Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

The question is how do we square up the oddball companies like Waixing that didn't even make games during what WE consider the "life span of the NES" to actually be, but are apparently large companies that still make games today.

 

Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

The question is how do we square up the oddball companies like Waixing that didn't even make games during what WE consider the "life span of the NES" to actually be, but are apparently large companies that still make games today.

 

Originally posted by: tracker465

Waixing was founded in 1993.  This is still the NES era, imo.

 

Originally posted by: tracker465


Arch, I am talking about real life situations, realities, you are talking about hypotheticals.  
 

Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

Then why was their "10 year anniversary" video talking about 2008?

 

Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

I think a hypothetical would be useful to fully understand where you are coming from.

Other than "existed during the NES period" there MUST be some other set of criteria, because if somebody spooled up a full scale operation tomorrow, you would be hard pressed to call that "homebrew".

What is the threshold?  In what category? (production numbers, staff size, budget, etc)

Going back to the date of company start just seems stupid and arbitrary, when you're trying to say that a for-profit, income sustaining enterprise is "homebrew", no matter the scale.



You mentioned the beer example... interesting example since alcohol distribution laws are so serpentine.
Most microbrews will never be able to sell outside of their own state, and many (possibly most) don't even distribute outside of their hometown.

But they're not "homebrews"... that is literally a small batch that somebody cooks up in their kitchen.


In what way is RetroUSB a publisher of "homebrew" and not "microbrew"? (i.e. they are producing for-sale merchandise on a relatively small scale compared to the "macrobrew" equivalent)

Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

I think a hypothetical would be useful to fully understand where you are coming from.

Other than "existed during the NES period" there MUST be some other set of criteria, because if somebody spooled up a full scale operation tomorrow, you would be hard pressed to call that "homebrew".

What is the threshold?  In what category? (production numbers, staff size, budget, etc)

Going back to the date of company start just seems stupid and arbitrary, when you're trying to say that a for-profit, income sustaining enterprise is "homebrew", no matter the scale.



You mentioned the beer example... interesting example since alcohol distribution laws are so serpentine.
Most microbrews will never be able to sell outside of their own state, and many (possibly most) don't even distribute outside of their hometown.

But they're not "homebrews"... that is literally a small batch that somebody cooks up in their kitchen.


In what way is RetroUSB a publisher of "homebrew" and not "microbrew"? (i.e. they are producing for-sale merchandise on a relatively small scale compared to the "macrobrew" equivalent)

Originally posted by: dra600n

So aftermarket means homebrew? I guess all the aftermarket car parts are just homebrew replacement parts then?

I think the term unlicensed is an antiquated term these days in regards to older consoles. Homebrew is generally something a single person (sometimes gathers help from friends or other resources) and they don't have a budget and/or a whole lot of money vested in their projects. Once it hits the market and is earning an income, that person/team is no longer a "homebrewer", but an independent developer.

I think it's foolish, as well as insulting, to consider it otherwise.

Originally posted by: tracker465

I think you are quite mistaken in regards to microbrew, and you obviously don't know enough people in the industry, from comments such as " most microbrewers will never be able to sell outside of their own state, and many (possibly most) don't even distribute outside of their hometown"  I can't comment about the state thing, but I suspect it to be false, seeing as I only drink microbrew / homebrew, and I have bought dozens, if not hundreds of microbrew beer in Pennsylvania and Maryland.  



 

Originally posted by: tracker465

Arch, I view games from relativity to the Famicom / NES itself.  Let's face it, the garage projects that the guys on NA and elsewhere make are fun to support, fun to play, and fun to collect, but they are irrelevant to the actual NES / Famicom scene of the time.  That is why they are homebrew titles.  They are aftermarket, often small, garage projects, etc.
 

Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

I actually know the people at the microbreweries in my area, and I know a number of people that work in beer distribution.  I have a decent understanding of how it works.

Yes, you have bought dozens of microbrews that have managed to get over the regulatory hurdles AND have sufficient capacity to meet non-local demand.  Both of those issues can stop widespread distribution, and aren't worth the hassle for a lot of smaller family owned microbreweries that are simply happy to do well in their own local area with the support of the local community.

(also, a TON of those "microbrews" you are buying are actually being distributed by major distribution chains owned by the larger breweries -- if you're buying a true microbrew not in its own state of origin, there is a decent likelihood they aren't handling their own distribution)



 

Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

If you want to talk about relevance, the stuff these guys are doing is WAY more relevant to the English speaking world of NES gaming than what is being done by Waixing.

