I totally understand.

EDIT: How about you guys set your own time? It doesn't have to be a specific hour on a certain day. You can post in the forums a week before the class is going live and people can sign up that way. 

I know there are some time differences here, but maybe having a rough time slot during the week or weekend when everyone tries to get on a specific IRC channel? You could suffice by making a sticky post that suggests a rough time table when certain developers may try to get on the channel. Also, for those willing (including myself), you could list an email to be contacted at for certain types of questions incase you cannot be on the IRC chat?

The more I think about it, certain questions may boil down into a FAQ category (which I think this forum already has somewhere?). The statement about not making this a job is very true. NES development for me has always been about having fun, reliving memories, and growing as a developer. I hope as a community we can find a solution to better/freshin' up the dev' scene without making it become too heavy a burden.

    The main thing stopping me is, as I mentioned above, time management. I go in fits and spurts with the Nerdy Nights tutorials. It really becomes difficult to pick up where you left off if you're out of it for a week or two. 

  Speaking as someone from a graphic arts background (i.e. screw math, I wanna make some pretty pictures!) trying to wrap my head around some of the concepts was agony at first. When I finally got the whole binary/hex thing down, assembly was right there to push me back down into the mud demanding my lunch money.

  I suppose my main gripe was that I needed something ALOT more visual (a need which ultimately led me to create that article for the Ezine). A tutorial that is slower, more structured, and contains some kind of "homework", or an end of chapter quiz would be great! References to good books would be a plus (kind of how college classes require you to buy certain books to be able to participate).

  It also doesn't help that, at the end of the day when I'm tired and burnt out, I can either choose to:

  A) Play Contra
   or
  B) Crack open the Nerdy Nights.

 9 times out of 10, Contra wins...

well, I first came to NA looking for NES programming resources. that was quite a while now and I still haven't finished the basic NN tuts.I came to grips early that I was fighting an uphill battle and I was OK with that. For me it's mainly life getting in the way and when I come back to it I have to re-learn just about everything all over again. so It's a little aggravating. however each time I get a little farther and it gets a little easier. the last time I tackled the tutorial I has the background, walls, and paddles made and moves with the corresponding controllers, but the bounce mechanics were all wonky. I was super excited that i was so close to finishing the basic pong. Then my laptop decided to crap out me (still is) and at the beginning of the month I had ordered a few books on assembly and had my pay checks structured out so that by the time I finished reading them I could buy a new computer. As luck would have it my brother borrowed my car last week and wrecked it. So i'm gonna be a while before I can pick back up into it again but at least I have some content that I can read up on and hope that something clicks.

I'm also a big Audio/visual learner. So a video tutorial of someone explaining what is going on in the tutorial would help me tremendously. Sometimes we type differently than we talk.

I've taken courses in Networking so binary and Hex aren't my issue (I'm not intuitive at it but I know how to convert it at least)

Something like that would be definitely be possible, but it would be a huge undertaking to create such program/toolset, several times harder than even creating a NES game. So you have to ask yourself what would motivate somebody to do something like that. Nobody is getting paid for this (maybe the author could get some very minor licensing fees from the users of the program if the game is released), and we're talking about a 30 year old machine here, so doing it would have to be entirely a labor of love.

I'm willing to bet the thread was about repros. Repros are a touchy subject, because people are benefitting from other people's copyrighted work, and many of the people who ask questions about how to do this and that repro end up disappearing with no trace after they get their answer.

I don't think that's true, but I understand it can sometimes seem like it. I think it's because the NESDev forum is very information/technology oriented, so the answers often tend to be blunt and to the point.

Was just scrolling through and saw it....they can be helpful, just can't go in there with certain "tones" of posts. They like to help, but they get pilfered for information too often, so they're always a little skeptical of everyone.

http://forums.nesdev.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=7451
:)

Also, I'll b watching the feedback from this thread...this is a good idea, to see where NN and such can be improved.

Like so many others, some programming experience. I have a goal, a couple different game ideas and I'd like to finish one, sell a few copies (and make an arcade cabinet for it!!! running an NES inside, of course).

