This is one major reason we need more accessible dev tools for the NES.  NESICIDE and Shiru's efforts in C move this notion forward.  We need more people like Paulo Silva who are porting things like ZX Basic to classic gaming platforms.  More diverse developers - not just C and asm coders - are needed to grow a scene.  This growth is what gives more opportunties for conversions like Shovel Knight to happen.

But at the end of the day, these consoles are still a niche, a niche where learning new programming tricks and dealing with quirky hardware is not worth it, at least for massive financial gain. Homebrew games typically sell well, despite a good number of them, my apologies beforehand, not being exactly good looking or fun. Who knows how well they'd sell if their quality was as high as, say, Super Bat Puncher or STREEMERZ? Their quality might garner some mainstream attention, in fact I think the NES port of STREEMERZ is as popular as the flash version!

As for Shovel Knight, the way it sits currently won't work. Thankfully, the game looks messy and cluttered to begin with, so re-doing the game to work on the NES is given. If I knew how to mod, I'd make a mod for the PC version to 'NES-ify' the game as best as possible, maybe even come up with a crude flicker emulator. The game just uses too many damn colors.  The Chinese have been able to port FF7 to the NES, surely this won't be much different.

I think it'd be hard to create abstractions for the NES that don't still require intimate knowledge of the technical details. Almost every corner you turn while developing an NES game, you are being asked by the system: "You either can do this, or this, but not both. Pick. Plus, you will have to code it totally differently depending on which path you take."  That very fact means creating a high-level abstraction that is much higher than say C or asm-with-C-like-macros is going to be tough. I haven't looked into, say, PyNes, but I imagine if I tried to build a large game with it I'd still be confronted with the same issues, have to make tons of customizations in asm anyway.

On another note, I'm kinda glad homebrew is not like the indie game scene. While I greatly admire the indie scene and some of the masterpieces that are created in it, I can't relate to that world of huff-and-puff-and-hyperventilate-and-promote-and-stay-up-late-for-years-and-kill-oneself. I like that in NES homebrew, while we do strive for excellence, our creations are appreciated even if they are a little bit crude. There are many (beloved!) games on the system from its hey day which were themselves crude. To me, this crudity both has appeal in and of itself, AND, makes it an inviting scene to those who don't want to feel pressure to make something immediately amazing or "make something better than there ever was on the system," etc. For me, this pursuit is all about internal reward. The journey of creating a game end-to-end. Money doesn't matter, and impressing tons of people doesn't matter. Though, a little appreciation from fans is definitely nice, of course.

Would you rather those of us whose games you consider shitty not make them at all?  Not asking with any animosity.  Just honestly curious.  I know I can't please everyone, that's for sure.

Come on Kev, that's the whole "homebrewers are entitled" thing coming out of you! ; )

You know what I admire? I admire a Tepples, that talks the talk and walks the walk. I admire a Memblers, that will tell you to "just make it work, and you did it right." I admire a Gradual or Rizz, that just does their thing and don't really interject harshly in this kind of thing.

But I'm with you on this Kev, for sure.

Luigi Master, how about you learn how to code something for the NES that is "good looking or fun"? I'm SICK of your little judgmental attitude, and the stabs you take at homebrewers, without anything to back your critique and never being specific on who you are talking about. If things are SO BAD, then how about you step up to the plate and do something about it? Make a great game that looks awesome and is fun as all get out! If you want something done right, thenyóu gotta do it yourself, no?

It can be done on other extremely low resource systems.  This homebrew is a whopping 2k and was made in a BASIC compiler for the Atari 2600.  Not saying it's the next Yar's Revenge: just that a complete game concept was realised without assembly.

http://www.romhacking.net/homebre...

Are those penises? (would the proper term be 'penii'?)

They are what you make out with them to be. lol.

