Skip navigation
NintendoAge
Welcome, Guest! Please Login or Join
Loading...

NintendoAge 2015 Weekly Contest Summer Tournament Presents Round 3: Stinger Contest ends Sunday, 7/26/15 at 11 PM NA time

LOCKED TOPIC

Jul 27, 2015 at 11:58:45 PM
guillavoie (125)
avatar
(Der Graue Kasten) < Master Higgins >
Posts: 8907 - Joined: 12/03/2007
Quebec
Profile
Originally posted by: bearcat-doug

Originally posted by: bimmy_lee

I understand completely that the rules for Stinger ended up not being the greatest and created a lot of controversy.  When the rules were revised last Monday, the looping problem was not considered to be an issue because it was believed that no one would be looping the game 8+ times.  Had we known this beforehand, one loop would have been all that was allowed.

I guess that I have to shoulder some of the blame for this since I suggested the new rule set after the potential flaws with the original set were found. I had no idea that multiple people would be able to loop the game enough times that their runs would last over several days or I would've suggested that it be limited to a single loop as well. I'm as frustrated about how things turned out as anybody, but after having time to cool off and think about it, I don't really think there was any way to expect this as being a potential issue going in.
 

I don't want to go in lenght about it, but if I had been around, there is good chances that the rules would have stayed the same from day 1. The problems raised against the first set of rules weren't really solid at all. You can't view lives counts? Whatever, since we're already playing on honor and any excessive score would have required some kind of verification. You can't pause during boss fight? Well, if you die during a boss fight, just grab your camera and take a picture, it doesn't matter at all to lose more lives during the process since the score won't change.

We played that game back then with the 1-life rule, and 4 players scored over 3 million in just one life ( http://vintage.nintendoage.com/fo... ). Take note that the level of competition was way lower than it is today. Now, letting people play all their lives and considering how much extra lives you can get in this game, it was quite normal to see those huge scores getting posted.

My concern here is that I verified the rules for the final round before leaving for vacation, and I knew it was a workable set of rules for a competition. If the rules had to be changed, they had to be changed in order to keep it competitive, which was the point of the 1-life rule. Allowing only one loop would have been workable, but you need to know the game very well before realizing it.

With all this said, it wouldn't be impossible that the same dudes that were able to score 100-75-50-etc. millions would have got the best scores in a one-loop only contest, so I really don't think that the final results are as outrageous as some are making it looks like.

-------------------------


 


Jul 28, 2015 at 12:09:34 AM
acromite53 (21)
avatar
(Evan ) < Lolo Lord >
Posts: 1892 - Joined: 12/08/2013
Texas
Profile
Damn. Nice sunset riders dropkickorange. I'm jelly. Thanks again bimmy for giving out very generous prizes and running this whole thing. It's been super fun.

Jul 28, 2015 at 12:10:42 AM
bimmy_lee (78)
avatar
(Kevin Miller) < Bowser >
Posts: 7072 - Joined: 08/10/2009
Michigan
Profile
Okay, it's time for the Elimination Prize drawing.  This prize will be made available to everyone who was eliminated from the 2015 Summer Tournament.  The prize will be a complete copy of Star Wars: Dark Forces for the PS1.  Here's how the drawing will work.  Everyone who was eliminated will be given a random number.  I will use a random number generator to pick the winning number.  First off, here's a couple pictures of the game:





And here is everyone's number:

1 - EgasKrad
2 - gutsman004
3 - barrelsAndRivets
4 - Megamanfan
5 - BilltownSparty
6 - UncleTusk
7 - mattbep
8 - cdbblw
9 - Geester
10 - bearcat-doug
11 - WashYourFace
12 - Caleb47
13 - floydfan38
14 - TWarwick07
15 - fatalfuryspecial
16 - link463
17 - Balloon_Kid
18 - khog143

I will announce the winning number shortly.  Good luck everyone

-------------------------

My NES collection count: 757 games (16 to go for a full set)

Latest Purchase(s): Snow Brothers

"Wait...Bimmy and Jimmy??  How'd they make a mistake like this!?  Bimmy isn't even a real name!"

Beware the Bimmy Marsh!

