Roth and I have been talking a lot lately in our late night programming sessions.  It's super nice and helpful (and motivating!) having someone to talk to while you're getting down to business, to bounce ideas off of and such.  But we got to thinking... with the influx of new users on NintendoAge (and let's face it, the amount of users has skyrocketed the last couple years) why hasn't the amount of homebrewers increased in proportion?

There are a lot of people who jump in here, talking about how they are going to take the plunge, but then they disappear.

What is preventing you guys from succeeding?  Are the Nerdy Nights too hard to understand?  Are you guys just lacking the motivation to continue through all the lessons?

Rob and I want to seriously help you guys and get this scene going.  We need more people putting out stuff, even if it's crap.  Every game you do will get better and better.

So let us know, what is stopping you?  Is there a way we can present things to help out?

I'm pretty creative, and have ideas ... it just seems overwhelming.

I actually plan to get started with this very soon. I'm going to school for computer science. I've been swamped with classes lately, though. But I'm really really interested in old PC hardware and software. Next semester I'll be learning more about embedded systems languages so that may help a bit.

I have gotten started with the Nerdy Nights but never had the time to really sit down and focus on actually learning something. Parts 1 and 2 were easy enough, but it really dumps assembly on you out of the blue and that's where I really got confused. I have about 3 or 4 years of experience with C, C++, C#, Python, and Java, but I have no experience with assembly. I will explain more about my situation now once I get some assembly under my belt. But I can say that from a complete beginner's perspective (even though I have lots of experience with C and knowledge of how a processor works) the jump into 6502 is what gave me trouble.

"I have about 3 or 4 years of experience with C, C++, C#, Python, and Java, but I have no experience with assembly."  Aaaaaand, that's a foreign laguage to me, which leads back to overwhelming.  LOL, I don't know what any of that means, except Java of course, but I only know the net makes me install plugins from time to time, lmao!!

What's mostly keeping me back is a lack of time, I'm busy graduating from college which takes up a hell of a lot of time. Lots of paperwork etc.
Once I get some spare time though, I'll probably start the Nerdy Nights and see where I land.

I'm one of these guys. Or, I'm a little on/off with this. Would like it to be more on tho, I'm just a little too embarrassed to come here and ask noob crap all the time.


Edit:
More stuff on sprite/BG Collision PLEASE!!

Hi guys! I was super excited to see all the work the NA members have done into helping others learn NES programming but i'm having difficulty understanding Nerdy Nights Week 4. I feel confident through week 3 and with the assignment at the end of week 3 I can get the colored screen to work and change colors; but I get thrown off with week 4 right from the beginning with loading the color palette.

My main stumbling block with NES programming has been understanding all of the hardware intricacies (timing, best practices, the APU). I feel that once you get a grasp of 6502 or any assembly language, then it becomes a matter of optimizing the way you are doing things (this was extremely important in the days of the NES). I have been able to find willing homebrewers in the community for specific help, programming examples, etc., but since I only get the opportunity to work here and there I have issues picking up where I left off. I feel that some well done visual/video aids to compliment Nerdy Nights would be extremely helpful (and something I would be willing to help with). I'm not so much talking about a screen capture of someone's screen and source code, but something more along the lines of explaining design patterns, compression techniques, how to reduce the amount of graphics updates during vblank, and many other things.

If you guys would like to collaborate on something, I'd love to talk about this topic more (can always contact me at [email protected] or Skype: jarrodparkes).

We appreciate what you guys do for the community.

All the best,
Jarrod

I've tried reading the nerdy nights tutorial. I was lost after a few pages of it at best.

My problem is I have about 0 desktop application background. I do some web design, light scripting in php/sql/jquery/JS/whatever and there's no flow to that, no vblank to code around and such. The browser handles everything so bridging the gap is rather difficult in that regard.

Now, that being said, I did understand (or I think I do) the basic logic as it's in essence a loop.

I downloaded the port of scorched earth (forgot the name of the homebrew) but it had the source. I looked through, some stuff was commented, other portions weren't. I think a simple (hah) demo code of side scroller would be a huge help. Something to show how to set a background, a character sprite, a collision block, etc. In essence a very advanced hello world. The more commented source the better IMO.