But learning something like this is a HUGE time commitment. Then you add in the fact that you'll have to keep at it to not only improve but also to keep not forget what you worked so hard to learn.

What I think would be a huge help would be "teams." And it's so hard, because people flake out like crazy over what? $20 NES deals? So now, you aren't likely to find people IRL to team up with, so you've got to trust other people you've never met.

But if you could get a group of 3-5 people to team up and say, okay, this persons working on art, this person programming levels, this person programming the engine, this person the music, etc. etc. etc. And you've got to be accountable AT LEAST to the point where if you can't do it anymore they will send all the files they have over and the team can continue on.

That way, you can learn together and take a smaller chunk. The biggest problem here, I would think, is everyone would want to be director/producer/designer.

It's like in College, before the game, there was a class at SUNY Oneonta called Rock Band, where the class split up into bands. 100 guitarists and 5 drummers, it was a disaster.

It is a big commitment but unless you already have an extremely jam packed lifestyle it should be possible to fit it in a couple of days a week. That's approximately the pace I go at. When I'm lucky its 2 days a week and an evening. And, at that slow pace, I was able to finish a game. You will definitely forget things. There are a ton of technical details of the NES that folks at nesdev could probably rattle off off the top of their heads, but I'd have to go look up. If you structure a program well enough you can abstract away a lot of things you don't need to know all the time, and in addition, once you solve a problem once it isn't too bad to look at what you already did to bring yourself back up to speed. I don't think I'm all that great of a programmer, but I wanted to make a game really, really, really, really, really, really, really badly. It is possible if you want it enough. Like I said before, a lot of folks here are like me: you'll ALWAYS love retro games. Who cares if it takes a shitload of time. If you enjoy making those tiny steps, and fully commit to it, success becomes inevitable.

As for getting help with level design, art, and music, I think the NES isn't quite as taxing as later systems for art and music, your artist and composer will not have to put in as much time as the programmer and level designer will (unless you're ridiculously ambitious on absolutely all aspects of your game...!!). At one point, I wasn't sure if I'd have help on art---I was planning to make a game with SMB1 era graphics!  Personally, I'd be happy to see some homebrews with a primitive graphics style, kinda like VVVVVV. It's an artistic choice.

 Well for me, I don't think I could even begin to understand such things... like I  
 want a N64 game cartridge controller... badly... but if I were to try and make  
 one... I'd probably end up in a corner with a hammer rocking back and forth, lost
 in confusion.   

Right now, I'm an OK romhacker who does some translations and some NSFW hacks for fun...
I would love to make a NES game with nerdy nights but I have problems doing assembly with Parralels Desktop (Mac guy there).
Oh well, one day when work won't be killing me, I'll go and learn that stupid assembly!

i would love to program, tried to understand the tutorials on here but i realize i need a step by step video, thats the only way ill learn. i have no background in computer programming so its all a different language

Hold that thought for a month! I believe I will start working on videos soon, since that's what most people seem to think will help them.

I like the real time idea, it's almost the webs version of "hands on training" in a classroom.  I need to see to learn if that makes sense, I have a hard time putting things together in my mind.  I'm an electrician by trade (in the USAF just so there are no contridictions) and I still draw things out before I start a big job .  I have free time, a great P.C., I'm artistic, thoughtful, and would love to know how to program; I just don't!!

*I can not spell, I know*

Heard a few people talking about finding time, I am excellent with time management. If anyone would like help with time management let me know. Here are some basic tips, build a plan to work, work the plan you built.

Basically, if you slot 2 hrs. to work on something Tuesday nothing should interfere, unless it's an emergency. We all waste time, a lot of it, whether it's surfing NA, surfing the web / T.V., on the phone chatting with friends, etc. If you have a plan you know what you should be doing, which leads to my next thought; build a plan and follow it! Set an annual (yearly / 12 month) goal, now break it into specific monthly task, finally a weekly / daily plan that will bring you to that monthly task. For instance, you may need 20 hrs to complete project X in a month. An hr of work 20 days out of that month will do it, plan those 20 hours! We waste so much time (have I said that yet, lol). Sometimes I come home and start watching whatever my wife is, then an hour is gone and I'm like, crap, I could have been doing something productive. If I had a plan telling me otherwise I'd be okay, but without a plan you tend to drift....