Proud owner of post #2000, #2900, and #3800 in Inner Circle HQ thread


Jul 28, 2015 at 12:28:18 AM
bimmy_lee (78)
avatar
(Kevin Miller) < Bowser >
Posts: 7072 - Joined: 08/10/2009
Michigan
Profile
And we have a winner!  Here's the winning number:



Congratulations to barrelsAndRivets for winning the Elimination Prize for Star Wars: Dark Forces!

-------------------------

My NES collection count: 757 games (16 to go for a full set)

Latest Purchase(s): Snow Brothers

"Wait...Bimmy and Jimmy??  How'd they make a mistake like this!?  Bimmy isn't even a real name!"

Beware the Bimmy Marsh!

Proud owner of post #2000, #2900, and #3800 in Inner Circle HQ thread


Jul 28, 2015 at 12:46:52 AM
dropkickorange (31)
avatar
(Nate ) < Eggplant Wizard >
Posts: 380 - Joined: 07/19/2011
Connecticut
Profile
Wow, I didn't expect Sunset Riders to be one of the tier 3 prizes! Thank you bimmy and thank you to everyone who puts their time and effort into making these weekly contests so much fun.

-------------------------

"What happened? Your dog think your Game Boy some huge biscuit? Your kid drop it into the toilet..."

Jul 28, 2015 at 1:07:34 AM
barrels (149)
avatar
< Bowser >
Posts: 7306 - Joined: 11/25/2011
California
Profile
Sweet, thanks bimmy! Pm incoming

Jul 28, 2015 at 9:36:12 AM
skinnygrinny (68)
avatar
(a.k.a. the grinder. kobra kai! 42 foot tapeworm. Dragon kid. Sqoon kid. Surfer brah!) < Master Higgins >
Posts: 7595 - Joined: 12/08/2013
Florida
Profile
Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

Originally posted by: neodolphino

 
I don't know that I agree, some of the reasons relate to points you made. Not a big deal, just a suggestion. Also, eliminaion type tournaments many times are done when you are playing the same "game" round afer round. The general ability does not vary much fron round to round, only who you are matched with. When you change the game with each round, it does come down to luck of the draw on the last game, especially when you face off against 4 other people in your bracket. Just my opinion, doesn't really matter either way. I still had fun.

That's a valid point, of course, since last year I would have come in first or second of Tier 1 if DD2 had been the opener and the pinball game had been the final.  But instead I made it to the finals but got stuck in the elimination slot (4th out of 4) rather than placing.

 


i just have a few more thoughts on this if i could ask you guys. if i remember correctly we did play a video game in each round, its not like i had to win a game of checkers in round two but seriously. is the idea, instead of playing different genres in each round, that we should play the same genre each round? in that case you would still lose to a specialist.



-------------------------
 2016 - weekly contest "trash talker"

"...fated to pretend" - M.G.M.T.

Jul 28, 2015 at 9:44:48 AM
arch_8ngel (68)
avatar
(Nathan ?) < Mario >
Posts: 35263 - Joined: 06/12/2007
Virginia
Profile
Originally posted by: skinnygrinny

 


i just have a few more thoughts on this if i could ask you guys. if i remember correctly we did play a video game in each round, its not like i had to win a game of checkers in round two but seriously. is the idea, instead of playing different genres in each round, that we should play the same genre each round? in that case you would still lose to a specialist.

 

No, I don't think that's a serious suggestion.

I think we were just discussing the observation that the way a video game tournament of this nature works is not a direct analog to the types of sports/competitions that typically have this sort of single-elimination tournament.



For instance, at one time I think we discussed having a larger bracket and a double elimination tournament rather than the three tier system that we currently use because the double elimination potentially relaxes the concerns about running into a single game you're not great at when you might excel at everything else in the tournament.

It takes more rounds to conduct that sort of tournament, though, and the multi-tier system seems to draw broader interest.