@Roth @Khan: If you take offense to what I said, then it probably applies to you. That's not what I'm saying, that's just the rule of life. That said, do I really need to understand a programming language that was relevant 30 years ago to be able to say "these games made by a single person are not as good as those games made by an entire team of Japanese programmers"? The hardware is exactly the same, and there is a bar to compare any game to. Even if I did know assembly, surely my game would be mediocre as well, but I would acknowledge it is indeed a mediocre game and not pretend it's something that it is not.

As I just said, it shouldn't be a fair comparison since those games made 20 years ago were made by professionals, more than one usually. Then again, there's also Super Turrican which was entirely developed by one guy, Manfred Trenz. He was less of a professional than Konami's or Capcom's team of experts, and given the single person nature of the game, it doesn't hold up.

Also notice I didn't name any games, but it seems like I didn't need to. Allow me to uphold the NintendoAge tradition of ending my sentence with a condescending smiley face.

Except your "high standard" is an unfinished demo and a port of a flash game. That is like thinking flappy bird is the best indie games will ever get.

The tools, the language, and the hardware are not the problem. The problem is writing a game takes time/ideas and almost nobody has both.

I'm not sure why you're grouping me with Rob.  I didn't take offense.  I asked a question, which you still didn't answer.

"If you take offense to what I said, then it probably applies to you." Lovely analysis. The reason I said anything at all is because you're always spouting off at the mouth about this stuff. I actually have a long history of calling people out on their crap, when I'm not involved, even. So I could care less if your jabs DO apply to me personally. It's your arrogant attitude WITH your jabs at homebrewers generally that piss me off. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, but I have a right to call you a mealy-mouthed weasel, too.

I think you're missing the big picture. Games like The Mad Wizard, Larry, and SBP would all be fair to compare with early NES releases, done by single individuals (maybe 2 or 3, depending if they had help from and artist or composer) and in my opinion (and many others), they're better than most of the early released NES games, and definitely have game play value that would carry through the entire NES lifespan had they come out during the era. You have to keep in mind that while they aren't doing it for the millions of dlls, they're other reasons for doing it that can definitely lead to making some big money in the future. If all of the homebrewers did this for a living, they'd be able to figure out tricks that could benefit their programs, and even use similar methods in working around restriction on newer platforms.

I think you also need to gather some experience in programming to actually understand about optimization. Software today requires optimization to run on modern hardware. I also think you're incorrect about programmers not having "a taste for design". Most do, but when it comes to making the artwork, they often times don't have the skills to make the images they imagine. Regardless, the way you phrase your thoughts and opinions tend to come off as arrogant and gives the impression you'd rather developers not release their "shitty" titles. Hopefully the future homebrewers ignore comments and posts like yours so they can learn, and maybe eventually get the ambition to do a full game to release to the community of a few thousand members that enjoy homebrews and new content for the gaming consoles that millions of people still enjoy.

I can only speak for myself, but I think the homebrew scene is the single best thing about the NES nowadays. Plenty of games have been as good or better than the stuff we were served back in the eighties, bound to soon surpass them as the scene itself (and with it, the collective knowledge about how to make these games) is expanding.

... And then there's the romhacking. Some hacks are practically new games in their own right. Look at DahrkDaiz for instance. I honestly think people have a romanticised view of the kind of NES games we got most of the time back then. Buying something new was always a complete crap shot when you grew up. The idea that a single homebrew creator can't make something just as worthwhile as (or even more worthwhile than) an established team comes from the same general lack of understanding of the medium that made people turn their noses up at PC indie games six or seven years ago, back when they were mostly freewares. You had these absolutely brilliant gamemakers like Jonatan 'Cactus' Söderström (seriously, go play Cactus Arcade 2.0 RIGHT NOW, or else) doing their thing, and people didn't care because it didn't have any mass appeal. Nowadays it's the same story with Michael Brough, whose intentionally broken and inherently flawed creations are absolutely breathtaking.

