't believe people actually do things like this.

--Zero

This really should have been submitted as an ezine article. Regardless of whether people agree or disagree with what you've said, it was extremely well written.

well i guess you cant fault the guy that puts your game in a plastic case and slaps a number on it for 25 dollars or so.  4 games graded is a nice pay check

I like this article, and I do agree with you.

If people want to spend their money to do this, then let them I guess. I'm not big on the whole grading thing either though. Take a $50 sealed game, send it in, get an 85 grade on it, then pop it back on ebay for $200. The real problem I have is that it's taking games that are not worth that much and making them go up in price all because of a plastic case with a number on it. Yeah, it might be gem mint, but if it was, I'm pretty sure you could tell without the plastic case and grade. And probably get it a few hundred dollars less at that.

I'm with you Port. Well said.

  OK I'm probably not the best person to argue with you because I am truly a moron, but I reeeeaally dont want to do my homework so here goes.
    Let me preface this by saying I am a new collector and mostly collect sealed PS2 with a little NES and GB (both sealed)

1st of all there is one thing I see VGA accused of over and over:

"What authority does VGA have over anyone here to rate these games? Can anyone prove that it's just not arbitrary? I have yet to see anyone predict their rating with any accuracy. What makes the difference between a 85 and a 85+?"

       From what I understand, VGA has a lot of experience grading toys.  Nearly a decade I believe.  All that experience grading toys probably transfers over to sealed games.  I happen to (kinda) know the "scale", give or take, about what flaws are graded down, and in what order.  For instance did you know that a corner pin-hole can have a different downgrade depending on which corner it is on? 
    Now maybe they don't advertise how they grade exactly (understandably).... but there is a method to it, and to say they just grab a number out of thin air (not you, but others) is a little silly.  It isn't 100% accurate, and maybe you don't want to catch a grader on a bad day, but I'm sure comics are the same.

    To answer your question about 85-85+ I might guess (beginner remember) a game with 2 tiny pin holes in corners might be a 85+ and one with a couple pin holes and minor scuffing on the front might be a 85.

      Secondly, as a sealed collector, it is terrible to get a game with flaws that were not mentioned and/or too small to notice in the pics.  If I had more money I would much rather just get VGA golds than this hope and see approach I've been doing.  Maybe VGA has missed 1 in a thousand as far as reseals, but those are much better odds.  I can totally understand someone not wanting the headache of a game damaged.  Wouldn't you rather trust a company that has a reason to tell you the truth, than a seller that has a reason to mislead?  One man's mint is another man's garbage.  VGA takes out the guessing, and protects it. 
      Remember that for the most part, sealed collectors are wicked particular.
       If I see a 90 Rockin' Katz for instance, I would much rather pay an extra 60 (even though its half that to grade) for a graded copy than buy a '90 looking' sealed game and cross my fingers that it comes as nice as it looks.  I can be confident about exactly what I'm getting, and that load off is worth something to me.

      I can't mention names, but there are a lot of collectors here that use VGA a lot, they don't speak up normally because of the hatred, but people that keep coming to them year after year without complaining aren't idiots.... they probably want me to shut up, but (shrug) do my homework then.
     I'm curious how many real sealed collectors are in this hatred boat.  Not the guy who buys a dented Castlevania from Dov, but the people with black box stuff.  VGA games look amazing, and if we are talking about something worth more than a couple hundie, then it's a drop in the bucket to protect them forever.
      Maybe because I am new, I don't have the nostalgia of times before VGA, but with prices so high on some of this stuff, wasn't it inevitable?  It's a rich man's niche, and (many) rich people want to save time (after all money is replacable, time is not).  I will sell all my VGA stuff if the price is high enough, and I will completely understand why they payed the high premium.  I took the risk sending them there, paid in worry, anticipation, all of that.  Buyers aren't neccesarily stupid because they spend mulitple times more than a non-graded copy, they just have different priorities.
     Maybe I should just send you one Port and you can tell me it doesn't excite you to gaze at it.

   And one more thing you are wrong about:  "There is always a reason anyone does anything. Always."

    Maybe for geniuses like you who know big words like "pyramid" and "submitting", but hang with some real morons for a week.... you'll see some reasonless action I promise you.

Hey I mostly liked it better before too but the one gaping hole in Part 3 is that in my experience most people who buy vga graded games are neither profiteers nor curators.    They are collectors who want a mint copy of something without having to buy 8 frickin copies of it before finding one they are really happy with.    It IS nice to be able to see a number on a label and know automatically what kind of condition you're getting.    Is it worth the price differential?   Most people will say no (myself I'm not sure how I feel about it) but there is some value there for sure.   As to how much... everyone will evaluate that differently.     But having bought/sold a good amount of vga graded stuff I just don't think the profiteer/curator thing is true.    Most vga game collectors both buy and sell so the higher prices cut both ways.   Yeah you get more for that one you sold but you need to shell out more for that one you want to buy.

aw man... you beat me to my main point!   Touche sir robin

Good post portnoyd.  You didn't really elaborate on the fact that it is just assumed that the VGA is an all-knowing entity when it comes to how every single game was factory sealed.  This is a huge concern, not only for me who clearly hates the VGA, but for those who love it too.  While Nintendo may have had pretty standard sealing practices, do we really know how every game was sealed?  Even if they all were sealed the same way, considering the amount of money some people are putting into sealed games and more recently getting them graded, I don't think faking seals with shrinkwrap worth fractions of cents is going to be too difficult or costly.

