Being relatively new to the scene, both retro gaming (I took a 10 or so year break from playing older games) and homebrew (new to them just this year), I've made 3 purchases so far, and they've each been drastically different as far as style is concerned.

By style I mean that one of them was an English translation of Little Ninja Hattori (my first ever physical homebrew game!) which I bought because 1) I was able to snag the #1 copy, and 2) it looked like a fun game. The second game I bought was yours, on Kickstarter, because it looked to have a cool feature (twinsticks). And the third is the Gremlins hack, because I love Gremlins. So my criteria is that a game has to be one of 1) A series I like a lot, 2) a cool new feature, or 3) simply fun looking.

Those are pretty simple and wide requirements for a purchase, but there IS one thing all 3 had in common as well - they each come with a box and manual. I'm honestly not sure that I'd buy a cart-only homebrew game, and I think others probably feel the same way as collectors. If it's something being made new, I want to get the whole "new experience" ya know?

Just for a little clarification, when SGP says "homebrew", he means brand new games that are being programmed.  He is not refering to hacks.  It may seem like semantics, but in the homebrew "scene" it's a VERY important delineation.

No offense meant, just making sure we stay 100% on topic.  

It's great that you are finding neat and interesting things to bring you further into the aftermarket hobby, for sure.
 

Ah, apologies. I thought homebrew was more of a blanket term. The more you know!
 

Apologies if any of the below is not what you were looking for or totally off the mark about what you wanted to discuss. I did read your post, but sometimes it's hard to get full meaning in forum posts, especially with topics like this.

My personal belief is, creators should make what they want, and anybody can buy what they want. If a creator wants to get lots of feedback first to see what will sell, more power to them, if a creator is making a personal labor of love that only sells 50 copies, more power to them too. Sorry if that's not what you were looking for; I'm afraid I'm unable to think more deeply about the subject.

I haven't bought every single homebrew that came out; I've only bought...probably a tiny fraction of what has been released. I just buy what I like. I don't expect people to all have bought my homebrews---I only want people who personally find them appealing to buy them. That's totally and completely fine with me, and I'm not offended if somebody doesn't buy them. I've got plenty of friends in the community whose work I admire who have not bought my games and vice versa. It just plain doesn't matter to me. Money is a means to an end---having a physical cart. That's literally the only reason money means anything at all to me. If it was possible to put games on physical cartridges for free, and ship them for free, with no money at all involved, I'd be just as happy.

As for market rising and falling, I would be just as happy selling 6 copies as 600.

I'd also add, I don't think any conscious effort should be expended on shaping the homebrew community. It's just going to be what it's going to be, the market will be where it is going to be. Nobody can possibly predict or influence that (except by accident, by being who they are and offering what they have to offer). It's too niche and too tiny and life is too volatile to get a handle on something like that.

That's basically the only emotion I want to ever experience in this hobby: Happiness. I wouldn't want it to be any other way. Any time anything even remotely smacks of changing that situation for me, I avoid it at all costs. The rest of life is hard enough as it is without making a precious hobby about nostalgia about anxiety and frustration.

I typically only buy polished homebrew games and games that feel familiar in theme to some of my all time favorite classics. Homebrew's are typically costly so if I am going to lay the money down, it has to not only look good but it has to be a solid game. An some of the friendly publishers here on Nintendo Age tend to offer such high quality games. I've picked up a few decent titles from Kickstarters too.

I feel like this year's homebrews are some of the best ever, and only getting better. But there's a downside to that. Lot's of great games, but not much money. I've heard lots of developers talk about weak sales...and I think 'saturation' is part of that... too many good games for buyers to get them all.

Personally, if I was only interested in money, I would be cranking out crappy Android apps. Really, I always wanted to design an NES game, and I did. Dream come true. Couldn't be happier.

dougeff nailed it. This is why I will try to always have copies of my games for sale until I give this up. I know not everyone has a dime to drop on release day. With new parts available, it's pretty simple to keep a small stock of cart only so when the funds are available, they buyer can purchase. Not sure I will produce more boxes and manuals if I run out as that is costly in small batches.