I'm definitely interested in learning 6502 assembler but finding that helping hand is difficult. If someone wants to release more documentation and examples I'm interested in seeing it.

I would love to learn how to create my own game

however i literally have no experience, nor know what nerdy nights is. Im pretty creative and would love to do something like this. But from what i have heard from others, its easier said then done.

Great question, Khan. I've noticed it's a slow scene as well.

I need to get off my ass and finish my 3rd game. It's almost ready. Just a few tweaks and some music!

So those of you who have responded, what would you like to see?

A video series to complement the Nerdy Nights tutorials? Would it help seeing the code being manipulated in real time, to sort of see what changes?

Should we make a thread for just Nerdy Nights/NES programming questions, so that you maybe aren't intimidated to ask for help? Sort of a "come post your questions here, no matter how ridiculous you think they are." I know I'm scared to ask for help a lot of times, myself.

You guys that are saying you have zero experience with programming, that is totally okay! I personally got through it with no knowledge as well. It's just a matter of digging in and figuring out how the heck things work.

Keep the feedback coming. Thanks so much for responding, everyone.

I have no excuse other than I'm a chronic procrastinator.

I never could get into programming, I'm too busy playing beta versions of games by said programmers

Things I would like to see or help with:

(1) video series to compliment Nerdy Nights:
- these videos could directly correlate or cover other advanced topics
- ideas for videos, "the game loop", "compression techniques, "effective jump tables", "how to organize code/data"
(2) maybe some sort of weekly video podcast "Bit Broadcast" by those who would be considered experts of the NES homebrew community:
- could include spotlight homebrewer each week
- could attempt to answer questions from viewers via chat or forum thread

I'm just spit-balling here. My level of knowledge on the NES is maybe slightly above noob, but I these would fun/useful ways to help the community.

As some know, I tried to get into it about a year ago. Spent a couple hours a day for 2 weeks straight, working through the nerdy nights. Then I just lost the drive. My biggest problem is I was not getting results fast enough and got frustrated to easily.
Plus I SUCK at math, so that did not help any either.

Being who I am and what I do, I definitely would benefit from a visual instruction guide. I learn by seeing and doing, not reading

I think this is a big problem for almost everybody, myself included. I had experienced option paralysis for a good many years and a number of failed projects before I realized...in terms of getting results, you MUST accept the reality of how long it may take. Especially if you have a fairly busy life.

Basically look at it this way...if you're like me, you love retro games. You've always loved retro games, you'll probably still love them when you're falling apart at 95 years old. So who cares how long it takes to make that game you've always wanted...3 years...5 years...10 years...20 years!? It doesn't matter. Let it go slow. If it takes you a year to get a sprite on the screen and move it with the controller, so be it.

For me...this hobby is way different from what one usually thinks of as indie game development. This is something that will be a part of me, forever. This isn't something where I want to basically kill myself with all nighters for months on end. I know a lot of folks find that sort of appealing in a heroic, viking berzerker kind of way, but, I don't.

And, another thing...fast results are not as satisfying. I love that it takes a long time for my games to take shape. When they finally do...its...just awesome. That's all I'll say.

And finally...as for math, you don't really need much math to make a good NES game. Take sinusoidal movement or circular movement for example. You can do these 100% with add and subtract. No joke. Once you learn the trick to smooth movement on the NES so many possibilities open up, you'll wonder why anybody ever invented more advanced math. A bit of tongue in cheek there, but, it's pretty neat what's possible with such simple tools. (*edit* not to say you shouldn't learn some math concepts for movement like acceleration and velocity, but you don't need to be a whiz bang at trigonometry or calculus on paper or what not...that's my only point)

I would love to learn, and have to say i would prefer seeing some tutorial videos, rather then reading myself.

I have no idea if its even possible, but what if someone was to write a program designed for creating NES games? Sounds like it probably isnt possible. But basically it would take all the technical codes out of it and just give you like a program. A design sprites option, insert in to a level, pick colors, etc. At the beginning pick out a "pallet" or "type" of game your creating. Platformer, puzzle, zelda style game where the screen changes every time you enter a new area" etc. Then just start building and creating your game. Sounds too good to be true

Is anything like this possible? Seems like it wouldnt be, or if it was it would have already been done.
However i know 10 years ago, the stuff bunnyboy and retrozone have done.... was said to be impossible.

ideas?