Who gives a shit about mass appeal and polished graphics? Gamemaking is supposed to be a creative endeavour first and foremost, like all culture. It's about the sharing of ideas, not honing skills in order to, eventually, almost be able to pass off as a 'professional' (I'm sure there are people who have this as an ambition, and that's fine too of course). Imagine what a terribly boring world this would be if we only assigned things value by how closely they resembled commercial products and how much money they were able to make.

If Roth had never made TicTacXO then he never would have built up the chops for The Mad Wizard or Escotero, both of which are definitely pro quality, and I would say compare favorably against even late releases.

If Sivak had never made Geminim then he never would have built up the chops for Battle Kid or Sydney Hunter.

And TicTacXO is a hell of lot farther than I have ever gotten with 6502 ASM.
(and since I know Roth has pointed that game in the past, I should hope he doesn't take offense at a qualitative comparison between that and his latest work)


I think the key difference between some of the visually rougher homebrews and the more polished releases that are pro quality is once a programmer has proven themselves then they can convince more talented pixel artists to join them.


EDIT:
just so KHAN doesn't feel left out:  unless there are releases I'm not aware of he has:
(1) Ultimate Frogger -- graphics look just like the arcade game, IMO.  It's a simple style, but it delivers.
(2) Study Hall -- the style might not be for everybody, but it definitely captures the concept of doodling on paper in class PERFECTLY.  Also, the gameplay itself is super-tight.
(3) Leisure Suit Larry -- looks like an NES version of the PC games.  What more could you ask for?

Didn't want you think I'd neglected to mention you in terms of guys doing their own art versus guys with artists...

Bingo! This is my single greatest challenge as a beginner. My graphics suck and my animation sucks.

well don't I feel unloved lol jk

Figured the brunt of he thread was about NES homebrew.

i still need to buy an av cable so I can try out Felix.
Unfortunatle I am ignorant of what projects you did before that release to build up your chops, so it doesn't really dovetail into my example.

you can download the rom off the airwalk website aside from Hangman SG (ugh), and the Mad Bomber demo, all of my projects have been commissioned and most likely won't see a release unless the content owners releases the games themselves

I do believe there is the need of a team to make something more like a commercial game, for example Streemerz is great, awesome game... could it be better? yes, why not?

but... there's no need to fix what isn't broken!

about another homebrews that are not that perfect, I think they help the programer to understand the system, his limits and his capabilities...
I think this is just the beginning for great things to see, there's romhackers, creators, pixel artists that in some point would meet and start better and better things if they team up

Fox did a good job with Streemerz. Was he able to get full sprite sheets and level maps?

Kind of, by ripping and reverse engineering them out of the Flash game.

I beg your pardon, but Shovel Knight runs flawlessly on Nintendo Hardware. I played it on my Wii-U Gamepad. That technically qualifies as a "Nintendo," right?

EDIT: I read through the whole thread. Sorry for crapping it. I just wanted to say, I've bought a lot of homebrew (NES, Atari, a few of Piko's of SNES, and Fix-It-Felix Genesis). I've also downloaded lots of Indie titles on 3DS, Wii/Wii-U, and Ouya. Both have their merits and both can be very fun. I would recommend buy Indie games on modern hardware to support the developer, just like I support homebrew by buying carts.

One crucial difference between homebrew and Indie games: homebrews are made for love of the hobby. Indie games are made because it's a job, which the development team probably also had tons of fun creating. Niether is better than the other, but next time you think about homebrewers spending 100s of hours designing a game basically for free, show them a bit of respect. Even though money changes hands and games are manufactured and sold, oftentimes the guy building the game carts barely recoups what he/she spent on supplies, etc. If the game maker is trustworthy, royalties are paid out, but this isn't always the case. And I guarantee any pocket change made off these hobby projects goes right back into the hobby. The homebrewers (well, most) all have day jobs that earns them a roof over their head and food on the table. If anything, the Indies have more at stake because if their game gets pirated or nobody buys it, then they are bankrupt. If a homebrewer's game flops, well he still has his day job...