this is why i didnt want to start the topic myself

Well... if we do a fundraiser count me in for at least two donations of at least $85 each. I think we should! I still think that we should do the whole numbered cart thing/limited run for anyone who donates - but I'd be willing to donate when I get the cash and then purchase a copy after the fact (hopefully an LE )

We should at the least start a list of people at least interested in donating around $100.
1. me!

can someone shed some light on the legality of a fundraiser?

Would the legality of the fundraiser change if say we did it with the intent of just getting the cart to someone who has the ability to dump it? This way the fundraiser is essentially just to get somebody a copy of a prototype... and the dumping could occur separately after (albeit it would need to be a guarantee - don't want to donate a couple hundred just to have someone else have a copy and not share)

The legal issue is that the prototype itself is technically the property of the IP owner, coupled with the fact that the resulting dumped ROM infringes on their copyright.


People do plenty of grey market stuff like this without any kind of legal consequence, though.

My bigger point was that if you're going to engage in that line of activity, it is generally advisable to keep it private and discreet.

For that much money ($70 for no cart even?!), I'd say pay the guy to make the goat game instead.

HAHAHAHA

Touche... but I'd donate for both lol

People should be able to donate ever how much they want. I really doubt fundraisers like the Resident Evil one were full of $100 donations, people just donated ever how much they wanted, and thats how and why we saw a release of the rom.

I'm not saying to only have donation possibilities of $100 or more.. I'm just saying that an incentive should be left to get people to donate more. If you have a run of numbered carts with bonus items that will not be available unless you donate a certain amount - then it may give more people a reason to donate more. You could list on here who donates and then list who donated the 'LE' amount - let's say for the sake of argument $100. Then if after the game is dumped let's say that someone is chosen to mass produce the repros - they could make a certain amount of LE ones specifically for those who donated at least $100, as well as a standard one for everyone else

Having an incentive is a good idea, and it probably would help get donations.

Another legal issue to take into consideration, now that Paypal is issuing 1099's, is going to be taxes.

Whoever takes up the collection needs to keep good documentation so they can show they don't owe taxes on the $5k-$9k...

If the money got transfered threw the gift option on Paypal, do you think that would resolve the tax problem?

Just because Paypal lets you categorize it as a "gift" does not make it a gift in the tax sense.
Paypal is not the IRS.

Having done this in the past, I'll bring up a few issues that would need to be resolved before anyone sets up a "fundraiser".

First, DreamTR should be required to delete any backups that were made. That's pretty much a given, but difficult to enforce. That can pretty much be taken on faith, Dream's a trustworthy guy.

DreamTR needs to provide some information about the cart, starting with where it came from. Starting a fundraiser for stolen merchandise is a good way to get arrested.

The main value in Socks The Cat is the fact that DTR has been claiming for years that it's the only copy in existence. Before someone starts a collection for infinity dollars, there should be some explanation as to how this ended up being the only copy left. Nintendo Power and Gamepro both reviewed the game, and I doubt they shared a copy.

There's a large difference between "the only copy" and "the only copy that I know of".

Considering the dollar amount being asked, would DTR be willing to offer a refund if another copy shows up?

I just find it insanely hard to believe that a game that was "complete and ready to be shipped to retailers, but was suddenly cancelled following the closing of publisher Kaneko's US branch." was only ever burned to a single eprom...

It really sounds to me like you dont trust DTR. I dont see any reason why he should have to get rid of a backup copy of something he once owned. And since the intentions would be to release it publicly anyway, it would inevitably be dumped on some rom site, so I see no point in your first requirement.

Second, I am very interested in this. But I dont think he releases his efforts and secrets of the trade.

Third, there probably are other copies out there. But it is doubtful their importance is realized or taht they are in the hands of someone willing to make it publicly available.

Fourth, why should DTR have to offer a refund if another copy becomes available. If there is another copy available that copy should jump on the bandwagon before its too late and have a bidding war with DTR.

These are just some of my thoughts on the issues. Im just making debate, not trying to start a war.  I agree it would be wise to discuss all concerns of fundrasier before one were to take place. (Even though I  feel we will never get our feet in the right direction at this pace)

It's not a matter of trust, it's a matter of business. When you're asking for $10,000 for an SNES cart, it's going beyond a fun little hobby and straight into "Federally Regulated Transaction".

In regards to deleting backups: The value in the game is due to the fact there is only one known copy. It's up to the buyers to decide who gets a copy, and how. DTR is well known for modifying the roms of a prototype prior to their public release. If the buyers, as a group, decide that only people who donate $85 (or whatever) get the original copy, and everyone else gets a version with an NA splash page, that's up to them. If DTR wants to donate $85, he's more then welcome to a copy, just like everyone else. Asking the seller to remove backups isn't an unreasonable request.