If you can do that and actually follow it you'd be amazed how much time you have. I work out often and decided I'd quit answering my cell phone and chatting with friends in the gym.  This adjustment cut 30 minutes off each workout (sometimes more); that's 2.5 hrs a week just by not F$T%&ing talking in the gym, lol! Now my plan says 4-5 p.m. is my gym time; no matter what at 5 p.m. I need to be headed out.  That forces me not to entertain those time wasters; like talking to ppl in the gym or being on my cell.  Now, if you do chat it up with friends, play on your cell you should still leave at 5 p.m. as planned.  If you regret missing your workout and feel you didn't accomplish waht you set out to do at the gym, good, you should feel that way.  This is where accountability comes in, evaluate yourself, admi you wasted time and adjust.  What's more important, BSing with friend, or working out?  Now schedule time for one or the other, both, whatever.  Just build your schedule to accomodate what's most important and stifck with it.  

The biggiest thing is you just need to be conciseness of time wasters; most people can find 12-16 hours a week of wasted time!  Alot of this just comes down to holding yourself accountable and admitting you mess up.  Anyways, that was a long rand, good luck!

P.M. If you have any questions!!

Yeah, I read the tutorials, it was good at first, but then got to be a bit overwhelming when I stumbled upon something confusing and no explanation to what it meant. It can be very intimidating, and very demanding.

What's funny is that for me as an artist, creating something is usually child's play. But for something like this also takes a whole new learning of a new skill set takes more time and dedication than I rather endure. When I create something, I wanna see instant results, with simplistic hands-on approaches.

Wanna draw? Pencil and paper. Bam.
Wanna sclupt? Clay and chisel. Done.
Wanna write a story? Arguably even that can be done without it being intimidating or rocket science to figure out.

I have helped create games before, but only as an artist. I do pixel art (and not some Sonic recolor, I mean real pixel art!), but programming may not be my thing unless there was a easier way to get into it. Hopefully videos would help.

  Yeah, that was one of the biggest hurdles for me. It is such a departure from what I am used to as an artist, having that immediate gratification of seeing my work take form in front of me right then and there.

  I will say that after having learned a little bit of how assembly language works, there is a kind of artistry at work. It is, if you will, beautiful, in it's own right. Some people look at an old muscle car and see beauty, others a painting, and still others a sandwich. I see (in my limited fashion) the way all these numbers and letters work together to create motion and color and it is beautiful.

  Now I just need to learn how to make a #%&!@ paddle move!

So there has been several recommendations for doing some sort of video/hands-on training to help those pursuing/learning NES development. I completely agree, but before going any further I think there are wrong and right ways to go about this.

In my programming experience, the most useful training videos I have watched are produced by a company called TeamTreehouse. TeamTreehouse has an excellent model for online learning/training that is facilitated through quick, simple, and informative videos (not just a monotone voice and screen capture wall of code). Most of their videos are offered through an online paid subscription; however, they do offer some free videos that anyone can watch online. Here is a sample of one of their videos explaining the difference between fluid, fixed, adaptive, and responsive web designs (a hot topic in modern web design!):





Just to give some insight, I watched one of TeamTreehouse's series on responsive web design and PHP, and in less than a week I had a custom responsive site of my own built from scratch. The format seen in the above video is what I would anticipate as being a very effective way to do video-based training for the NES. Now of course, the quality of the videography, effects, etc. in the TeamTreehouse video may not be something immediately achievable by the community, but I am willing to take that leap myself (and any others who might join me?) to help produce some similar type videos for the NES community. I used to help produce "training videos" when I was working with the guys at Elysian Shadows doing "The Adventures in Game Development" (

is the first video I was a part of - keep in mind, that was awhile ago and I think we could have done a much better job of teaching, but that is not all those videos were about). Even if only one video gets made, I would rather the community have a starting point than just a wall of text and good intentions in this thread.