I don't think many people get into the retro sceene to make money.. maybe re-sellers but those who bother to learn the code and spend loads of hours making their own games from scratch do it for the love of the craft and retro-gaming.

There are more great homebrews available for purchase then ever before, which makes it hard for the consumer to keep up with. I've also noticed that many homebrews sell for more then they would have in the past.

When I'm buying a homebrew I have to be very selective, a $60 game equals $80+ Canadian, then add the cost of shipping. Your standard homebrew these days cost nearly $100. For a gamer and/or collector on any kinda budget homebrews can be very expensive, especially if you are collecting and playing other games. I could buy a modern game like BOTW or a stack of Wii,PS2,etc games for less. In the past I've been able to purchase cart and manual homebrew for under $40, it seems like many homebrews have become flashier with LE's, SE's, CIB's, Kickstarters,etc. Which don't accommodate so much to the consumer who just wants to play a homebrew on a cart. It's also nice when many different homebrews can be purchased in the same place.

This can be pretty limiting for me as well, and has certainly made me more picky with my purchases lately. The Canadian dollar is hella shit, and it's no good. A homebrew CIB is usually over $100 for us.

I agree with this 110%

For me, the whole reason I got into NES homebrews was because I thought it was cool that you could make your own Nintendo games.  This was my dream as a kid, and it was finally coming true.  I was into homebrews before Garage Cart was made, so for me it was always about just playing them on an emulator.

My stance hasn't really changed in that respect. However now we have flash cartridges so that makes it so much better than emulation.  Mainly for financial reasons, I never buy the "extra" stuff (boxes, LEs, etc).  Like ne$_pimp said, by the time shipping is involved it usually costs us Canadians $100 for a CIB release.  Obviously I have bought some, but these were all projects that I was really close to or involved in some way.

If you look back a few years on MRNs youtube channel (MRN Bricks) you might find a rant (maybe he deleted it, I couldn't find it) about the prices of homebrews.  There are very economical ways to release small physical runs of games but usually this requires donors.  Now there are really economical boards designed specifically for homebrews (cheapocabra) so I'm hoping this can drive the prices down a bit. The thing is, while some people don't care if they sell 6 or 600, others are trying to or are dreaming of making a living doing this hobby.

I'm not against making money off of homebrew games. On the contrary, it is my dream to live off making homebrew games, and I want to see homebrew developers doing well. For me, I just want to play the games and see new games being created. Unfortunately, it has come to the point where I also can't justify the purchase of every single game that is released.  Even from some of my closest friends in the community and as a result I haven't played a LOT of recent homebrew games.  Saturation could actually be the issue for me personally. I could buy a couple here or there, but being a single-income househould, married with three kids, and a fourth on the way, it just isn't possible. My wife would litterally kill me  

I have been known to buy a few homebrews in my day. I love homebrews. I love the people who develp them.
First thing I look for is game play. Is this a game I am going to like? or does it look like something I would like? Is it something I would like in my collection even if I am not going to play it?
Yes...Then is it worth the price the seller is asking?
I will admit I have passed more than once on a game I really wanted because seller was asking to much for the game.

Not all homebrews are created equal. Some take longer to make, some take more room on cart, some take more time for soundtrack...some are small and simple, some are large and complex.
These are all things I think about when I am deciding if I should spend $XX on a game.


I think one of the main problems is to many people (buyers, sellers and programmers) think all homebrews are equal. If Mr. X sold game Y for $65, then I should be able to sell my game for $65 (or more because I think mine is better/bigger/special ect.)

Some homebrews are $25-$40 games...some deserve to be $65-$80.
Buyers are starting to realize this and becoming picky with how they spend their money? I know I am  

I don't get it, if you're targeting the thread to buyers, why you post this into a developers forum, and not letting developers to answer?

And honestly, I didn't even get the point, what it is exactly about.

I will keep this short and honest, most homebrew game's are not pushing many limit's. I do not buy a lot and i will stay on the sidelines till i see more better idea's/quality. I do buy homebrew but at 40 buck's or more, you have to stand apart and have some good value.

