I always figured the premium originated from the "I'm the only person in the world with this item, and the only one who can even play the game at all".

That extreme level of exclusivity goes away when a person backs it up, unless you absolutely trust them to delete it when they sell.


Anyway, the market for that facet of prototype collecting is tiny, so any evidence regarding sales are pretty anecdotal, at best.

If you own the cart he ( or anybody for that matter) should never release the rom. They would no longer own the cart. It should be deleted off their harddrive. You shouldn't have to worry about them one day saying, " Oh i guess i should email Matt, I think I might release the rom today." Its not theirs anymore. The person gave up the rights to release it when it was sold to you.

^^^^ Any proto that I sell that I have backed up privately, I first offer the ROM to the new owner, and then I delete the file.

I agree 100% with this and I think most people in the hobby respect that.

Arch: Some very good points. To me, the value of an unreleased proto is in what I can do with it once I have it. If a game is only privately backed up, I want people to be able to play it. I'll pay a premium of $1k or more to release the game to the community one way or another.

If the game has already had a major distribution, I no longer value it the same as I can now do less with it than if it hadn't been shared. It has now become a collectible rather than something I can provide to the public, so to me it holds a lesser value.

There are plenty of collectors who look at it as "I can play it, and no one else can. Therefore, it is worth more", so I guess those individuals would more than likely have a different perspective on the value of a proto that has been backed up then I do.  Again, I'm curious to hear what others think.

*Edited for some horrible grammar*

The idea of backing up unreleased/undumped protos is exactly WHY I don't collect protos. I was strongly considering getting into protos, but thinking that I'm basing my investment completly on someone's word (that they deleted the file, they won't release it, or they never dumped it) is just too risky. If I had an undumped proto, yes, I would back it up for myself. Because I can trust myself 100%. I just don't think anyone else can be trusted 100% with the data that I'm spending hundreds or maybe even thousands on. Just my thoughts on protos in general.

If you are worried about someone releasing the dump, you should also be worried about someone else finding a 2nd cart and dumping/releasing that. The value of your cart could highly depend on what someone else does with theirs.

But the original chips can still be used, it doesn't have to be new chips.  The original ones can be reused to get another 20-50 years and nobody would ever know unless people start inspecting solder joints or taking samples of the solder mixture.

Again, my opinion on this matter is purely speculation into how proto collectors might consider things (based mostly on seeing what DreamTR has had to say in the past).

I gather that you, and your brother, are in the minority when it comes to benevolently releasing previously undumped games.

I really dont think dumping a prototype for your private collection has any impact, especially since nobody  would even know in most cases unless you advertized that you made 20 backups of your proto disk. I am talking about back up as an essential means of preserving histroy and data as in the case of CD based media it is especially critical (cdrs cant be reburned on original discs where as carts have the reflash option). I personally believe there is a great deal of responsibility that goes along with owning a prototype. My collecting interest lies mostly in the preservation of the data, and  Ienjoy sharing and releasing information about the games to the general public.

Many of the prototype collectors that have not dumped the roms are mostly interested in the potential for profit with future sales as well as the persoal interest of being the only person who can play the game. However, by choosing not to dump their protos, their is a potential for lost data which means a major loss in value and the game may be rendered unplayable. So to me it really makes no sense.

Maybe in recent times, but it could also be attributed to the fact that we've been buying most of the unreleased games for sale lately.

Skrybe has released a shit-ton of unreleased NES games in his tenure without a dime of reimbursement, Martin from NESWorld has released several as well.

I actually can't name more than say, 1-2 people that actively collect unreleased protos with no intentions of ever distributing the data.

NESaholic is currently in the works to release Way of the Exploding Fist, and has no intentions of selling American Crisis in hopes that someone can eventually finish the code so that it can be released.

NGD has released 3 protos in the past 2 years or so, none of which were funded by any sort of community dump.

Tootai has said on several occasions that he plans to release Aigina's Prophecy if possible.

The way "proto collectors" consider things should not be based off of one collector's opinion if you ask me.

Fair enough Mark. I guess my assumptions were based off of the fact that the names you just listed, are literally the only people attempting to release unreleased games.

Maybe that accounts for the majority of "proto collectors", but I figured that the seven of you were in the minority.

Honestly, I have no idea how many people out there collect prototypes, so I could easily be drawing a faulty conclusion.

Not at all man, I really wish I had a better idea of how many people actually actively look for this stuff.  There are plenty of people that own say, one or two protos because they happen to really love the retail version, but I don't know if I (or they I guess) would consider themselves proto collectors.

When I go to places like Assembler, I feel like disc based proto collectors are much more common than cartridge based proto collectors.  Seem to be a whole bunch of people that collect that stuff (like our main man Gimmick), I wonder what they do with their protos.  I'm pretty ignorant to the habits of disc proto collectors as I've never really followed the market or trends relating to it.

