NintendoAge http://nintendoage.com/forum/ -Sqooner Wouldn't homebrews count as "unlicensed" games? http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=22&threadid=148201 2015-06-15T21:24:51 -05.00 Linkmon99 223 Originally posted by: tracker465

Originally posted by: arch_8ngel
Arch, I am fine with labelling the games as homebrew. Every time a post begins this way, I read it in Rob Reiner's voice ]]> Wouldn't homebrews count as "unlicensed http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=22&threadid=148201 2015-06-15T11:25:31 -05.00 Linkmon99 223 Originally posted by: Benihana

I feel we have had this conversation before
http://nintendoage.com/forum/mess... That thread has some good info, but is also tainted by Polarbear's trolling.


]]> Wouldn't homebrews count as "unlicensed" games? http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=22&threadid=148201 2015-06-15T07:49:54 -05.00 Linkmon99 223
Maybe some sub-thread (forum?) could be created for arch_8ngel and tracker465 to resolve their obvious differences? ]]> Wouldn't homebrews count as "unlicensed http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=22&threadid=148201 2015-06-14T02:13:46 -05.00 Linkmon99 223 Originally posted by: tracker465

Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

My personal stance on the issue came about when "homebrew" NES games crossed over into a new tier of quality that rivaled some of the best of what the original system had to offer.  Couple that with increasing production and wider distribution reach.
I saw the arguement as being over after arch said the above quote.  A personal stance based on a highly-subjective item such as "quality".  No matter how much objective information is thrown out there, when the other party admits that their stance is based on a subjective property, to argue is useless as their points are not objective. In the defense of Nathan though, while he clearly expressed an argument based on subjective appreciation, he's still hinting at a sign that can be informative about the current state of these newly produced NES games.

Just like we can see a progression and a complexification in the video game language used by NES/Famicom games over the span of their heydays, we could potentially see that homebrew games began to be more and more elaborated, purely in a technical point of view, over those last 15 years. This can only be viewed as a general observation, and it would never take in account correctly  the specificity of all those games produced, but if we can see a line of progression, it somehow exists.

This said, and I already stated it before, these categories we are talking about can't be defined by said 'quality' of those games, but, I would be ready to recognize that the shift from one movement to another could be observed by some vairous factors, which one 'could be' a variability in the general complexity of games developped (even if it isn't mandatory in the first place, and that 'complexification' doesn't always equal 'better quality' ).

]]> Wouldn't homebrews count as "unlicensed http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=22&threadid=148201 2015-06-14T01:54:31 -05.00 Linkmon99 223 Originally posted by: tracker465

Originally posted by: guillavoie
 
guillavoie, I don't disagree with you at all here.  In this whole thread, you have been (perhaps) the most objective of all, and I really appreciate that. 
Thank you tracker for the nice word, and you know as well that I enjoy discussing such topic with you, whatever if we are on the same page, partially on the same page or in opposition

Now, i just read your last post replying to user, and I must admit that I'm personally quite surprised at a certain stubborness you maintain regarding which games are ported to NES and Famicom and etc.. I mean, is this antagonism really justified to the point that you think it is a better idea to restrict yourself over games not yet ported to Famicom, just by principle?

Okay, those NESentrist guys you're pointing at do exist somehow, but this isn't an unwritten rule followed by everyone over here either. There are also the people that own both NES and Famicom and recognized both consoles as equally worthy, not counting the many that will vouch for Famicom, be it for pertinent reasons or some sort of dandyism.

Maybe I'm asking cause I would never restrict my own access to the eastern Famicom scene because of ideological reasons of the like. I mean, since I discovered emulation in my teen years, I always considered that all NES and Famicom games were, in the end, part of the same group, even to the point that when I first joined NA and became familiar with the NES collecting scene, I was stunned by how owning the US set was pretty much everybody was talking about, while I always thought that all the NES/Famicom (and euro exclusives) games were equally significant.


]]> Wouldn't homebrews count as "unlicensed http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=22&threadid=148201 2015-06-14T01:22:32 -05.00 Linkmon99 223 Originally posted by: user

Originally posted by: tracker465

As I mentioned before, I would gladly give those games a go, but I was raked over the coals for wanting a repro so that the games would fit in with my region, so that I could play on Famicom.

There are many fully playable demos released which you can try on emulator. Moreover, these could help maybe:

  http://www.stoneagegamer.com/nes-...

  http://www.ebay.com/bhp/famicom-t...

(disclaimer: I don't know if/how they work, I never used a Famicom, and I never used such adapters).

Also, if there is some recent NES product that you like and it is not available for Famicom, and you think there is potential market for it, you could ask the owner of the copyright on such game to sell you the right to distribute some Famicom carts of it, or seek to find another form of agreement, hence investing some time and/or risking some money on that project yourself: if that is something you care about for idealistic reasons, even going even economically (or even ending with a little economic loss) and spend lots of time should satisfy you anyways. To blame a "small producer"* of NES games located in the US for not providing a Famicom version of such games released, seems not extremely intelectually fair to me. Decide on other people time and other people money with words, is always easy and extremely likely brings nothing; invest your own time yourself and risk your own money with facts, will way more likely produce that "difference" or "change" that you are seeking for. Just my two cents.

* (pick another "label" or "title" if you prefer). Just to respond to you, I did inquire from some people about having Famicom carts made, but the responses were not overly promising.  And for a means of cutting costs, I even recommended some specific cartridge cases, and offered to help obtain said cases in big enough quantities for a resonable price.  Likewise, I was also more than willing to distribute over in the Asia regions, with my contacts, ultimately no dice though.