-------------------------
 

Jul 28, 2015 at 10:18:20 AM
skinnygrinny (68)
avatar
(a.k.a. the grinder. kobra kai! 42 foot tapeworm. Dragon kid. Sqoon kid. Surfer brah!) < Master Higgins >
Posts: 7595 - Joined: 12/08/2013
Florida
Profile
Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

Originally posted by: skinnygrinny

 


i just have a few more thoughts on this if i could ask you guys. if i remember correctly we did play a video game in each round, its not like i had to win a game of checkers in round two but seriously. is the idea, instead of playing different genres in each round, that we should play the same genre each round? in that case you would still lose to a specialist.

 

No, I don't think that's a serious suggestion.

I think we were just discussing the observation that the way a video game tournament of this nature works is not a direct analog to the types of sports/competitions that typically have this sort of single-elimination tournament.



For instance, at one time I think we discussed having a larger bracket and a double elimination tournament rather than the three tier system that we currently use because the double elimination potentially relaxes the concerns about running into a single game you're not great at when you might excel at everything else in the tournament.

It takes more rounds to conduct that sort of tournament, though, and the multi-tier system seems to draw broader interest.
 



got ya. thanks for your time.

a double elimination would take a while : \ and it would have to be constructed in a way that you wouldnt have a repeating genre, in wich one still might run into his\her weakest genre in the final round.

i hate to beat a dead horse. i think the only way to eliminate the possibility of losing in the final round because of ones lack of skill in a particular genre or to a specialist, is to play one of every genre where you are awarded points based on where you finish each genre and the one with the most points at the end would win. like i said before, even in that style one could dominate a few rounds and still be beaten by someone who never actualluy won a round but averaged a better finish throughout. but at the least it would reduce the chance of anyone announcing the idea that they were beaten by a bad draw.

-------------------------
 2016 - weekly contest "trash talker"

"...fated to pretend" - M.G.M.T.

Jul 28, 2015 at 10:24:54 AM
arch_8ngel (68)
avatar
(Nathan ?) < Mario >
Posts: 35263 - Joined: 06/12/2007
Virginia
Profile
Originally posted by: skinnygrinny

 
i hate to beat a dead horse. i think the only way to eliminate the possibility of losing in the final round because of ones lack of skill in a particular genre or to a specialist, is to play one of every genre where you are awarded points based on where you finish each genre and the one with the most points at the end would win. like i said before, even in that style one could dominate a few rounds and still be beaten by someone who never actualluy won a round but averaged a better finish throughout. but at the least it would reduce the chance of anyone announcing the idea that they were beaten by a bad draw.

The question is... what differentiates that from simply being an extension the normal season?


-------------------------
 

Jul 28, 2015 at 11:38:42 AM
skinnygrinny (68)
avatar
(a.k.a. the grinder. kobra kai! 42 foot tapeworm. Dragon kid. Sqoon kid. Surfer brah!) < Master Higgins >
Posts: 7595 - Joined: 12/08/2013
Florida
Profile
Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

Originally posted by: skinnygrinny

 
i hate to beat a dead horse. i think the only way to eliminate the possibility of losing in the final round because of ones lack of skill in a particular genre or to a specialist, is to play one of every genre where you are awarded points based on where you finish each genre and the one with the most points at the end would win. like i said before, even in that style one could dominate a few rounds and still be beaten by someone who never actualluy won a round but averaged a better finish throughout. but at the least it would reduce the chance of anyone announcing the idea that they were beaten by a bad draw.

The question is... what differentiates that from simply being an extension the normal season?






Well, I would think that your points wouldn't be carried over from the regular season. All competitors would start at zero. And there would be less competitors. Those two things would differentiate it from being an extension. It might be a reset with less competitors. I like this three tier tournament and the style in which it is played. I'm just intrigued by this "luck of the draw" idea being something that takes away from the legitimacy of the victory.

-------------------------
 2016 - weekly contest "trash talker"

"...fated to pretend" - M.G.M.T.

Jul 28, 2015 at 11:45:09 AM
arch_8ngel (68)
avatar
(Nathan ?) < Mario >
Posts: 35263 - Joined: 06/12/2007
Virginia
Profile
Originally posted by: skinnygrinny

 I'm just intrigued by this "luck of the draw" idea being something that takes away from the legitimacy of the victory.
I don't think it does, anymore than it detracts from the standings of any given week.
(though i suppose in that case people can see the forecast game selection to practice ahead of time)



The only other option I could think of that would be applicable would be to device a competition style that worked like NWC.  Not timed or a dedicated cart, but come up with a genre-blend with weighted scoring and unlease all 3 or 4 games on the list at once to let people figure out their own optimal strategy for the highest total score.