There are some impressive homebrew game's that i have seen and some are not going to be finished, i have seen a few awesome project's canceled.

I may get some flack for this but the op wanted real answer's and i will not suger coat.

I decided to re-read your post this morning and I found this. I think this is what SGP wants to discuss. I don't believe I addressed these points in my earlier post, they probably got lost in the surrounding wall of text. Perhaps there's a psychological component to amount of text which makes something seem like a complaint, which clearly this was not.

In my opinion, purchases of games have little or nothing to do with what is released, in most cases. The reason is, there are far, far easier ways to make money in the world, and its those ways where money is actually going to change what is made. When I think of buyers actually influencing outcomes, I think of meetings in large corporations where nobody gives a crap about what is being made and discusses only what consumers want. In NES homebrew, most creators share the nostalgia for the NES era 100% with the buyers...so the buyers' opinions rarely need to be consulted. There's a high degree of confidence that the buyers will at least appreciate what was made.

I'm trying to imagine what would have happened if I could have never sold Nomolos on cart. My belief is I would have finished it anyway and distributed a free ROM. After all, I started before I was even aware this was possible. I had already begun working on hobby coding projects 3 evenings a week and had had a momentum, and already planned to take 5 years to create Nomolos regardless of the outcome. Powerpak, cartridges and finally sales have been incredibly fun icing on the cake. That icing on the cake did not influence how I made Owlia, except perhaps having felt "encouraged" to do so.

Look at indie game groups on facebook, you've got people soliciting feedback on practically every friggin idea, 3d model, song, game mechanic they come up with. That's sort the extreme polar opposite of homebrew...people making games 100% due to market forces, feedback etc. (not that there's anything wrong with that. It's just a tremendous contrast to homebrew, which 95% of the time is done as a labor of love without consulting anybody and without promise of monetary compensation of any kind)

Like, I'm working on a third game now. If the market dries up so much that a kickstarter fails to fund, I'm releasing it anyway.

*edit* Just thought of another important fact. Making an NES game is pretty much the polar opposite of nimble. Say you put 6 months of effort into a project, then solicit feedback, and that feedback implies adding 6 months to a year onto your project. You're probably not gonna do it. With modern game frameworks, people can respond nimbly to what consumers want. So even from a technical perspective, it's hard to envision creators being influenced by buyers. It's extremely time consuming to build an NES game, so in the end what gets built is what gets built. So often we make decisions in the game development process that are based only on what CAN work rather than what we really want to have work, just out of necessity.

I've bought several homebrews cart-only. My money and shelf space is limited and I was not a CIB collector to begin with (aside from a small handful exceptions). So if I can save 10-15 bucks by going cart only, it makes sense for me.

I'm not sure I understand the OP's point about shaping the homebrew community. I did not know anyone felt obligated to buy every homebrew game that got released. I think most people would think its perfectly normal if you only buy the stuff you are interested in. While some trends such as fancy LE deluxe versions don't really appeal to me, I can understand why other people dig that, and I think the market will naturally shape itself to meet whatever is driving the demand. The homebrew scene is still a relatively small niche of the retrogaming community, probably because most people aren't even aware it exists when they first get into it, and when they do get into, they usually have to get collecting for nostalgia out of their system before the dust settles and they start wondering what else is there to play? I think its awesome that these "legacy consoles" still have a steady stream of new games coming out for them. I am even trying to get in on the fun and learn to program, (although its quite a large undertaking)

Derek, I think you have a more positive outlook than the reality. I see money as a big driving factor for many people in it. Some need that money to justify spending so much free time and effort on making the game. Some came into homebrewing specifically looking to make money. There are very few who would continue to develop if there were no sales.

As a buyer, I am just looking for games that really interest me. Great gameplay and/or an appealing art style will get my dollars. If I see someone is going for a unique type of game, I will support that. Or if I can tell someone is really just doing it out of love, I will buy a cart.

There was a big surge of people entering the game and cranking out as much as possible and putting numbers on it to make a quick buck. People ate it all up for a while, then ran out of interest and money. I am seeing less of these quick flip games now, which is for the best. But also seeing less people interested in buying homebrews, which is less incentive for devs to spend their time.