I was close mindedly working with assumptions I've made from NES proto collectors without thinking much about the other proto collectors out there.  I'd love to hear more from others, again both collectors and non-collectors.

From what I've seen disc proto collecting is very much the same in terms of the types of collectors and their interests.  There are some that will do community ISO releases, some that dont release any info or roms, and others that sort of fall in the middle of things.

here is an excellent point on dumping or not dumping proto's

kitsune sniper was selling a proto for the game the Rocketeer that had most likely had bitrot or what have you occur http://nintendoage.com/forum/mess... and it sold for $50 rdunfee bought it and just sold it recently to me. for around the same price. if this proto was still viable I could only imagine that it would be going for at least double that and maybe more. but thats really not the point like MrMark with the genesis proto that is lost, the data on this proto is most likely lost as well. now ofcourse I'm going to try and dump it when I recieve it but I hold very little hope that anything salvageable will be able to come of it. in reality all your buying is a Dev board now because the data is gone. it would be the same thing as if I said I had a proto for War on Wheels but the data on them was corrupt... sure it would probably sell for more then 50ish bucks but it wouldn't sell for anywhere near what it would if the game was still viable, and again all you would be buying would be a dev board...

that is exactly what i said above. I am glad somebody agrees with me. 

oh and since I'm probably going to game core I would gladly provide a free dumping service for any snes proto's where you could watch over my shoulder or I would even let you do everything as long as I can get ahold of the proper hardware before then and once the data has been saved onto a CD or DVD or usb Flash drive I would delete the file , empty recycling bin and use a program called CCleaner to completely remove any trace of it off of my computer just for the simple fact of it being backed up so that at least the data wouldn't be lost

I didn't know you could reburn an old EPROM, but that's good to know. I guess a proto would still be mostly "authentic" then - ? Interesting, I'd definitely be for releasing it if I ever came across an unreleased proto - I mean, it's just too sad to see a game die forever, and I think that would cancel out any of the coolness of having something nobody else has ever played or whatever.

well you'd have to dump the chip first and the only way I would ever consider re-flashing an eprom from a prototype would be lets say I dump the proto when I first get it. like once a year I'd re dump it and compare the 2 files if during one of those checks I notice that the file has changed from what it was before then I would know that bitrot is starting to occur... but still I don't know if I would re flash it or not BUT if I did I would be sure to tell anyone down the road who might be buying said prototype from me exactly what happend and why I did it...

ofcourse you'd have to use an eprom eraser to completely blank the eprom because you can't write over the eproms if their is any data on them

The cost of buying a device to copy prototype NES/SNES games is trivial. In 50 years, do you think anyone is going to care about these prototypes, long after they have decayed due to the lifespan of the chips they were burned on?

I have to say though, the best prototype ROM releases have come from people not seeking profit. From Demiforce's release of Earthbound for the NES, to the anonymous person who purposely released the binary of StarFox 2, they understood the underlying value of the data. I still think video game collecting is merely a fad, and especially so with something like prototypes that have a shelf life.

Ha. Well it does seem to me that probably people aren't gonna be too interested in buying a hunk of plastic with some blank EPROMs inside once the game itself is gone. What I was thinking is that it's best to sell now unless you plan to keep the proto until it dies just due to the joy you get out of having it in your hands.

And I guess you could call proto collecting a "fad," at least since I guess it's gonna die once the protos are dead themselves. But I'm sure people could come up with tons of reasons why video game collecting as a whole isn't a fad. This stuff is gonna live on, at least in people's memories... haha.

This may be too much nerdyness    Each bit is a gate, think fence gate that is open (0) or closed (1).  The gate needs a minimum number of electrons to hold it open, otherwise it swings closed.  

One note: I see collectors claim to "own" a rom since they own the prototype. I'd like to remind you guys that you might have the only rom in existance...but you don't own it. The actual owner is the company who wrote it (or the person)

Possession and ownership are often used interchangeably. Regardless of who "owns" the ROM, many companies didn't give a shit about them to the point that they never retained a copy.

Without proto owners caring about possession of the cart/ROM, many of these would be gone to everyone forever.

Just something to think about.

Yeah but that stil doesnt mean you own it. The company might not give a shit about it...they own it.

As I said, many use possession and ownership interchangeably.  Regardless of ownership, in the name of preservation, this community is lucky so many of us possess these things and appreciate them more than the companies that produced them 20 years ago.

Not debating the ownership piece, but I could absolutely care less about who owns the rights to it.  If the "owners" care enough about any of the carts I possess, they can have them back after they win them in court.

I am firmly of the belief that the data on these prototype games should be backed up - and backed up well. Once the data is gone, it's gone forever.