-------------------------
 

Jul 28, 2015 at 3:54:32 PM
skinnygrinny (68)
avatar
(a.k.a. the grinder. kobra kai! 42 foot tapeworm. Dragon kid. Sqoon kid. Surfer brah!) < Master Higgins >
Posts: 7595 - Joined: 12/08/2013
Florida
Profile
Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

Originally posted by: skinnygrinny

 I'm just intrigued by this "luck of the draw" idea being something that takes away from the legitimacy of the victory.
I don't think it does, anymore than it detracts from the standings of any given week.
(though i suppose in that case people can see the forecast game selection to practice ahead of time)



The only other option I could think of that would be applicable would be to device a competition style that worked like NWC.  Not timed or a dedicated cart, but come up with a genre-blend with weighted scoring and unlease all 3 or 4 games on the list at once to let people figure out their own optimal strategy for the highest total score.






Agreed.

I'm not familiar enough with the weighted scoring : /

-------------------------
 2016 - weekly contest "trash talker"

"...fated to pretend" - M.G.M.T.

Jul 28, 2015 at 4:29:37 PM
TWarwick07 (85)
avatar
(Kung Fu Master) < King Solomon >
Posts: 4139 - Joined: 01/23/2012
New Jersey
Profile
Just my 2 cents on the whole finals controversy:

Contest was fine no changes needed. it has worked for all these years no need to overthink it now. no need to change the tournament formats or rules

Jul 28, 2015 at 5:23:50 PM
bearcat-doug (34)
avatar
(Doug C.) < Bowser >
Posts: 6733 - Joined: 12/04/2011
Ohio
Profile
Originally posted by: guillavoie

Originally posted by: bearcat-doug

Originally posted by: bimmy_lee

I understand completely that the rules for Stinger ended up not being the greatest and created a lot of controversy.  When the rules were revised last Monday, the looping problem was not considered to be an issue because it was believed that no one would be looping the game 8+ times.  Had we known this beforehand, one loop would have been all that was allowed.

I guess that I have to shoulder some of the blame for this since I suggested the new rule set after the potential flaws with the original set were found. I had no idea that multiple people would be able to loop the game enough times that their runs would last over several days or I would've suggested that it be limited to a single loop as well. I'm as frustrated about how things turned out as anybody, but after having time to cool off and think about it, I don't really think there was any way to expect this as being a potential issue going in.
 

I don't want to go in lenght about it, but if I had been around, there is good chances that the rules would have stayed the same from day 1. The problems raised against the first set of rules weren't really solid at all. You can't view lives counts? Whatever, since we're already playing on honor and any excessive score would have required some kind of verification. You can't pause during boss fight? Well, if you die during a boss fight, just grab your camera and take a picture, it doesn't matter at all to lose more lives during the process since the score won't change.

We played that game back then with the 1-life rule, and 4 players scored over 3 million in just one life ( http://vintage.nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?StartRo... ). Take note that the level of competition was way lower than it is today. Now, letting people play all their lives and considering how much extra lives you can get in this game, it was quite normal to see those huge scores getting posted.

My concern here is that I verified the rules for the final round before leaving for vacation, and I knew it was a workable set of rules for a competition. If the rules had to be changed, they had to be changed in order to keep it competitive, which was the point of the 1-life rule. Allowing only one loop would have been workable, but you need to know the game very well before realizing it.

With all this said, it wouldn't be impossible that the same dudes that were able to score 100-75-50-etc. millions would have got the best scores in a one-loop only contest, so I really don't think that the final results are as outrageous as some are making it looks like.



I don't want to go into it anymore either since it's over and done with, but even Tom said changing to my rule set was "for the best" and Bimmy, who has the final say, chose to change them. It was my suggestion, it blew up and I took ownership of it. Saying that the original rule set should've been left in place after the fact is just pouring unnecessary gas on the fire at this point, in my opinion.