But that issue is just a smaller part of a bigger issue.  Without getting into too much detail (there was a large debate about this a few weeks back), the general consenus on NA has been that it is okay to "repro" games that didn't make it to North America (i.e. mostly Famicom games), and that included stuff such as independent / unlicensed / homebrew / whatever  games being developed and manufactured in China to this day, for the Famicom.  When asked wh it was okay to steal these works and reproduce them, and it wasn't okay to steal and reproduce Battle Kid (since it never had a Famicom release / i.e. wasn't available in that region), suddenly a shit storm arose, and everyone tried saying that the two situations were entirely different, yet in reality, it was the exact same situation.  That is a double standard, and I don't feel it right that only the western homebrewers receive this special treatment / protection with their products, yet it is okay for western gamers to take and steal and repro anything else from the eastern markets, just for their own personal enjoyment.

Thanks to the links for the adapters.  I actually already own a NES to Famicom adapter, but I refuse to play those games on NES format with an adapter.  It may be my loss, but I can accept that, especially when there are thousands of other games I can play, and my free time is limited as is.  Those that find no harm in reproing Japanese / Chinese (i.e. Famicom-exclusive) games, homebrew or unlicensed or games still being developed today, one of the reasons is because people who collect NES don't want to have the game on Famicom format, it doesn't really fit in with their collection.  I feel the same way, in reverse, and thus that is why I don't play those games. 


]]> Wouldn't homebrews count as "unlicensed http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=22&threadid=148201 2015-06-13T21:54:00 -05.00 Linkmon99 223 Originally posted by: tracker465

Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

 
I think you are reaching the level of absurdity if you are suggesting that a single opinion invalidates all other objective points that have been made.

That's just ridiculous, especially when you admit your own apparently deep seated bias against an entire class of games that you don't even actually own or play.
 
The difference is the area in which hold a bias, I admit this bias and don't try to argue in that sector; on the contrary, you do try to argue in the sector in which you hold your bias, hence objectivity and logic flying out the window in the argument.

 
That response completely ignores the fact that numerous objective criteria have been brought into the discussion.

You continuing to lean on one opinion that I stated in the face of everything else that has been discussed is just bizarre.

]]> Wouldn't homebrews count as "unlicensed http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=22&threadid=148201 2015-06-13T21:07:54 -05.00 Linkmon99 223 Originally posted by: tracker465

As I mentioned before, I would gladly give those games a go, but I was raked over the coals for wanting a repro so that the games would fit in with my region, so that I could play on Famicom.
There are many fully playable demos released which you can try on emulator. Moreover, these could help maybe:

  http://www.stoneagegamer.com/nes-to-famicom-converter-72-pin-to-60-pin.html

  http://www.ebay.com/bhp/famicom-to-nes-converter

(disclaimer: I don't know if/how they work, I never used a Famicom, and I never used such adapters).

Also, if there is some recent NES product that you like and it is not available for Famicom, and you think there is potential market for it, you could ask the owner of the copyright on such game to sell you the right to distribute some Famicom carts of it, or seek to find another form of agreement, hence investing some time and/or risking some money on that project yourself: if that is something you care about for idealistic reasons, even going even economically (or even ending with a little economic loss) and spend lots of time should satisfy you anyways. To blame a "small producer"* of NES games located in the US for not providing a Famicom version of such games released, seems not extremely intelectually fair to me. Decide on other people time and other people money with words, is always easy and extremely likely brings nothing; invest your own time yourself and risk your own money with facts, will way more likely produce that "difference" or "change" that you are seeking for. Just my two cents.

* (pick another "label" or "title" if you prefer).
]]> Wouldn't homebrews count as "unlicensed http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=22&threadid=148201 2015-06-13T19:57:40 -05.00 Linkmon99 223 Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

Originally posted by: tracker465

Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

My personal stance on the issue came about when "homebrew" NES games crossed over into a new tier of quality that rivaled some of the best of what the original system had to offer.  Couple that with increasing production and wider distribution reach.
I saw the arguement as being over after arch said the above quote.  A personal stance based on a highly-subjective item such as "quality".  No matter how much objective information is thrown out there, when the other party admits that their stance is based on a subjective property, to argue is useless as their points are not objective.
I think you are reaching the level of absurdity if you are suggesting that a single opinion invalidates all other objective points that have been made.

That's just ridiculous, especially when you admit your own apparently deep seated bias against an entire class of games that you don't even actually own or play.
  The difference is the area in which hold a bias, I admit this bias and don't try to argue in that sector; on the contrary, you do try to argue in the sector in which you hold your bias, hence objectivity and logic flying out the window in the argument.


]]> Wouldn't homebrews count as "unlicensed http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=22&threadid=148201 2015-06-13T19:53:21 -05.00 Linkmon99 223 Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

Originally posted by: tracker465

Originally posted by: arch_8ngel

My personal stance on the issue came about when "homebrew" NES games crossed over into a new tier of quality that rivaled some of the best of what the original system had to offer.  Couple that with increasing production and wider distribution reach.
I saw the arguement as being over after arch said the above quote.  A personal stance based on a highly-subjective item such as "quality".  No matter how much objective information is thrown out there, when the other party admits that their stance is based on a subjective property, to argue is useless as their points are not objective.
I think you are reaching the level of absurdity if you are suggesting that a single opinion invalidates all other objective points that have been made.

That's just ridiculous, especially when you admit your own apparently deep seated bias against an entire class of games that you don't even actually own or play.
  As I mentioned before, I would gladly give those games a go, but I was raked over the coals for wanting a repro so that the games would fit in with my region, so that I could play on Famicom.


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