This raises major issues because they are slabbing these games as 100% authentic no one is questioning it further.  How long until a resealed game is graded?  I would bet it has already happened.

Anyway, I spent too long on that when the core issue here is a much bigger one: the VGA and people like rarebucky are simply cancer to this community leeching money off of people who love videogames. (you and me)

For those that say, "let people spend their money on this".  Make sure you understand the fact that they are knowingly and intentionally making everything you want more expensive, and [at least trying to] making money in the process.  This is pretty fucked up.

I realize many people like the idea of being able to easily get a mint condition game without taking any risks, I do to.  It's sort of like communism though, in that it's better in theory than practice.  The higher cost isn't worth the benefits of making it a little easier to get a minty game. I would much prefer buying five copies of a game at $50 each in search of a pristine one, than giving $500 to some asshole for one that has a nice condition outer box (and possibly nothing of value inside).

Is the convenience of having games available at a standardized condition really worth the absurd price increase?  Only if you are in this hobby for the money.

Man, read back your post and erase the offending material.
You'll only get problems arguing this way here.

Wow - I usually try and keep to myself regarding my thoughts on VGA because it's a choice - you don't have to use the service if you don't like it. But I don't think it is right to call out members of this community because you don't like the direction this hobby is inevitable moving towards. We all wish games were fifty bucks like the day we bought them off the shelves - but they are not and premiums are part of any hobby. The member you speak of has brought this hobby to another level whether you like the costs of his games or not. And if you actually ever dealt with him, you'd see he's a pretty nice person as well. That's a tacky and uncouth post that is just plain mean.

~Ambir

There is a demand for an authority that specializes in detecting flaws and reseals to be the expert that you need for piece of mind.  If Bronty hadn't written those articles on detecting reseals, I'd probably just be crossing my fingers and 1 burn away from quitting forever.  Most people haven't read those articles and are willing to pay extra for a 99.9% guarantee. 
   I am a good example of a buyer that would wonder "why doesn't this exist for video games?" if it didn't.

Here is the core issue IMO: You are getting this gorgeous virgin game in a perfect custom case for about what it would cost probably to have someone do it specially for games.  It's beautiful, it's now protected, and it's trusted and easier to sell (sort of).  Take out the grade entirely and it still isn't that bad of a deal.

hehe just think if all the sealed collectors collected back when new nintendo games were still on the shelves at wal mart, toys r us, k mart, etc.

I can just picture a bunch of guys digging through copy after copy of the legend of zelda trying to find the mintiest gem of the 20 copies hanging on a metal rod. lol Just to take it 20 years later and get it graded. Just seems so strange to me?

Its a video game not a toy, it dont become a toy until you open it up and "play it". It dont provide much action in a sealed box.

Here's a mental picture>> 2 kids playing with 2 sealed nes games as they bash em against each other. Little tommy has color a dinosaur roar roar!! and little jimmy has metal mech boom boom! Wait kids dont hit the sealed boxes together too hard youll hurt their value and put dents in the boxes. lol, ugh its getting late and im rambling lol,

basically im not a sealed collector and see games as games, not a New in box graded mint on card "Luke in stormtrooper outfit" action figure lol.

But hey to each is own it will always be that way :-)

It

Or, you could just collect CIB games and not worry about the seal. I mean, this is about games right? Things that are fun to play? It's not like you're getting sloppy seconds if it isn't graded 90+ or something.

--Zero

This made me laugh even being a VGA supporter like myself.

Not exactly sir.
An Authentic Sealed video game is attractive to a "collector" because being sealed make it a "collectible-only", and not part-collectible part-toy item.
This is the reason why there's a higher symbolic value given to brand new games than used games. Opened, the item pass a non-reversible step that makes it usable, and not only collectible. It is a sort of poetics of the collection : avoiding the toy to be what he has to be pragmatically (a toy that we can play) gives him a special symbolic value as an item.

Portnoyd, your arguments are based mostly off speculation.

To me you lost credibility when you started mentioning Ponzi schemes, which this has nothing to do with grading games. If they were selling rights to grade games, maybe, but still a stretch. Goods our services are not exchanged in Ponzi schemes, only money.

I have to agree with Robin. The VGA works and makes money because it offers a service that is tangible. Why would anyone pay thousands of dollars to go watch a professional sports game, when you can watch it on TV for free? Isn't that a total Rip-off? Yes and no. To some it is, to some it isn't. Bottom line is you only use the service if you want to, you certainly don't have to. Even if they didn't grade the games and only slabbed them, then it would still be worth something. If the VGA is a bad business, it will be gone in a few years. Time will tell the truth.