-------------------------
2017 NintendoAge Weekly Contests Hall of Fame Inductee

Jul 28, 2015 at 5:47:37 PM
neodolphino (179)
avatar
(Justin ) < Ridley Wrangler >
Posts: 2567 - Joined: 09/25/2013
Pennsylvania
Profile
I don't think people are reading through my entire suggestion... some people anyway.

I said that the first two rounds would -still- be elimination. The whole top 7 and then top 5 would advance and accumulate points based on placement. In the final round, the top 3 win, but the place they come in is determine by overall contest points.

This would prevent someone who placed 1st 1st 2nd from losing to someone who places 7th 5th 1st... in the most extreme example... it mitigates the luck of the draw effect in the last round.

Does that make it clearer, what I was suggesting?

Not saying it should be done, just want my suggestion to be clear.

Jul 28, 2015 at 6:00:23 PM
arch_8ngel (68)
avatar
(Nathan ?) < Mario >
Posts: 35263 - Joined: 06/12/2007
Virginia
Profile
Originally posted by: neodolphino

I don't think people are reading through my entire suggestion... some people anyway.

I said that the first two rounds would -still- be elimination. The whole top 7 and then top 5 would advance and accumulate points based on placement. In the final round, the top 3 win, but the place they come in is determine by overall contest points.

This would prevent someone who placed 1st 1st 2nd from losing to someone who places 7th 5th 1st... in the most extreme example... it mitigates the luck of the draw effect in the last round.

Does that make it clearer, what I was suggesting?

Not saying it should be done, just want my suggestion to be clear.

How, exactly, would you weight the results of the previous rounds?

The problem, I see, is that you risk ending up with a system where:
(1) round 1 -- person A makes the bottom advancing spot (position 7)
(2) round 2 -- person A makes the bottom advancing spot (position 5)

In round 3 is then conceivable that person A makes 3rd place "naturally" but is somehow bumped from the podium because the guy that won 1st in rounds 1 and 2 made 4th "naturally".


It feels strange to have a tournament where a person gets knocked off the podium like that.


Or are you only talking about "rearranging the podium"?

-------------------------
 


Edited: 07/28/2015 at 06:01 PM by arch_8ngel

Jul 28, 2015 at 6:06:01 PM
neodolphino (179)
avatar
(Justin ) < Ridley Wrangler >
Posts: 2567 - Joined: 09/25/2013
Pennsylvania
Profile
Only rearranging the podium.

The only time the points actually matter is when the last 3 standing are identified after the 3rd round is completed.

It keeps the elimination element/feel, but buffers the last round effect in the final placement.

Jul 28, 2015 at 6:31:11 PM
skinnygrinny (68)
avatar
(a.k.a. the grinder. kobra kai! 42 foot tapeworm. Dragon kid. Sqoon kid. Surfer brah!) < Master Higgins >
Posts: 7595 - Joined: 12/08/2013
Florida
Profile
Originally posted by: neodolphino

This would prevent someone who placed 1st 1st 2nd from losing to someone who places 7th 5th 1st... in the most extreme example... it mitigates the luck of the draw effect in the last round.

Does that make it clearer, what I was suggesting?



Not saying it should be done, just want my suggestion to be clear.





I just don't understand why it matters if someone who places 1st twice can eventually lose to someone who sneaks by the first two rounds.

-------------------------
 2016 - weekly contest "trash talker"

"...fated to pretend" - M.G.M.T.

Jul 28, 2015 at 7:11:38 PM
neodolphino (179)
avatar
(Justin ) < Ridley Wrangler >
Posts: 2567 - Joined: 09/25/2013
Pennsylvania
Profile
Originally posted by: skinnygrinny
 
Originally posted by: neodolphinoThis would prevent someone who placed 1st 1st 2nd from losing to someone who places 7th 5th 1st... in the most extreme example... it mitigates the luck of the draw effect in the last round.

Does that make it clearer, what I was suggesting?

Not saying it should be done, just want my suggestion to be clear.



I just don't understand why it matters if someone who places 1st twice can eventually lose to someone who sneaks by the first two rounds.