So I guess to answer the question directly, yes, I think buyers have a HUGE impact on what is being released and what it looks like. For better and worse. It really can be a double edged sword.

It's kind of sad thinking of that being the reality, because anybody involved at all in this scene has got to at least remember the NES, remember being a child, and remember that time you were hanging out with your friends in 4th grade and said: "I wanna make a nintendo game some day!" And trying to come up with ideas. It's sad imagining seeing that some sales are possible in this scene and more or less forgetting that original reason why one was interested at all. I refuse to forget it, I refuse to let it be corrupted. It seems to me most folks in this scene feel the same way. I don't think there's anything "wrong" with getting into it just to make money, I just think it'd be really weird. I mean, you can make more money working at McDonald's for crying out loud. If you want to make money in games, make a casual app on Android. You're more likely to make a few k here on NA, but the potential for growth and potentially making it your 100% income is WAY higher in indie and casual mobile gaming. Money simply can't be the reason to get into homebrew. After all, as pointed out the market is drying up...it will probably dry up further. Hate to say it, but I think that is the reality of how nostalgia works. People will continue to love and appreciate retro styled games, I don't think that's changing. But the number of folks willing to work with physical hardware, even new hardware like the AVS, is probably going to fall over time as fewer people remember growing up with the system have any reason to jump in with physical hardware and carts vs. just getting retro styled games on Steam etc.
 

I'm hopeful that GGvm starts providing an additional feedback channel for homebrew devs to reach a broader audience, because it has always seemed like "the market" for physical homebrew has generally be restricted to approx. 30 LEs (with typically 10 given to "staff" and friends and maybe 20 auctioned off) and 100-250 "regular" editions.

Beyond that, it seems like things taper off pretty quickly, and I gather relatively few homebrew have broken in the multiple hundreds of copies sold, or more.



But when you have a core group that will rabidly "buy everything", I definitely agree that will potentially distort the market towards quicker "sure things".
With the downside being the market getting saturated and those "buy everything" buyers deciding they don't want it all, after all.


I'm hopeful that broader (and cheaper-to-publish) outlets (like GGvm) will give you guys a larger paying customer base, so that you can potentially better capitalize on the kinds of passion projects you really want to do. Same would go for kickstarting releases (where presumably a playable demo or even a completed game already exists).

How much time do you think was spent on Russian Roulette, versus the kickstarter payoff?

I'm at a loss for names, but I think there are at least a couple other "novelty" titles like that, where it's a stretch to call it a game, but COMMERCIALLY they did ridiculously well.

​They're definitely making more than "working at McDonald's" on "games" like that...
 

Bringing in some outside market experience which I believe is relevant to the conversation... This really isn't dissimilar to what happened in the early 2000's with the 3rd party tabletop roleplaying game market (where my experience hails from). Honestly, I think is potentially a good indicator of where things with the homebrew community will likely trend. Two things happened during this era of game development: TTRPG became surprisingly popular with the mainstream undercurrent, and print on demand (POD) services became more accessible to the general public. The result was a bust of creativity that eventually lead to market bloat with a "bajillion" splat books. Suddenly designers who had always been a part of the industry found themselves surrounded by a flood of do-it-yourselfer-proclaimed-pro-fly-by-night kind of folks, and many felt the need to churn out products as fast as possible to remain competitive. After the rush, when people got bored with all the quick-and-dirty splat books, the market shifted again and that era came crashing to an halt -- which for the most part was for the best. The end result was not a community in ruins, but rather a community that had gained several new fans; a new generation. The "rush" was actually one of the the market's natural ways of "sifting" through the chaff. Some of the brightest new designers and developers (now veterans) came out that crowd of new-comers. I think this is just kind of the way creative niche communities thrive; a combination of the ebb and flow of popular culture, new talent, and unexplored opportunities.