I was just watching some of your tutorial videos on youtube 10 minutes ago. My first step into this. lol
Looks tough i have to say, but i feel insprired after seeing your videos  

With the programs you created it makes it look easier. 

This is a great thread, I started working through the Nerdy Nights a few months back and basically haven't had any time to get back. I do have a computer science background, and as strange as it might sound, I actually excelled in x86 assembler when I was in college. The road block I hit was with background graphics and interacting with my sprite. I decided I was going to go a little rogue and with the Nerdy Nights started making a breakout style brick breaker game. I do intend to get back to it, but don't really have the time now.

I would love to be able to contribute something back, and hopefully some day I will, even if it is super basic!

I dunno if I'd call those tutorial videos! They were more showing people what I've done. Also, some of those tools should be linked in those vidoes for when you may end up needing them. Speaking for myself though, I enjoy helping people out 1 on 1. I grew up before the internet was widespread, so that's how I roll. Call me old fashioned. But, if you ever need a helping hand, send me a pm.

I have a thread that's intended to help beginners jump-start their knowledge of programming with a special book. I'll go find it and paste the link here. Here it is: http://www.nintendoage.com/forum/...

Isn't the point of programming to make something new and original?  This would take all the "impressiveness" and "skill" out of it.  And it would make all the games that the said engine popped out cookie cutter copies of each other. 

There are already simple engines out there kinda like this.  But they are level editors of such and such.  The problem that most newbies run into is shortcuts.  They all want something to be done for them and all want things to be "pre-coded" so they don't have to learn that part.  Strictly speaking, the NNs skip over a lot of the tech stuff (as far as what you're actually telling the computer to do) so that you can get to a usable game fairly quickly.  For me, most of the fun that comes from programming is beating my head against the wall trying to make something work the way that my head thinks it should work. 

And math is important, but I think you could do it with a basic understanding.  Once you can correlate what you're seeing on the screen to the #s in RAM, you're golden. 

Actually, that might be a good NN...

I've said it before and I will say it again. I think the problem is most people who want to design NES games don't have the background skill set to do so. If it weren't for my computer interfacing class in college, I would have no idea about assembly. Its very difficult. And while I spend 80+ hours in the lab for two semesters, I still think its difficult. And kids or adults who have some programming experience in high level languages just cant grasp the concept of a low level language.

Now that I have the knowledge and skill set to hack my way thru an NES game, I find that time is hard to come by. Especially since one little thing takes for ever. Maybe its because I am trying to establish my own framework. Maybe if there was like a pre built package or something more games would get turned out.... I dont know, I think I am just rambling.

This is the truth about NES programming that I think is the most important thing for aspiring NES homebrewers to accept. A very small, insignificant seeming task can take a lot of time and effort. Even with more experience. You have to become accustomed to and even enjoy an incredibly slow pace.

I don't see how any game on any platform can really be faster, anyway. Making any original game takes enormous time, effort, and care. Don't take the blue pill of fast results and ready made game making products...take the red pill. Accept the reality of NES development.

MRN and Lucas
Both of your responses are kinda discouraging to someone like myself. I went from having some inspiration for wanting to learn, to back where i originally standed.

Sounds too hard

Thanks guys lol

MRN - I agree about the cookie cut analogy with games coming from a template etc. I also agree that people would love to express their original ideas and come up with new games. HOWEVER they have to start somewhere. I have not played battle kid or nomolos but have seen videos of both and have to say battle kid looks very similar to Mega Man, and nomolos reminded me of castlevania with a cat. I Mean they both look amazing, but still there are similarities there, obvious ones.

Just cause you can create a game a little easier isn't a bad thing. Yea the games might not be completely new groundbreaking ideas, but they would at least be a start for people like myself who have no experience. And the rate of people who want to learn that end up giving it, may be less. Thats why i suggested a program designed for making "less original" games. etc.

So to answer Khans question, for me the reason i havent learned to program yet, is because i always read discouraging posts about how im gonna have to smash my head against the wall to make the tiniest bits of progress, or im going to have to spend 80+ hours in a semester class to stand a chance. Neither things i have done, or want to do, or can possibly due with life in general.