Because had the games been in a different order (luck), they would have won and because they performed so much better than the other person more consistently (not luck).  It makes the final result mainly about getting lucky with the game selection in the last round.  You aren't necessarilly the better gamer overall, just in that one game.  Sure you can get lucky/unlucky with all 3, but it is less likely.  What I was suggesting also encourages everyone to fight as hard as possible in each round (each round matters more), as the points gained might matter later.  This, as opposed to just doing good enough to move to the next round (in the 1st or 2nd round).

Does my thought process make any more sense?

Jul 28, 2015 at 9:02:42 PM
ninjistar (29)
avatar
(Mr E ) < El Ripper >
Posts: 1055 - Joined: 04/03/2014
California
Profile
Originally posted by: neodolphino
 
Originally posted by: skinnygrinny
 
Originally posted by: neodolphinoThis would prevent someone who placed 1st 1st 2nd from losing to someone who places 7th 5th 1st... in the most extreme example... it mitigates the luck of the draw effect in the last round.

Does that make it clearer, what I was suggesting?

Not saying it should be done, just want my suggestion to be clear.



I just don't understand why it matters if someone who places 1st twice can eventually lose to someone who sneaks by the first two rounds.

Because had the games been in a different order (luck), they would have won and because they performed so much better than the other person more consistently (not luck).  It makes the final result mainly about getting lucky with the game selection in the last round.  You aren't necessarilly the better gamer overall, just in that one game.  Sure you can get lucky/unlucky with all 3, but it is less likely.  What I was suggesting also encourages everyone to fight as hard as possible in each round (each round matters more), as the points gained might matter later.  This, as opposed to just doing good enough to move to the next round (in the 1st or 2nd round).

Does my thought process make any more sense?


I hesitate to reply to any of this. Perhaps we need a thread for this specific topic as to not cloud up the Stinger thread.

At any rate, some thoughts on this. What you describe makes sense, in theory. However, I see some potential downsides with this.

(1) This concept essentially replicates what the weekly contests do right now. You are awarded more "weight" (i.e. points), which are counted across all rounds. The better you do each round, the better you do overall.
(2) The "luck" factor flattens the playing field to a certain degree. Example: if I had to face Tom V (rdrunner) every game based on pure skill and experience, who would always win?  That "luck" factor gives me a bit more of a chance and ...
(3) It makes for a more interesting competition. 

Now, I have no idea what the discussions were creating the summer and winter contests. I wasn't here at that time. However, I have to say that having multiple contests with the same rules and weight doesn't seem to make for very interesting competition. Why even have a separate contest? Sure, a stroke of luck can get me ahead of a more skilled player, and surely did as I took 2nd in Tier 3!  I am as shocked as anyone that I made it that far, let alone placed in the top 3 of my tier in the last round. I think that's what makes these short, seasonal contests appeal to the broader NintendoAge community. It lets everyone at every level get involved and truly have a shot at winning. The weekly contests are still great, and I continue to play in them every chance I get, but I believe that these short contests were build to be something different.


Everything here is said with respect to the NA community and its members. I enjoy playing with you all and have no issue, but thought I'd share this perspective.

- ninjistar

-------------------------
On the hunt for prototypes...

Eat, sleep, collect, repeat.
[ YouTube ]   [ Twitter ]   [ Blog ]   [ RF Generation ]   [ VGCollect ]   [ NA WTB


Edited: 07/28/2015 at 09:35 PM by ninjistar

Jul 28, 2015 at 9:43:06 PM
bimmy_lee (78)
avatar
(Kevin Miller) < Bowser >
Posts: 7072 - Joined: 08/10/2009
Michigan
Profile
I'm going to go ahead and lock this thread up so as not to detract from the actual contest and results. I don't care if you guys want to debate stuff about the tournament, and if you want to keep discussing it, I think a brand new thread will be a better idea than doing it in the Stinger thread.

-------------------------

My NES collection count: 757 games (16 to go for a full set)

Latest Purchase(s): Snow Brothers

"Wait...Bimmy and Jimmy??  How'd they make a mistake like this!?  Bimmy isn't even a real name!"

Beware the Bimmy Marsh!

Proud owner of post #2000, #2900, and #3800 in Inner Circle HQ thread