So I started thinking the other day... aren't most NES prototypes basically gonna be doorstops in a few years? According to what I've heard, the EPROMs give out after 20-25 years. Is anybody going to want to buy these after the data on the EPROMs is gone? My point here is, there are only a few years left to enjoy these things - so one point of view might be, if you have one, you should just go ahead and get rid of it and make some $$ before it's worth exactly nothing.

I dunno, any other thoughts on this? Would you buy a proto cart you couldn't actually play, and had no way to tell apart from any cart with crap blank EPROMs stuck inside? Is this an aspect of our hobby where the value's gonna go way down in the near future?

Most people who own protos get them dumped, if even for their private archive, so that when the data rots they can either re-flash it, or just maintain it in a permanent form on their HDD.

The protos themselves will still be valuable so long as the games are preserved.

The roms could also be erased and reburned to last another 25 years

Oddly enough, from what I've read over the years, this may not be true.  There are several high profile proto collectors who have no backed up substantial portions of their collections, and I can't figure out for the life of me why they haven't.


This one is a little tricky too.  I would have no problem reflashing any of my protos that are socketed, but I don't know what I'll do to my protos that are soldered into the boards.  Some of them have been rewired to the point that I couldn't even pop them in an EPROM programmer even if I desoldered them, so it can be tricky.


To Nothing02:  EPROMs are a lot more resilient to decay than most people think.  Most arcade boards, especially the older ones, are populated with butt loads of EPROMs and most of them are still running strong.  Bit rot is a slow process, and although some data will begin to be lost, it may be an awful long time before enough is lost to notice any differences in game play.

As to value in the future, well it's not exactly a sound investment.  Who knows if people will be interested in purchasing NES protos in the future.  There aren't many of us buying these things as it is, I'm not banking on my collection putting my future kids through college.

I buy them because I love having them and I love sharing data to the community that would otherwise sit on a shelf.  I don't plan on selling, well, ever really, so future value isn't a concern of mine.  Heck, if it was, I wouldn't be dumping and releasing all my stuff for free

Hm. That's shocking to me. Actually I find that to be just plain irresponsible. To invest in the purest form of NES history, and then not be a proper custodian of that record? I guess I assumed too much.

I couldn't agree with you more.  They can do as they wish as they own it, but I've come across a few heart breakers in my time collecting that were just completely avoidable.

Take Kartoon Kombat for example.  Totally unreleased on any platform Genesis game with nothing more than 1-2 screen shots from magazines available.  I have a 3.5" floppy that has the data for the game.  3 of the 4 files on the disk are perfect, but some physical damage to the disk has ruined the 4th file, rendering the data totally unusable in regards to putting together a functioning ROM file.

How long would it take to but it in a drive and save the files elsewhere?  30 seconds?  Didn't even require materials that most people don't already have in order to preserve the game.  Totally irresponsible and most likely caused us to lose a game forever.

There was a great thread on Assembler where this was discussed, and many chimed in that these collectors "lack the hardware" to properly preserve the games.  I've invested well over $10k in protos (writing that makes me want to faint), a CopyNES was the single best purchase I ever made.  It's crazy to me that other collectors don't feel the exact same way.

Just because you don't have the hardware, doesn't mean that you can't find a kind person that will dump the game for you. There are those out there that have the ability and will do it for free to make sure the rom lives on. 

^ The issue with relying on others is trust, esp with unreleased games. I think some people have been around long enough, that they don't trust anyone...and rightly so. I'm not going to recall shenanigans-past, but the potential for misuse is staggering, esp after seeing the price tag that some of these unreleased games commanded.

I'd always wonder if someone who copynes'd MY unreleased game retained a copy for their own personal use...and years down the road what might happen in that person's life to lead to drastic measures.

Mason is the type of proto collector where he wants the data publicly available, so when I offered to dump his proto, as long I as returned it to him he would come out on top.

I hear where you're coming from, I guess it just depends on who you trust with your stuff. For example, I have no problem sending i2a2n2 any of my unreleased games as I trust him like a member of my family. Then again, my ultimate goal is to release everything I have, both unreleased and released games, so in enough time the release of ROMs that I gave to certain individuals with confidence will be a non-issue.

I am familiar with past shenanigans as well, so I know this could easily turn ugly, but it's my personal belief that these people who are so protective of their belongings should spend the $70 and back up their data.

With less or no rewiring to the board the chips can be reprogrammed while still soldered in.  Just need to get a DIP test clip ( http://www.ap-products.com/images... ) that connects to the top of the chip, then wire that to your programmer.