Like I said, I would be willing to help create such videos, but I do not consider myself an authority on all things NES. Thus, if KHAN Games, Gradual Games, or any of you guys that are veterans would like to assist me, I would greatly appreciate having someone with more experience spot checking the content. Obviously, anyone's help here would be beneficial and I'm not discouraging anyone that is not a veteran, but at least the veterans could do quality control for code and content.

So yeah, what do you guys think about this?

I'd love to get into NES programming and have thought about it for some time but I think I may just be a little too stupid when it comes down to it, lol. I've never been good with math, it's my weakness. I'm just good at giving ideas for games. Maybe someday I'll actually give it a shot.

You're one of the guys who took me up on trying out the book Assembly Language: Step by Step, right? Do you think it helped you get past some initial hurdles in your journey?

Math should be the least of your worries. The #1 hardest thing about making an NES game is simply that is is time consuming, and a lot of things need to be made from the ground up. I found it a pleasant surprise just how little math I needed. Lots and lots and lots of arithmetic, but not that much math. For smooth movement like a jump for example, it's all just adding numbers together to simulate velocity and acceleration. So I guess you have to know those concepts but, in terms of "being good at math" which to me conjures up doing tests and homework, no you don't. I failed so many math exams in college I probably couldn't count them on two hands.

  Yup! I would say that it was pretty helpful, especially at the beginning of the book. I got lost from about the middle to the end, but am currently rereading it.

@GradualGames @KHAN @Roth @AnyoneThatReadThePost?

Any thoughts on my prior post?

If you have the time and motivation to make videos like that, I'd be happy to take a look.

Agreed.  By all means, take the plunge.

I would love to be a homebrewer, and I've made some small demos based on Nerdy Nights and other tutorials I've read, but they've never turned into anything and I lose the motivation. And by the time I get back into it I've lost most of what I'd learned and have to go back to step one.

One of the reasons I think I haven't gotten anywhere may be because there is so much scattered information, and by the time I've ingested it all I've forgotten the first bits. Nerdy Nights is an awesome resource, but a lot of the people here have their own separate blogs/sites where they also talk about NES programming and how they're tackling/have tackled issues. It's all very inspiring and gets me thinking in pseudo code about tackling my own issues. Sometime I get them written down, other times I don't. Maybe having forum threads to tlak about NES coding and our problems and solutions to them would help get people talking with eachother and thinking about coding.

In response to the suggestion of a video series, I think that would be IMMENSELY helpful, to both myself and others like me. This thread in and of itself is a great motivational tool for a lot of us I think. Having someone say "Hey, we see you. Where's your game?" I think will light a fire under a lot of us and get us remotivated. A lot of people I think may have lost that motivation (myself included)

One of the issues I have with gamedev in general is where should I start? I have a few ideas in mind for a small project I could add to as I learn and become more confident with my abilities until I have a full game, it's just a matter of getting there. And by start I mean in terms of the actual programming. I know I should start simple and build complexity as I get used to it, but I mean I've gotten a sprite to move on a screen. What's next? Collision detection? Jumping? Shooting? Making a level? I'd like to start with a level based platformer(single screen at first I guess then adding scrolling) action, like a mix of Mega Man and Castlevania. I figure I'll reread all of Nerdy Nights and try and implement the lessons into what I want to start out with as a base demo and go from there. I've got a lot of fragmented ideas of what I COULD do code wise to make certain things happen, it's just about putting it in order and putting it together in a way that works.

Besides videos to help people digest the info I don't really know what would help. Maybe if someone could collect all the cool stuff out there and put it into a singular resource it'd be easier to find everything rather then hunting down tidbits in blog posts. I guess it'd help to have different commented source examples(for different genres) as well, though I've seen those in some of those blog posts.