Sourcing the cart: Again, we're talking about significant dollar amounts here. If I have to explain to the IRS why I made a $10,000 transaction, they're going to want to know what I bought. If I tell them "Well... the seller wouldn't say where it came from..." that's not going to fly. If the game came from a legitimate source, then there shouldn't be any harm. If the game was acquired illegally, then reselling it for $10,000 isn't cool, regardless. Prototype collecting exists in a pretty gray area, lets try not to outright flaunt breaking the law. If he bought it at gamestop for a dollar, great. If it was stolen by an employee and sold on the "black market", we deserve to know before we hand over the cash. The buyer needs to perform due diligence.

Refund: DTR is coming out and saying that this is the only copy of this game, it's been said multiple times in this thread. He's putting his reputation on that fact, and that's a large part of the value in the cart. If it turns out there are other copies out there, then he unfairly represented the sale for the purpose of driving up the price. Vouching that this is the only copy, selling it for $10,000 then having another copy come up a week later due to the publicity sounds like a good way to get sued.

I fully trust DTR, i've done an awful lot of business with him. But the price he's asking for this game deserves full disclosure.

^^^ No offense, but trying to control what happens with the original ROM once the genie is out of the bottle is retarded, and is a useless gesture.

This is NOTHING like a legitimate homebrewer not wanting people to copy and share the ROM they worked to create.

i completely agree with the origins although it is prolly something that mgiht not be discussed so "publicly"

If he has the game, he can back it up. Doesn't matter. When he sells it, I'd try to add that to the deal if it was a one of a kind/unreleased proto, but as for he needs to? No. Just get him to agree not to give it anybody else. And until you find another, it is the only in existence. It's like a sales pitch, more or less. If another shows up, it's not his fault in any way. You bought it, you should know another might come out of the woodwork and devalue yours a little.

That applies to things like real estate, not common personal property.  There is no regulation on this type of sale.

He is selling the cart, not the ROM, so there would be no modifications.  Certainly the buyers could ask him to delete copies, but then that could raise the price of the cart.  If it is being made public anyways it doesn't matter.

Yes it will fly, the IRS does not care where he got it from.  There does not need to be a chain of custody on common personal property.  Plenty of people have paid more than $10K for video games without needing to prove the lineage.  Again that extra knowledge could add to the cost of the cart too.

Isn't that up to the buyer to figure out?  What would anyone get sued for?  It could only be fraud if he knows about another copy.  If another copy comes out that he didn't know about, too bad!  Just like buying CIB SE, a pallet could be found tomorrow that devalues your copy but that doesn't mean you get a refund.

The only thing generally regulated about a $10k+ transaction is that you can't structure payments to avoid the bank reporting a $10k deposit.

I have no idea how to work the quote button on this website...

If the seller tells you this is "the only copy", as DTR has stated, I would expect him to be able to backup that claim. Otherwise it seems pretty clear that it was just said to raise the price.

I'm volunteering to setup the "fundraiser" to buy this. I'll pay a lawyer a few hundred dollars to draw up a contract, i'll setup an escrow service, and get the word out to raise enough funds. I'll put in the first $500. After the game is dumped, we'll sell the cart on ebay starting at a dollar and split the cash between everyone who donated.

But first, I'd like to have a resonable assurance that DTR has the legal right to sell the game. Otherwise it's no different then him selling me the Brooklin bridge... If that drives up the price from the current "keep adding zeroes until I say yes" to "keep adding zeroes and add in an extra grand" so be it.

As I've said before, i've bought many things from DTR in the past, and he's never had a problem telling me where they came from. It's a reasonable request, I don't see why it would be any different here.

We're talking the kind of money where it makes sense to bring in lawyers. Let's do this on the up and up.

How do you expect him to back it up?  Personally rummage through the closets of everyone connected to video games or their relatives?  Nobody else has claimed they have a copy, or have seen a copy, or have played a copy in the last ~15 years.  Is there any evidence at all to suggest there is another known copy?

He has possession, and nobody else has claimed ownership.  If he doesn't have the legal right, who is the person that will come after the buyer or seller?  Why didn't they come after the buyer or seller when he got the cart?  

Once you buy the cart making any copies is obviously illegal.  Will you give the donators resonable assurance that you will not commit copyright infringement?  Will you make sure they understand they will not be able to play the game they gave money to?  Or do you plan on mailing the proto to each person in a chain so they get their 1 week of playing?

PA - maybe you missed the memo... but this whole thing is "grey market" (illegal, but with no clearly defined victim or damages)

It is pretty silly to think any reasonable lawyer would want anything to do with it.

Also, for a <$10k transaction, involving a lawyer is going to eat up an extra 5-10% MINIMUM.
It is silly to include that kind of friction in a transaction that size.

You don't use a lawyer when you buy a car. You use a lawyer when you buy a house.