(and similarly, the stuff Waixing is doing today obviously can't be relevant to the "actual scene of the time" -- it's current production for a no-longer-manufactured system)

Originally posted by: dra600n

So aftermarket means homebrew? I guess all the aftermarket car parts are just homebrew replacement parts then?

I think the term unlicensed is an antiquated term these days in regards to older consoles. Homebrew is generally something a single person (sometimes gathers help from friends or other resources) and they don't have a budget and/or a whole lot of money vested in their projects. Once it hits the market and is earning an income, that person/team is no longer a "homebrewer", but an independent developer.

I think it's foolish, as well as insulting, to consider it otherwise.

Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

This is the crux of it.

Plenty of projects start as homebrew and then get "widespread commercial distribution" through the available publishers in the scene.



I mean, all this BS about size of the company, or location (i.e. "in the garage") is nonsense.
The guys that made Super Meat Boy were basically a team of two unemployed, unfunded programmers/artists that made it big with an indie release.  Were they "homebrewers" since they didn't have a company with a track record?
(the same is true for quite a few "indie" PC titles that we've seen over the years)

Why does the platform even matter for this kind of distinction, anyway?

Originally posted by: tracker465

Once again, an American-centric viewpoint

1.  There are dozens of Waixing games that do not require the usage of Chinese to play.  Platformers (i.e. Journey to the West), fighting games, etc.

2.  You are trying to place an American viewpoint over whether the NES / Famicom is still relevent in China today or not.  I would say it is barely relevant today, but five or ten years ago, quite relevant here, even though not at all in the USA.  Again, date is not a good measure of whether it should be conisdered homebrew or not...

 

Originally posted by: Faxanadude

Err.. An unlicensed game was put out by a software company with the intent to pass it off as a real game and distribute it to stores and sell it during the lifespan of the NES to actually turn a profit.

A homebrew is a passion project that some guy in his basement makes 20 years after the NES life span in limited runs and with no intent to distribute.

Originally posted by: JimJames

How a homebrew is marketed and sold doesn't change the fact it was was brewed....at home...

Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

Are we on a Chinese forum talking about this subject?  Did any of us grow up in that region with Famicom/Chinese-pirates being our primary access to the medium?

Of course I have a Western-centric view on the subject, as I suspect is shared by the vast majority of the site.




When you are talking about relevance... what percentage of market penetration are you calling relevant?  (or are you basing it on absolute sales/revenue)

I mean, China DOES have 1 billion people in their market.  A company can be wildly successful and tap less of that market than was excited about used NES games in the USA even 5 years ago.

 

Originally posted by: dra600n




What if the home is a registered business entity with the town and state? Still just a homebrew?

Originally posted by: tracker465

Arch, you are admitting that you have a western-centric viewpoint on the subject.  You are admitting that you are not looking at things objectively.  That is not good, for any argument, and quite frankly, I feel disappointed.

Relevant?  Relevant.  If Famicom was still being bought and played by thousands of people in 2000 or 2008 (and the fact that large companies were producing games for the machine would suggest this to be true), then it seems to be relevant, there.  If games are not being produced, and only limited 100 copy homebrew games for fans were being produced and marketed, when everyone else goes and plays the latest X Box, then that doesn't seem relevant.  Do you disagree?
 

Originally posted by: arch_8ngel


What if they spent all day at the Public Library or Starbucks and worked from a laptop like many, many other freelancers choose to do, that don't want the overhead of a "real office"? 






I think the ONLY definition that both: (a) "makes sense" AND (b) doesn't insult people is:

(1) IF you, yourself, as the programmer/developer call your game "homebrew" then it is homebrew.

(2) IF instead, you call your release "unlicensed" or "indie" or whatever, then it's that, since that is how you labeled your release.


Date of production isn't relevant.  Profit motive isn't relevant (no reason that a not-for-profit entity can't have a "real release").   Whether it's a "love" project isn't relevant (lots of big-time names in PC programming LOVE their projects that they make and sell as indies)

Originally posted by: arch_8ngel


I'm disappointed that you haven't been able to answer any of my hypotheticals about how a new entrant could be considered something other than "homebrew" in your view.  To me, that speaks to a lack of a fully formed and internally consistent opinion on the subject... which also is pretty bad for making a sound argument.




So "thousands of people" in a country of over a billion makes it "relevant"?  Really?  That is pretty ridiculous, considering that Brian has sold/distributed Battle Kid to "thousands of people" in a country 1/3 the size, yet you claim that somehow lacks relevance.