GGVm doesn't solve the problem of how long it takes to make a game, though... I think if I eventually transition to another platform and have money in mind (maybe because I'm sick of my day job, and would rather be making money making SOME type of game...), I won't be writing 6502...I'd probably be writing Lua or something. I mean it's obscene...things that take me a couple of months on NES I can hammer out in an hour in modern frameworks. This just isn't the platform for making money (talking: long term and sustained. I acknowledge there have been a couple of surprising kickstarters) and I really don't think it'll ever be. That said, I tip my hat to anybody who has successfully sustained themselves on earnings from homebrew games for any length of time, that's no easy feat.

*edit* I should add, the sales on Steam for me personally have not yet even come close to that of NA. I think for a lot of people on Steam their expectations are way higher. They are wanting a Shovel Knight. My homebrews aren't even remotely close to that level in terms of overall quality. I think I could probably only reach that level of gameplay experience if I DID abandon the NES. I stick with the NES for now though 100% because I love it, because I find it satisfying, because being ONE with the system and experiences of my childhood, at least for a few years, is worth more to me than any sum of money could ever be. I'll probably have to move on some day, simply because it takes a LOT of energy to build these type of games, and it is easy to let other aspects of life fall by the wayside while heroically attempting to build them...lol.

*edit* I have to say though, I don't particularly look forward to any attempt to compete in the indie or mobile gaming world. If it's hard to make money here (enough to quit day job anyway), it's going to be 10,000x harder in the "real world." More potential, definitely, but, probably that much harder to "make it." I will likely continue to create games for the love of it. An old friend of mine calls it the "imperative to create." I find the Pico-8 community appealing precisely because there isn't even the remotest hint of money playing any role at all, so it's 100% about fun and creativity. If I wanted to make money I'd make a conscious decision to do so, I would commit myself to thinking about consumers and I'd change platforms. I'm not even sure if I'll wind up doing that. It's too fun to simply create, unencumbered by these worldly concerns.

Reasons why I buy Homebrews:
1. They interest me. The thought of a common Joe making a game on a 30 year console still blows my mind!
2. Support a developer's passion. I have been guilty of buying everything CIB that I can. But that is starting to wane as I look at my collection and say "Why the hell did I buy this?" So, now I try to focus on really well made games or ones that I find interesting or unique.
3. I never EVER got to experience the thrill of buying a brand new game for a system until the PS2. All of my games before that were always second hand. For me, Homebrews are a way for me to experience something that others got to experience in their youth.
4. Meeting new people. I love talking with developers about their games.
5. Collectibles and being apart of a console's legacy. I really feel that Homebrews are just a newer version of late released unlicensed games from the mid to late 90s. Small or 1 man teams putting out physical carts to the market. Being apart of that as a buyer is pretty exciting.


I also want to touch on the LE aspect. I would love to buy these, but the fact is I can't afford them. However, the reasons many LEs are made are to thank those that helped on the project. For them, this is their payment for their services. It's a more valuable unique copy to add to their collection. Now, for those that didn't help but would still like to contribute or support the project, a few more copies are made and put up for sale. These limited copies usually (not always) have more time and materials dedicated to them, thus costing the developer more money in the ones that he has gifted. It really is a win-win for the everyone, in my opinion. A few people sacrificed their free time (and in some cases, their own dollars) to help a developer to make a game and in the end, get a special thank you. Certain buyers can spend some dollars and are rewarded with the same special thank you. The seller gets a decent chunk of manufacturing and gifting costs covered. I know LEs are expensive and many (like myself) can't afford them, however, some of them are really interesting and its very cool way to say "Thanks" to those that helped support the project, either physically or financially. I can say this, if I was a not married with children, I would be snagging a lot of LEs.  

While I would agree that was a novelty title, I wouldn't say it was undeserving of its success. It is difficult to be creative and come up with an idea that's not only new and exciting, but people actually want. Creative talent is just as, if not more valuable than knowing how to program well. And there are many projects out there (in the video game industry as a whole) that take a ton of effort to pull off, but the idea just doesn't catch on, vs a good idea with not so much effort on execution taking off. Minecraft is the first that comes to mind on the latter. Hell, it doesn't even have to be video games. How much time and work do you think goes into building those stupid fidget spinners? All you need is a good idea, that people want. Thats the hard part.