Originally posted by: Dr.Morbis

Yes you do, and you should err on the side of caution. Are you going to list every cartridge anomaly that comes by as an official US release R10? If so, you have to ask yourself this question: Is there a documented case of a box (and usually a manual too) being found? If not, it is very difficult to say a game was released and distributed.

Now, I'm not saying that a confirmed box guarantees that a game was distributed (see Cheetahmen II). What I am saying is that, using the Share Data Chiller as an example, there is no substantial evidence (box or otherwise) to suggest it was distributed. As such, it should be placed in the proto section until such time as it can be confirmed beyond a reasonable doubt.

-I know it's a 4 year old thread, but the post quoted is recent

This isn't as black and white as released or proto. Carts are out there that were never released that are not prototypes. Some are a mix and some are neither. CMII was never released and it is not a prototype.

What is NWC, a prototype or a released cart?

It is hard to change what people think about a game once it is accepted. The reason that CMII and Myriad are accepted by so many people as "released carts" is because Etler put them down on his list. If Myriads and CMII were unknown and not on ANY lists and they were found today would they be accepted as "released"? Would someone today pay 10k for a sealed copy of the newly discovered Myriad game?

If Elter had seen the Wally Bear and Chiller carts when that list was being created I know they would have been included and then DP would have copied it and so would NA and so would everyone else and no one would think any different. To be fair Frank who first placed Wally Bear in the "Prototypes AND one-of-a-kinds" section on DP not the "prototypes" section. Still none of that matters if they aren't were they are supposed to be. Don't tell me your argument boils down to "because someone else said so" it could have gone either way with this one. It was all a matter of timing.

You mentioned a few other points. I agree with the first 2 but so what neither of those determine if a game is a prototype or not. There are games out there for other systems where only 1 exists. There are games out there where the box has yet to be found or is not known to exist. Some games have been known to be released with no box.  Eli's Ladder for Atari 2600 was released with no box. A box is believed to exist for Atari 2600 Ultravision Karate but I don't think one has ever been found.

Then you said that they had no intention of releasing it? Now I'll have to disagree with you 100% on that one. They coded it and created a label what other plans could they have had? What about the AVE Wally Bear carts that have AGCI boards inside? Did AVE manufacture boards with AGCI on them?

You mentioned before that I have a vested interest and I guess that is true but I didn't buy this cartridge for a dollar. I paid more than the going rate for a prototype at the time especially one that was bit for bit the same as released. My interest in the cart existed prior to me owning it or I wouldn't have bought it. I could have sold it but I've kept it because I don't see this cart as your run of the mill average prototype cart.

AGCI coded the game,created a label, put together at least one working cart complete with a production label and then sold the project to another company. That is an R10 to me. So is Chiller.

I completely disagree with this statement.

This has been debated before, and many people shared my view on the game:  http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1749&highlight=AGCI+Wally

People can make up their minds on this however they want, but to me it should most certainly be considered a proto.

]]> http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=35&threadid=28459 2010-02-05T12:32:53 -05.00 Hades Rejects 36 Originally posted by: MrMark0673

 If you put these prototypes side by side next to a released cart sold at retail could you tell the difference? If you have a cart sent to a magazine with the same code and a production label then I would say it is a production cart.

Eproms or Roms don't matter either. Some released games have eproms and some have roms.

Numbers have never been part of the equation. Look at the 6in1 carts. How many Myriads were produced? It doesn't matter how many were produced. Perhaps 1 cart was produced to show that the cart was ready to go. If so then it was the only one they produced. The intentions or numbers of the production aren't as important as the fact that they produced it as a final product in code and in appearance.

I think you lost me.  The CMII that we know was created with every intention of being a widespread release, but funds fell through before they were able to sell it.  The AGCI Wally bear is a lone example with no known retail material to accompany it.  If a pallet shows up some day in a warehouse, I can totally imagine it being part of a test run.  With the sole example, and with where the game ended up in the end, I can only assume the copy you own was created by AGCI to present to AVE (or some other similar situation) in hopes that AVE would purchase the rights to the game.

The copy has a hand stickered EPROM as well, while as far as I know, all known Wally Bear games have masked ROM chips (bearing the AGCI name oddly enough).  To me, I guess it comes down to what you deem a prototype.  I have countless protos sent to magazine companies for review purposes that have the exact same code as the retail counterpart.  I have a hard time calling those anything other than prototypes as they were created with no intentions of ever being a retail product.
]]> http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=35&threadid=28459 2010-02-04T23:15:07 -05.00 Hades Rejects 36 Originally posted by: MrMark0673

You're being hyper literal, CMII was ready for a retail release, it was just shelved permanently.

Just posting the link again for those unfamiliar:  http://www.nintendoage.com/index.cfm?FuseAction=NES.Vie...

So you're going to tell me, that the one known labeled copy, with a hand stickered EPROM, listed in our database as being a prototype, should be considered a "test run" rather than a prototype because of the case and sticker?

AGCI was failing and sold their rights for the game to AVE.  There is a chance that they used the AGCI version to present to AVE before they finalized a deal for the rights, but there is no way I'm buying into the test run possibility.

I understand you own the game in question, so you have some vested interest in it, but it is one of two examples I can think of that are exactly what the OP was looking for.

Wally Bear/Chiller don't have a box (yet but who knows) but they do have label art.  If the games saw full production the Wally Bear and Chiller carts would be identical to those that would have been released.
That is not a prototype that is an early production cart that was not released. Same as CMII in my eyes,

CMII doesn't even have its own case or label. They were put inside Action 52 cases with Action 52 art. Elter had to put the boxes together and shrinkwrap the games. It was close to being ready for release but not 100%

Most companies do a test run before they fire up the presses on a full run. Could be 10 units or 100 but they do a sample run first. If there is a problem then they fix it before full production begins.

For me the bottom line is that had Chiller and Wally Bear gone into full production you would not be able to tell which cart was the last one that left the factory and those few examples that we have today. I consider them production carts that were not released for that reason.

]]> http://nintendoage.com/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=35&threadid=28459 2010-02-04T16:43:37 -05.00 Hades Rejects 36 Originally posted by: buyatari2

Port has a prototype. He doesn't have a labeled cart.

CMII was never "released" is that a prototype?

You're being hyper literal, CMII was ready for a retail release, it was just shelved permanently.

Just posting the link again for those unfamiliar:  http://www.nintendoage.com/index.cfm?FuseAction=NES.View&egID=2569&lgID=1126

So you're going to tell me, that the one known labeled copy, with a hand stickered EPROM, listed in our database as being a prototype, should be considered a "test run" rather than a prototype because of the case and sticker?

AGCI was failing and sold their rights for the game to AVE.  There is a chance that they used the AGCI version to present to AVE before they finalized a deal for the rights, but there is no way I'm buying into the test run possibility.

I understand you own the game in question, so you have some vested interest in it, but it is one of two examples I can think of that are exactly what the OP was looking for.
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