Hmm...

Would this also allow you to dump individual chips that we still soldered to a board? How much do these things run? This could be something extremely useful to me for dumping protos of games from other systems.

Super cool info Brian, thanks!

so why couldnt you just dump the game, burn it to new eproms and wire them back in?  i dont see the harm in that

Yes I think all games ( released, unreleased, and proto )should be dumped to preserve the game for the future. I do understand that there is a value given to games that aren't dumped, but when the game eventually "dies" if you don't have a rom it will most likely make the cart worthless. I don't believe that somebody would pay 5 grand for an unplayable cart that once held an unreleased game. Now if the game is dumped, you might be able to find a way to reflash that cart to keep its value. When it comes time to sell it, you give the buyer the cart and the CD with the rom on it.

Bunny, do you have a plan if the NWC carts start to fail? I would certainly pay to have that assurance. I know you must have considered it at least being you got one as well.

Very good question, and I don't know how others would react, but I would never consider doing this ever.  At that point I would view it as a reproduction on prototype software.

I am not completely opposed to the idea of reflashing chips with the exact same data they once contained, but once the chips are removed and replaced with other chips I no longer would view it as authentic.

Excellent question though, I'm curious to see how other members (proto collector or not) feels about this.

I have found this as well... and I dont understand it either. Both disc and cartridge prototypes will suffer from bit rot so it boggles my mind why several high profile prototype collectors wont sacrifice the time to protect their investment. What is even more disturbing to me is the fact that all that precious data will be eventually lost.

I have backed up my disc protos many times over and have a good portion stored on an external hardrive as well as back up cds.

Stuff needs to be dumped and/or backed up in its original form, whether it be public or private. 

It is kind of like a piece of artwork ya know.  Not all the original owners still have their piece.  Current owners like to share them with communities and some like to display them privately.  However, not like paintings, sculptures or installations, these pieces of artwork/history need to be backed up.

Well, I would assume their argument is that if they back it up, it's no longer a truly undumped prototype, and the value will plummet.

the problem with their argument, is if is never dumped, gets bit-rot, and wont play; the price will plummet as well. Ether way they are out their money, unless they have a way of reflashing the original prototype with the rom.

I'm not saying you're wrong. But if they're looking at a short-term play, rather than planning to hold it forever, they could be sacrificing a substantial amount of value.

Dumping and releasing are two different things.  There's no devaluing that I've seen from someone dumping a rom and keeping it safe for themselves.  Devaluing typically occurs when the rom is publicly available.

For all intents-and-purposes, the two are virtually identical. Once the game has been dumped, even for a personal collection, the data is out there. There is no guarantee that the person who dumped it won't share the ROM after they sell, if it still sells for the "unreleased" premium.

I totally understand the argument, but then again I try to look at the market of who would potentially be buying the game.  There are not a whole lot of people right now tossing around $1k+ on protos, and although each individual game brings an individual group of potential buyers, there is definitely a specific group of people that tend to bid on/buy these things with some regularity.

I have yet to see the perceived value of a proto plummet due to the game being backed up privately.  I personally would have no issue buying a one of a kind proto that has been dumped privately from a respected seller (Dream, DRX, Tempest, Martin of NESWorld, etc.) on their word that they would not release the ROM publicly, or better yet, delete the file after the sale.  I'm just one person of course, but it wouldn't bother me in the least.

As to a public dump, well history has shown that protos sell for considerably less after they have been dumped and distributed (I think we all agree to this at least), so I can understand the argument there.

I think most of us tend to ask if the ROM is currently available and circulating rather than if it has been dumped for personal preservation, though I could be mistaken.

None of this contradicts what you said, I'm just curious if others share the feelings of (what we perceive, as I'm right there with you) those collectors who don't back up their games in an attempt to keep their value.

I like where this thread is going, very cool conversation done in a manner that I don't know if I've seen.  Nice work TS!

I completely understand what you're saying, but I have to disagree.  I can say from personal experience that I've bought and sold unreleased prototypes at a premium even after they've been privately dumped.

I think a lot of it comes down to trusting the seller.  For example, I have purchased a dumped unreleased prototype from DreamTR at a premium because I know he's trustworthy enough to not release it without contacting me first.

I suppose I could understand the price being relatively unaffected if the seller was beyond reproach.
But personally, I'm not, nor will I ever be, in the market for an undumped proto, so I guess my opinion on the underlying psychology may be skewed.

My personal feeling, is that, if the "undumped" status is important by itself, why would a personal backup not taint that status significantly? It opens up a lot of unknowns.